Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

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acidwhale

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Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jan 22, 2019 11:41 am

Hi,
waiting for my p4k, and trying to buy special lenses before the miracle arrives. Can you please help me and say, if those lenses suitable for the new p4k or the CCD is too big for them,( i think they are fine for the old bmpcc):

1. SUPER16 ANGENIEUX 1.3/15MM CMOUNT LENS BOLEX
2. COOKE 1.5/25MM CMOUNT LENS BMPCC 16MM
3. Angenieux 25mm f0.95 f/0.95 LENS C-mount Bell.

thank you very much
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WmsRan

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jan 22, 2019 5:47 pm

The sensor's CMOS, not CCD. Are you switching from a Digital Bolex?

It's safe to assume no c-mount lens will cover the sensor. Even if they do, the image quality at the edges is so compromised you'll have to punch in anyway.

I have several c-mount lenses and have tested them with an adapter on the BMPCC4k: Kinoptik, Schneider, Canon, Angenieux, and Kern-Palliard. None cover the sensor, not even the Super-16 lenses. Those that come close (Canon TV-16 zoom, Kinoptik 5.7mm) turn soft and dim around the edges.

Of course, you could use them in windowed HD mode, but you sacrifice the focal length and the 4K resolution and end up with a noisier image. You could also shoot the full sensor and then upscale slightly in Davinci. Some people made a petition for a 2.8K super-16 mode in firmware, and I would still like to see Blackmagic make that happen.
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acidwhale

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jan 22, 2019 8:57 pm

Thank you WmsRan for the great reply. The "image" seems to be clearer.
I understand that you have large experiense with vintage lenses.
So,
What is your advise?
How can i achive this vintage/film like look with the bmpcc 4k, what lenses do you recomend?




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Uli Plank

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jan 23, 2019 2:25 am

I own a whole collection of vintage lenses, from Russian Helios', Mir and Jupiters via Minolta Rokkors to Zeiss Contax, the amount of 'vintage' look goes down with time, with the Contax Zeiss looking most modern, but still not as clinical as contemporary ones. Rokkors, in particular, are very nice and relatively cheap, since they can't be adapted to Canon mount easily. The same goes for Canon FD. Here is my guide to Minolta lenses: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php ... ival-Guide

You can adapt all of these to MFT, either with a cheap adapter without optics or (most of them) with a focal reducer, since these are all photographic full frame lenses.

Regarding S-16 lenses, you should give them a try by cropping down, you should end up with a bit better resolution than from the BMPCC HD, but you can't use 4K.

I'm one of those who'd like a 2.8K mode in the Pocket 4K!
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WmsRan

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jan 23, 2019 3:41 am

Uli makes excellent points and reminds me that I love shooting stills on my Fuji X-Pro with Canon FD lenses. One of my favorites is a $20 Vivitar FD-mount zoom. I like it so much I thought about getting a Metabones adapter for the BMPCC4k and building out a prime set to use as cine lenses.

But I decided I would rather use native lenses. Adapters are contraptions, the FD mount is unwieldy, and still lenses breathe like crazy and have short focus throws. I would rather enjoy using that camera with lenses actually designed for it. If I want a vintage look I can use filters like black pro mist, which can cut down on the sharpness of modern lenses & sensors. But if I really want a film look, shooting film and getting a good scan is still the best option!
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Uli Plank

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jan 23, 2019 6:14 am

Well, not so many folks who are considering a BM camera would see shooting on film as an alternative these days. And that vintage look is more than some diffusion, it's about flare, colors and bokeh too.

And, IMHO, you generalize regarding breathing and focus throw. Most of my Zeiss Contax and Rokkors have generous focus throw, well beyond 180 degrees, and smooth as silk too. And breathing is different from lens to lens, some show very little and some are annoying. But with a resolution of 4K, it's not. a big problem to correct that tiny 'zoom' in post in the few cases where it is really distracting.
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jun 17, 2019 12:44 am

WmsRan said:
If I want a vintage look I can use filters like black pro mist, which can cut down on the sharpness of modern lenses & sensors.

While many BMPCC4K owners will tout their AF lenses as being convenient to use with the touch to focus feature, this is in reality a compromise to save a couple a seconds in the setup before you shoot, since continuous auto focus is not a feature of this camera.
Real cinema cameras are not auto focus, BM added this feature to appeal to existing DSLR users, and may never have the usability of the sophisticated AF system that bigger camera companies offers since that is not their market segment.
Cinema lenses use mechanical follow focus mechanisms for the most accurate control.

In eoshs.com (https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/26 ... sing-rings), cantsin said ...

"The problem is not just linearity, but the fact that focus-by-wire lenses do not have any hard stops at minimum and maximum focus distance. That makes them unusable for follow focus operation (since the physical position of the focus ring is no indication of the current focus point - with the camera resetting the focus point whenever it is being switched off and on again) and any other kind of planned/structured focus pulling."

I was wondering about how the vintage designed lenses get their image. A Pro photographer gave me a Hoya Diffusion filter at a camera show so I shot some images a half hour after sunset with a Voigtländer 17.5mm F/0.95 pretty wide open at ISO 2000 to see if I could get more of that vintage look.

Here is a shot of a former Burning Man statue in San Leandro, California:
Attachments
Keller_Twilight1A.jpg
Truth is Beauty by Marco Cochrane Voigtländer 17.5mm F/0.95
Keller_Twilight1A.jpg (870.97 KiB) Viewed 3213 times
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dondidnod

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jun 17, 2019 12:46 am

Here is a shot of a former Burning Man statue in San Leandro, California with a Hoya Diffusion filter:
Attachments
Keller_Twilight2A.jpg
Truth is Beauty by Marco Cochrane Voigtländer 17.5mm F/0.95 Hoya Diffusion filter
Keller_Twilight2A.jpg (794.69 KiB) Viewed 3211 times
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Jean Capdouzey

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jun 17, 2019 2:04 am

acidwhale wrote:Hi,
waiting for my p4k, and trying to buy special lenses before the miracle arrives. Can you please help me and say, if those lenses suitable for the new p4k or the CCD is too big for them,( i think they are fine for the old bmpcc):

1. SUPER16 ANGENIEUX 1.3/15MM CMOUNT LENS BOLEX
2. COOKE 1.5/25MM CMOUNT LENS BMPCC 16MM
3. Angenieux 25mm f0.95 f/0.95 LENS C-mount Bell.

thank you very much


Awesome. Many C-Mount lenses do really well on the P4K. If only though Grant Petty bothered to listen to his customers and considered the requests for a Super 16 crop mode..... :roll:

There is a huge group on Facebook dedicated to these lenses. https://www.facebook.com/groups/cmountm43/
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Jean Capdouzey

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jun 17, 2019 2:06 am

Australian Image wrote:These old C-mount lenses are really for novelty use nowadays, there are much better manual lenses that you can get that would serve you better.


Nonsense. This is your isolated irrelevant opinion. Over 8500 people disagree with you. :lol:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cmountm43/
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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jun 17, 2019 2:47 am

Yes and no Ray, the 25mm Angie vignettes on the smaller Panna GH1 Sensor, so yes you could crop in post, see: .

The 15mm is going to be much worse, more like a port hole. However, should work fine in the HD window mode.
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grebefrux

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 1:55 pm

acidwhale wrote:Hi,
waiting for my p4k, and trying to buy special lenses before the miracle arrives. Can you please help me and say, if those lenses suitable for the new p4k or the CCD is too big for them,( i think they are fine for the old bmpcc):

1. SUPER16 ANGENIEUX 1.3/15MM CMOUNT LENS BOLEX
2. COOKE 1.5/25MM CMOUNT LENS BMPCC 16MM
3. Angenieux 25mm f0.95 f/0.95 LENS C-mount Bell.

thank you very much


Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those lenses actually work with the HD window mode, as it seems to record an area smaller than a 16mm frame.

Speaking of which, for those who tried (my pocket is still in preorder), is this mode really this smaller than 16mm ? If my math is good, the area covered should be 8.9x5mm (IC 10.2), while standard 16 is 10.26x7.49 (IC 12.7), can someone confirm ? Infos on this window mode are quite vague.
This would mean the image is 1.24x smaller than standard 16, so for FF lovers, a 10mm focal length (common for 16mm) would have an angle of view in this window mode closer to a 42mm on 24x36, while for 16mm the AOV would be closer to 34mm. This looks quite workable to me, as I was used with the OG pocket to shoot with an Angenieux 15-150, which at its wider end has an AOV of a 45mm in FF. Now I would use a 9.5-57 instead.

Of course a lesser crop would be better, best for me would be in Ultra 16 size to be able to use standard 16 lenses. I remember reading a workaround of someone using safe areas in UHD for framing, has someone here done the same ?

It's a shame most people don't get how cheap, light and versatile 16mm zoom lenses are. To me they are the perfect choice for run and gun style of shooting in fictions.
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rick.lang

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Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 4:00 pm

Your math is fine for BMPCC4K dimensions of the HD sensor crop. It’s a small photosite for a cinema camera. Significantly smaller than the BMPCC.


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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 4:10 pm

Yes, 16mm and S16 lenses will work on the Pocket 4K in the HD Window mode, and yes the Primes are lighter, but the zooms can be both smaller/lighter, but quite a few of the better zooms are longer and heavier than a MFT Zoom. If you want to just shoot S16, using the Pocket 4K is not the best option. The Micro Cinema camera is a better option, nice image smaller camera. But for a more complete ready to use camera, co spider the Ursa Boradcast, can be Shoulder mounted for run and gun, just add the BMD PL mount, and you are good to go... However, this is just my opinion, others have their views and it is all good. :mrgreen:
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grebefrux

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 7:43 pm

Denny Smith wrote: If you want to just shoot S16, using the Pocket 4K is not the best option. The Micro Cinema camera is a better option, nice image smaller camera. But for a more complete ready to use camera, co spider the Ursa Boradcast, can be Shoulder mounted for run and gun, just add the BMD PL mount, and you are good to go... However, this is just my opinion, others have their views and it is all good. :mrgreen:
Cheers


I actually pondered this a lot before ordering the pocket 4k. I wanted to be able to use my 16mm zooms. The URSA was way out of budget, the micro was very tempting but it is hard not to go for 120fps + Resolve Studio licence + 4K (even if I rarely shoot this resolution) + an nice LCD screen for not much more bucks...
But yes, the Pocket sensor size is far from ideal unless you use m4/3 lenses or speedboosters (eew). If you want to use serious cine glass (what this cam should actually be made for), either 35 or 16, you'll always be slightly more restricted with the wides.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 6:04 am

Yes, i was tempted also, but without the 2K/S16 crop window, it was a no go
I went with the Ursa Broadcast, which fits for most of my shooting jobs, and can use my S16 PL lenses, in addition to an Angenieux ENG Zoom I have.
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grebefrux

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 10:39 am

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, i was tempted also, but without the 2K/S16 crop window, it was a no go


You're right for S16 lenses. But for standard 16mm, I think the pocket4k might offer a slight advantage for vintage glass lovers like me... Here's my take :
With standard 16 lenses (zooms and wide angles mostly), with any Blackmagic camera you use, you'll always have to crop.
On the URSA/Micro/OG pocket, after cropping, the final resolution will be under 1920x1080.
Only the pocket 4k and Micro Studio will give you over 2K final resolution after cropping.

Depending on the final delivery, this might not change anything, but it's always nice to be able to have some more room in post-production ;)
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 5:31 pm

Yes, I agree, the HD crop window on the Pocket 4K would work for standard 16mm lenses. But I do not believe the HD crop area is 2K, but rather a little smaller, around 1.8K after you process the signal, you loose about 10-15% of the edge area, from what I understand. But still, this is close enough to get a good 16mm area image. As Ridk pointed out, the smaller photo sites used on the new Pocket 4K sensor makes this useable. A S16 window, would give you 2.5K initial resolution, so you end up with 2K+ after processing the signal.
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 7:25 pm

Denny Smith wrote: But I do not believe the HD crop area is 2K, but rather a little smaller, around 1.8K after you process the signal, you loose about 10-15% of the edge area, from what I understand.
Cheers


You're right, I think the HD window is only FHD so just under 2K, but I was thinking of a "custom" crop using UHD and safe area for framing while shooting, and then crop it in post, like I suggested earlier with this post in mind :http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?22680-Pocket-4k-Super16-band-aid From what I estimated, the HD window is 1.24x smaller than a standard 16mm frame, so a DIY crop in UHD would give something around 2380x1339, just over 2K.
I don't know if it's worth the hassle, but maybe sometimes 1.24x more angle of view and resolution might make the difference. Still, it shows in theory you can have a 2K+ workflow with standard 16 lenses, and there's not a lot of camera with this ability around.

Too sad I didn't receive my pocket 4k yet, I'd love to try this...
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 11:34 pm

The diagonal of a UHD crop in the Pocket 4K is around 16mm, so inside the safe area markers Harry was discussing might work for Zeiss Super Speeds up to 16mm, but not anything wider, as the image circle drops to 15.75 for the 12mm and smaller on the 9.5 which just barley covers S16.
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostThu Jun 20, 2019 4:20 pm

I might have understand it wrongly, but from what I've read on the post I linked, a 65% safe area of the full sensor gives a 12.324x6.5mm frame, giving us a 13.93 diagonal.
UHD being slightly narrower, the same 65% safe guide setting should give us a 11.55x6.5 frame with a 13.25 diagonal. This is quite close to the 12.70 diagonal of standard 16, and well under Super 16 (14.54 diagonal). This is to be tested, but a lot of 16 lenses should only have a slight vignette with this framing. I don't know if the safe area also works with frame guides, but if so, any ratio other than 16/9 should result in an even smaller diagonal.

Again this mean to be confirmed in practice, and I'm surprised no one has yet... No one has a P4k plus an old 16mm zoom or wide angle laying around ?
I don't know when my P4k will actually ship, but I already have some 16mm glass I can try on for those who are interested.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostFri Jun 21, 2019 2:26 am

I tried some S16 Super Speed Primes, including a Zeiss SS Mk3 and Illumina S16 lenses, on an Oly PenF MFT Camera set to 16:9, with a slightly smaller sensor than the new Pocket 4K, and the vignetting on the 9.5mm was a porthole, the 12mm was pillar cropped on both sides by vignetting, the 16mm a little less, and might fit in a 65% crop. The 25mm just about covered the sensor, with a little image falloff on the sides.

I do not have these lenses anymore, nor do I have a Pocket 4K. I still have an Elite 9.5mm which just covers a 1-inch sensor on the Micro Studio. The diagonal projected image circle for these S16 Super Speed lenses is available from online video lens sites.
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Flavio Filho

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jul 15, 2019 1:07 pm

grebefrux wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Yes, i was tempted also, but without the 2K/S16 crop window, it was a no go


You're right for S16 lenses. But for standard 16mm, I think the pocket4k might offer a slight advantage for vintage glass lovers like me... Here's my take :
With standard 16 lenses (zooms and wide angles mostly), with any Blackmagic camera you use, you'll always have to crop.
On the URSA/Micro/OG pocket, after cropping, the final resolution will be under 1920x1080.
Only the pocket 4k and Micro Studio will give you over 2K final resolution after cropping.

Depending on the final delivery, this might not change anything, but it's always nice to be able to have some more room in post-production ;)


Hi

Just joining this thread as I’m having to think about what to do regarding my beloved Vintage 16mm Schneiders.

@Grebefux: I have standard 16mm Schneiders, 10mm, 16mm, 25mm and 50mm. All of them works perfect on any aperture on my BMPCC (1st Gen), except for the 10mm one. That one does vignette.

I still didn’t buy my p4K, but will do this year. But I need to invest in a Zoom lens as well. So I’m in between selling all my 16mm schneiders and invest in a S35 zoom lens. And bid farewell to 16mm world.

Or keep them and buy a Zeiss 10-100 S16 and use on windowed HD. At least would have 120fps. And expend less than I would with a S35.

In reality, the last thing a cinematographer wants is to sell any lens. :P

But why oh why they chose that sensor size? Didn’t they think of our poor souls loaded with 16mm lens, craving for 4K?
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jul 15, 2019 1:41 pm

Jean Capdouzey wrote:
acidwhale wrote:Hi,
waiting for my p4k, and trying to buy special lenses before the miracle arrives. Can you please help me and say, if those lenses suitable for the new p4k or the CCD is too big for them,( i think they are fine for the old bmpcc):

1. SUPER16 ANGENIEUX 1.3/15MM CMOUNT LENS BOLEX
2. COOKE 1.5/25MM CMOUNT LENS BMPCC 16MM
3. Angenieux 25mm f0.95 f/0.95 LENS C-mount Bell.

thank you very much


Awesome. Many C-Mount lenses do really well on the P4K. If only though Grant Petty bothered to listen to his customers and considered the requests for a Super 16 crop mode..... :roll:

There is a huge group on Facebook dedicated to these lenses. https://www.facebook.com/groups/cmountm43/


Out of curiosity, what's the difference between a super16 crop mode and simply shoot with the safe area guides on and crop all your clips in post, with the advantage of adjusting your crop to the actual vignetting of the lens you're using?
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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jul 15, 2019 2:44 pm

FWIW, I regularly shoot with a Kodak Cine Ektar 25mm C Mount lens and have had no vignetting.
It's a really nice lens actually, pretty crisp and rich colours. I can mix it in with shots from my Voigtlander 25mm m4/3rds lens and it is not at all jarring.
I also have old Leica M mount lenses, which are both tiny and light. The trouble is none of them are really wide enough. For lightweight and small I use a modern Olympus m4/3rds 17mm.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostMon Jul 15, 2019 11:35 pm

The original Oly 12mm MFT lens is also small and light.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostTue Jul 16, 2019 5:00 am

Dear Flávio,
regarding the 10mm Schneider, there are actually two versions. The one which partially silver and has a filter thread of 55mm, a Schneider Cinegon 10mm f1.8 doesn’t vignette at all on S-16.
A very nice lens with low distortion too, but hard to find these days.
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Flavio Filho

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostWed Jul 24, 2019 10:58 am

Uli Plank wrote:Dear Flávio,
regarding the 10mm Schneider, there are actually two versions. The one which partially silver and has a filter thread of 55mm, a Schneider Cinegon 10mm f1.8 doesn’t vignette at all on S-16.
A very nice lens with low distortion too, but hard to find these days.


Hi Uli Plank.

Thanks for the reply.
Did you mean the Cinegon doesn't vignette in the P4K?
I have a 10mm cinegon that vignettes in the BMPCCHD.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostThu Jul 25, 2019 4:39 pm

I should not vignette in HD window, but will in any other window or full sensor setting.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Lenses for the Bmpcc4k:

PostFri Jul 26, 2019 6:28 am

It will not vignette on the old BMPCC with S-16, while the other Schneider 10mm does.
Can't say about the BMPCC 4K.
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