BMPCC4K start shipping

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 3:28 pm

Sure, I understand both those points.
And I don't disagree with them.
My personal preference is not to announce prototypes and accepting pre-orders months before the product can be delivered.
I work in music and buy from very, very small one and two many modular synth makers. Typically they announce a new module and it is the stores within days. * I know the product is much cheaper to produce, but still, tiny workshop makers still have to deliver thousands globally on product launch.
One or two companies announce prototypes that often end up not being available for purchase until many months, sometimes years later. The same frustration is expressed by customers as has been expressed in the BMD forum.
So I guess the question is.....
Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?
Chris Whitten
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 4:01 pm

Chris Whitten wrote:Sure, I understand both those points.
And I don't disagree with them.
My personal preference is not to announce prototypes and accepting pre-orders months before the product can be delivered.
I work in music and buy from very, very small one and two many modular synth makers. Typically they announce a new module and it is the stores within days. * I know the product is much cheaper to produce, but still, tiny workshop makers still have to deliver thousands globally on product launch.
One or two companies announce prototypes that often end up not being available for purchase until many months, sometimes years later. The same frustration is expressed by customers as has been expressed in the BMD forum.
So I guess the question is.....
Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?


Fully agreed
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 2251
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 4:30 pm

Chris Whitten wrote:Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?


Grant Petty himself in the presentation had said that BMD got asked so many times when they will announce a 4k successor to the pocket, that they decided to present it earlier than they would have liked to do.
And BMD has never taken any money for pre-orders. If you paid for your pre-order, the money went to your dealer, not to BMD. I have pre-ordered the BMCC, the UM46k and the PCC4k. Never did I have to pay for the pre-order with my dealer.
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 5:59 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:If you paid for your pre-order, the money went to your dealer, not to BMD. I have pre-ordered the BMCC, the UM46k and the PCC4k. Never did I have to pay for the pre-order with my dealer.


That's a very fair point and in my view a plus point for BMD.
Offline

Jim Giberti

  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:03 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 7:24 pm

Swissified wrote:Does BMD require pre-orders to finish their new products? If not, why not announce them when the prototype is finished and at least some production has begun?


OK, as much as we would all like everything to happen the way we'd personally like them to happen, here's a brief history, from one person's personal experience with the camera and the process - that some people seem confused about.

First, many people watched the announcement of the P4K as Grant displayed the fully functional prototype in a live stream event with a live audience - right down to shooting said audience by attaching a Samsung T5.

Then some of us ordered the P4K immediately - like in minutes, because we understood what kind of demand this game changing camera would have. And we all knew that day, that we would have to wait until Fall before we got them - and life went on.

Then many of us who did this, got them when we expected.

Then after producing with them we were genuinely rewarded by the experience. They are, in a rare sense, everything and more than many of us expected.

Then we wrote about how great the camera is and, through the magic of the internet, more and more people ordered them.

Then, because of the vagaries of new camera production and supply (that virtually none of us knows because that's beyond our purview) people, who are justifiably excited to get the camera they ordered, have gotten frustrated.

And all the time, by all accounts from buyers and retailers, the orders have kept streaming in. So more and more people are waiting.

To recap:

P4K gets launched with a functioning protype, ready for production.
Many, many people preorder it around the world.
Many get them, according to BlackMagic's timeline, love them and say so on the internet (where a cheesy video can go viral in a few minutes.)
The now proven success of BlackMagic's vision means more and more orders.
Regular guys try and explain why that's not the sign of a faulty camera or bad planning - just a really big success and sometimes unexpected demand can overwhelm a supply chain.

And finally, to reward your patience, I say again: The P4K is the best small camera yet produced.
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 7:45 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:And finally, to reward your patience, I say again: The P4K is the best small camera yet produced.


It also seems like the demand for these little guys is going UP instead of down as people are seeing footage from it.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 7:46 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:And finally, to reward your patience, I say again: The P4K is the best small camera yet produced.


And I thank you for that exciting thought! Definitely something to look forward to!
Offline

Jim Giberti

  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:03 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostTue Feb 19, 2019 11:21 pm

Swissified wrote:And I thank you for that exciting thought! Definitely something to look forward to!


You are very welcome.
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:13 am

Jim Giberti wrote:
First, many people watched the announcement of the P4K as Grant displayed the fully functional prototype in a live stream event with a live audience - right down to shooting said audience by attaching a Samsung T5.

Then some of us ordered the P4K immediately - like in minutes, because we understood what kind of demand this game changing camera would have. And we all knew that day, that we would have to wait until Fall before we got them - and life went on.

Then many of us who did this, got them when we expected.


With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.
I am in a much different time zone (UK). I ordered around 12 hours after the official launch announcement.
The word was originally 'shipping in September'. I finally got my camera around mid-December.
No, I didn't expect to get it a couple of weeks before Christmas, I expected to get it beginning of November maybe.
The fact remains, without my having any insider knowledge, many small companies actually announce products either when they are in the stores, or a few weeks away from being in the stores. Not 9 months from being in stores.
Chris Whitten
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:18 am

Chris Whitten wrote:many small companies actually announce products either when they are in the stores, or a few weeks away from being in the stores. Not 9 months from being in stores.


I definitely agree with you on this. I think it is simply not good practise to be more than a few weeks away from store availability of new 'hot' products. It could taint reputation or hand competitors an advantage, especially if it is the norm with that company.
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:54 am

Chris Whitten wrote:With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.
I am in a much different time zone (UK). I ordered around 12 hours after the official launch announcement.
The word was originally 'shipping in September'. I finally got my camera around mid-December.
No, I didn't expect to get it a couple of weeks before Christmas, I expected to get it beginning of November maybe.


I'm also in a different time zone. I ordered mine in Apr when the first pre-orders were announced and received mine in Oct. I was expecting later, but was pleasantly surprised by the actual date. As has been pointed out many times, much has to do with the camera store involved and very likely when they put in their orders ie not waiting for a large order batch before putting in the order.

The fact remains, without my having any insider knowledge, many small companies actually announce products either when they are in the stores, or a few weeks away from being in the stores. Not 9 months from being in stores.


I'm not sure what companies you're talking about, but every photographic company displays their new products at major photo/electronics exhibitions and these usually are months away from actual release dates. The smaller the company the more they want to build up anticipation and get pre-orders. And how do you think reviews are undertaken, often with caveats that the product is not the final version?

Just a few examples. Tilta announced their new accessory system for the BMPCC4K some time back and it's yet to be available for purchase. SmallRig announce many products and offer pre-orders with fairly long lead times. Every digital camera that I've owned in the last decade has been announced at least six months before it's become available for purchase.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:58 am

Swissified wrote:...or hand competitors an advantage...


Not a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening. These things are in development for years in advance of announcement. The development of the BMPCC4K probably started before the BMPCC went on sale.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 10:26 am

Australian Image wrote:I ordered mine in Apr when the first pre-orders were announced and received mine in Oct. I was expecting later, but was pleasantly surprised by the actual date. As has been pointed out many times, much has to do with the camera store involved and very likely when they put in their orders ie not waiting for a large order batch before putting in the order.


We seem to be on repeat.
Yes, mine was a pre-order within 12 hours of the announcement. I got the camera two weeks before Christmas. I would have loved to have it in October like you. I ordered from CVP. I highly DOUBT they waited until they had a big enough order to place.

Australian Image wrote:I'm not sure what companies you're talking about, but every photographic company displays their new products at major photo/electronics exhibitions and these usually are months away from actual release dates.


I mentioned it a couple of posts ago (still on repeat?).
I work in music. We also have very large and important trade shows. We also have very small companies operating at the limits of new technology. Many new products from these very small companies probably have a larger global customer demand than a new camera from BMD.
It's only relevant because many of these products are available on the launch date, or a few weeks later. A few companies are notorious for announcing products many months or a year before they are available to buy. Those companies get a lot of criticism for that.
It's just another perspective from a similar creative industry, based on similar sized companies selling similar tech products.
Chris Whitten
Offline

Justin Jackson

  • Posts: 619
  • Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:50 am

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 4:53 pm

To your point, Rakesh, the margin has to be thin or possibly even at a loss (that maybe they didnt anticipate but cant go back on now)? I wonder if we will read about this in a couple years... how they grossly underestimated the desire for this camera and could have sold it for $3K and people would be snapping it up and made a lot more money, and possibly that they maybe went way too low on the cost of this. Like someone else said, I feel like part of the reason for such a low cost with the free Resolve is the plan to get Resolve out in more hands, which I suspect will happen. A lot of people buy this camera and will try it, and many will potentially convert. But some will buy it because of the addition of the $300 software in the price, with plans to use Resolve anyway.

Now they just need to keep Fusion enticing enough with strong updates to its capabilities to be competitive with AE and the other options in the market.
Custom DIY AMD1950x 16-core/32-thread, liquid cooled, 64GB 3600Mhz RAM, 950Pro-512GB NVMe os/apps, 2x500GB 850 Evo RAID 0 SATA3, Zotac 1070 8GB video, USB 3.1Gen2 RAID0 2x4TB, 2x2TB Crucial MX500 SSD SATA3.
Offline

JordanMcgehee

  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 5:12 pm

I just confirmed from my retailer there has been a shortage of parts for the camera and that they have not been given a date. They have not received any since January. They said this has something to do with the Chineses New Year (although that was 15 days ago so I don't see how that is relevant anymore). Someone from Blackmagic care to confirm?
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 5:29 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:To your point, Rakesh, the margin has to be thin or possibly even at a loss (that maybe they didnt anticipate but cant go back on now)?


I seriously doubt that BMD is selling anything at a loss except its software. It's been around for quite a while; it knows its costs and margins.

Like someone else said, I feel like part of the reason for such a low cost with the free Resolve is the plan to get Resolve out in more hands, which I suspect will happen. A lot of people buy this camera and will try it, and many will potentially convert.

The free Resolve license is both a benefit and a carrot. The carrot part comes from enticing users to invest in additional Resolve specific hardware, like for Mac users the egpu line, and for everyone various panels and I/O boxes...

Now they just need to keep Fusion enticing enough with strong updates to its capabilities to be competitive with AE and the other options in the market.


BMD's already passed that bar. It's now up to Adobe to update AE to catch up; while the learning curve in Fusion is higher than in AE, as far as capabilities go, it's already competitive with Nuke. Admittedly Nuke still has an edge, but look at the user opinions of it... it's a very good bet that any shop relying on Nuke Studio right now is eyeing Resolve and already debating the transition.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were several Nuke shops out there already trying it out and making requests to the BMD folks.

And it's very obvious that BMD has been listening to pros using Resolve, so...
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 7:33 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:To your point, Rakesh, the margin has to be thin or possibly even at a loss (that maybe they didnt anticipate but cant go back on now)? I wonder if we will read about this in a couple years... how they grossly underestimated the desire for this camera and could have sold it for $3K and people would be snapping it up and made a lot more money, and possibly that they maybe went way too low on the cost of this.


I doubt that very much. I wouldn't have bought it had it cost US$3000 and I suspect much the same would have applied to many others. That US$3000 would have had it competing with far too many other cameras and it would have been lambasted by everyone for being too expensive and offering too little.

Those criticisms about EVF, moveable LCD, IBIS etc would have become very severe indeed and potentially justified at that price point. Blackmagic hasn't grown the way it has by making losses. To stay in business you have to make a profit.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 7:49 pm

How do you know when CVP put in their orders? Very large companies tend to consolidate orders and place a bulk order to save administrative costs across the supply chain (ie ordering, invoicing, receipt, warehousing, dispatch etc). As has been pointed out, small retailers have done much better than the big players. And retailers will make all manner of excuses to customers so that they don't look bad. So yeah, I have to repeat what I and others have stated previously.

You keep making throwaway statements but provide no specifics. The 'music' industry says nothing, you could be talking about some trumpet maker that produces a new product every 10 years and blows their horn a week before it's available. I have to keep repeating because you don't provide actual examples. At least I provide examples.

And you keep saying that you don't know, yet keep making hard and fast statements about how it should be done. I've worked in these industries, including new product development, and understand how things work. It's not as easy as you think.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

aglyons

  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:19 am
  • Real Name: Adrian Lyons

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 8:47 pm

A little insider info that may help people understand why the P4K release was........questionable.

In all honesty, BMD was caught by surprise. They did not at all expect the camera to blow up as much as it did. They originally forecast much smaller numbers of orders. But when things hit the fan and orders started flowing in like mad, they had to take measures.

BMD discontinued a number of products and retooled production lines to help ramp up production. Supply lines who were initially told that only 'X' number of parts would be ordered were suddenly facing 4-5 times as many. Then the assembly needed to be expanded. All of this happened at very short notice.

I have been told that the goal BMD has set for themselves is to have all outstanding orders fulfilled and a comfortable level of stock on hand by NAB.

Hopefully, that alleviates some stresses that people are having by still waiting for theirs. I know it doesn't do much to get your order delivered. Just know that they are building them as fast as they can and future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 8:56 pm

aglyons wrote: future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.


If that is the lessons taken from this exercise then I wish BMD all the best in their endevours. I feel much happier after reading this message and some others too. Really looking forward to putting the first battery in, the CFast card and using the coming camera.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10544
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 8:57 pm

Agreed. It’s nice to be competitive but it’s sweet to be able to undercut everyone for the features offered. There are several features missing, true, but at that ridiculous price, you concentrate your attention on the marvelous camera you’ve got in your hand... and consider adding another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 2251
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:00 pm

Swissified wrote:
aglyons wrote: future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.


If that is the lessons taken from this exercise then I wish BMD all the best in their endevours. I feel much happier after reading this message and some others too. Really looking forward to putting the first battery in, the CFast card and using the coming camera.


Believe me Stephen, the camera is totally worth the wait - you'll feel like a child again when your box arrives. ;-)
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 448
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:05 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
Believe me Stephen, the camera is totally worth the wait - you'll feel like a child again when your box arrives. ;-)


I can second that!
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:05 pm

rick.lang wrote:Agreed. It’s nice to be competitive but it’s sweet to be able to undercut everyone for the features offered. There are several features missing, true, but at that ridiculous price, you concentrate your attention on the marvelous camera you’ve got in your hand... and consider adding another.


Exactly... I'm still eyeing one of these as a gimbal/b-cam.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostWed Feb 20, 2019 9:29 pm

GREAT! Just the feeling I am looking forward to!

I have some Canon batteries at the ready, a dual charger. Cfast cards from Angelbird, an external Rode Video Mic Pro, which also of course works wonders for video on my Olympus.

I had thought of external batteries and a Wise SSD, which looks fantastic. But to begin with I want to see how the Canon batteries last with the filming I intend to do. Hopefully my 4 128 Cfast will be enough otherwise I probably eventally will get a Wise SSD as well.

Practising now on a copy of Resolve for which I have purchased some DELUTS, LUTS. I hope to have the camera before our next trip.
Offline

Jim Giberti

  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:03 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 12:52 am

Believe me Stephen, the camera is totally worth the wait - you'll feel like a child again when your box arrives. ;-)

I think you nailed it Robert.
It's a genuinely fun camera to shoot with.
Last edited by Jim Giberti on Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Jim Giberti

  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:03 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 12:56 am

Swissified wrote:With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.


How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.
I'm assuming you're not a masseur and I assure you I'm not.
Offline

Brian Farmer

  • Posts: 61
  • Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:09 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 2:45 am

I can see them at BMD headquarters...

Damnit Grant! (As he takes a swig of his Fosters beer!) We should have added a thousand dollars to the price of the Pocket 4k! :)

Seriously, It is the hottest camera in the industry! So this is the price we pay! Im waiting too! Not liking it either!
Offline

Colourberry

  • Posts: 152
  • Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 7:12 am
  • Real Name: Simon Bailey

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 3:03 am

Hate to break it to you but Australians don't drink Fosters. At all.

20 years ago maybe but nobody buys fosters in Australia.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Offline
User avatar

timbutt2

  • Posts: 1144
  • Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 3:54 am

This was addressed today at the Orlando, FL Expo & Resolve Sessions. They are working on manufacturing them as fast as they can. It's a very high demand item.

And, after today I'm very much considering one as it still would make a great addition to my camera pack. Yet, I wouldn't have an issue waiting based on the fact that I understand the high demand. It's now the perfect entry level BMD camera. Thus a lot of first time purchasers are buying it. Thus the high amount of pre-orders to fill.

At this point I would say patience. The camera will come. Blackmagic is getting them manufactured each day.
"Movies are not watched. They are an encounter with a life's experience not your own." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini 4.6K EF & Cinema Camera 2.5K EF
Computers: iMac 5K (Late 2015) & MacBook Pro Retina 15.4in (Mid 2018)
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10544
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 4:37 am

I’m one of thousands patiently waiting, but the clock is ticking as Grant has sent emails out before NAB as updates of existing items. Any new product may wait until he has the media’s attention on Monday 9:30 am in Las Vegas, but a week or so before NAB 2019, it wouldn’t surprise me to read, “the BMPCC4K is now shipping with firmware 7.0 that includes BRAW release 1.0.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by rick.lang on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rick Lang
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 4:46 am

rick.lang wrote: ...it wouldn’t surprise me to read, “the BMPCC4K is now shipping with firmware 7.0 that includes BRAW release 1.0.”


That would be nice. Even nicer if MSI would send back by laptop before then.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:28 am

rick.lang wrote:it wouldn’t surprise me to read, “the BMPCC4K is now shipping with firmware 7.0 that includes BRAW release 1.0.”


That would indeed be a bonus to add to the end of the waiting. As I think that is going to be an amazing format.
Offline

Swissified

  • Posts: 190
  • Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:23 pm
  • Real Name: Stephen Butterworth

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:35 am

Jim Giberti wrote:
Swissified wrote:With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.


How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.
I'm assuming you're not a masseur and I assure you I'm not.


Not you:Chris Whitten wrote that on one of his answers....... so no no masseur
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 7:58 am

Australian Image wrote:How do you know when CVP put in their orders?


They had hundreds of orders very quickly. So my question is: why wait until you have enough orders - as you have suggested.

You keep making throwaway statements but provide no specifics. The 'music' industry says nothing, you could be talking about some trumpet maker that produces a new product every 10 years and blows their horn a week before it's available. I have to keep repeating because you don't provide actual examples. At least I provide examples.


I have, but you don't read them. I gave specific examples - modular synthesisers. They have become a sales phenomenon in the music industry. Most of the makers are one and two man operations, but they sell thousands globally. They have multiple product lines and produce batches of new designs at least annually, if not more often. I already posted this, so why you are exampling a trumpet company oferring one product every ten years is beyond me.

Australian Image wrote:And you keep saying that you don't know, yet keep making hard and fast statements about how it should be done.


No (sigh) not at all. I am making SUGGESTIONS about how things COULD be done differently based on my experiences in another creative industry. I asked why BMD could not announce new products when they are past the prototype stage, and closer to being delivered. I don't think these are unreasonable suggestions or questions.
I have collaborated on new products. The last one, a drum sampler from Roland Corp that was announced at the biggest annual trade show in late January 2018 and was in shops that April.
Last edited by Chris Whitten on Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chris Whitten
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:02 am

Jim Giberti wrote:How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.


Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.
BMD announced September shipping. I ordered within 12 hours of the trade show announcement. I got mine in mid-December. Like many others I suspect, I had anticipated the usual BMD over optimism, I did not anticipate ordering in early April and receiving in mid-December.
Chris Whitten
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 429
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:07 am

aglyons wrote:and future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.


See, that's all I was talking about.
Chris Whitten
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:34 am

Chris Whitten wrote:They had hundreds of orders very quickly. So my question is: why wait until you have enough orders - as you have suggested.


What exactly is 'very quickly'? Businesses like to maximise their orders so that they minimise their operating costs which flow down throughout the supply chain. How much money did CVP get up front from their orders, for example? No deposit? A meagre deposit? I paid fully for mine.

I have, but you don't read them. I gave specific examples - modular synthesisers. They have become a sales phenomenon in the music industry. Most of the makers are one and two man operations, but they sell thousands globally. They have multiple product lines and produce batches of new designs at least annually, if not more often. I already posted this, so why you are exampling a trumpet company oferring one product every ten years is beyond me.


Wow! Modular synthesisers. B&H alone apparently has at least a 1000 BMPCC4K orders, add to that every other camera store in the world. The camera has attracted the attention of not just cinematographers, but vloggers, photographers starting out in video and those interested in just video alone. It's captured not just the interest of one demographic, but numerous ones. And many are buying more than one body. Your analogy is rather frail. The trumpet analogy went over your head.

Ugh not at all. I am making SUGGESTIONS about how things COULD be done differently based on the experiences of another creative industry. I asked why BMD could not announce new products when they are past the prototype stage, and closer to being delivered. I don't think these are unreasonable suggestions or questions.
I have collaborated on new products. The last one, a drum sampler from Roland Corp that was announced at the biggest annual trade show in late January 2018 and was in shops that April.


Blackmagic is doing what every other camera company does, announces their forthcoming products at major trade shows, not just to generate interest from potential buyers, including pre-orders, but to garner information on how the product is received and whether potential changes can be made before final production. It's part of product design and development. Comparing that to the music industry is apples vs oranges.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 2251
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:57 am

Chris Whitten wrote:
Jim Giberti wrote:How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.


Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.
BMD announced September shipping. I ordered within 12 hours of the trade show announcement. I got mine in mid-December. Like many others I suspect, I had anticipated the usual BMD over optimism, I did not anticipate ordering in early April and receiving in mid-December.


See: I ordered mine while the live presentation still was going on and got it at the beginning of October. That should tell you how many pre-orders were pouring in, in the first few hours alone.
And I did expect to get my camera in February 2019 and was very surprised then.
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 2251
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 9:06 am

And about modular synthesizer:
You are trying to tell us that something like this:
https://www.gear4music.at/de/Recording- ... antis/21TX
Made of standard components in a Square box with no parts with tight tolerances and lots of space inside can be compared in high volume manufacturing complexity to a camera? Really?
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 10:58 am

JCStudios wrote:WOAH HAHA! 1,000...? THAT'S NUTS. Okay, okay - I'm going to cancel my order. I'll be in the grave before I see a P4K from B&H - guess I should've called them. My best bet may just be the local camera shop that I got my URSA from. I think they said their wait-list is around 10-15. Granted, they haven't gotten very many units, that's a far cry from 1,000. WOW. Thank you all so much for the information. This has been very helpful!


Hey James, it might pay to find out how far up the list you are and how quickly they will be filling those thousand orders, first. If you are in the top 100 and they are going be filling the next 500 in the next two weeks, you would be close. Often companies might have a beginning of the year holiday lul, and ramp up production by/in Feb. So, they might even come faster now.

I was really hoping they would have caught up the back log by now. I was told last year the back border was mid February or March. Thought I'd wait to see what came at NAB before ordering. If the back log is going be months by NAB, that plan certainly backfired.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 11:18 am

Now you know how I feel Chris. :)

It is really different, but your point is to announce when you are ready, which is valid. I like to be able to order the day I see it, if its worth buying (which isn't obvious without a good review and a play of it, so all that needs to be sorted week one, review out with announcement, play with one at the dealer next week who has had a sample shipped to him as first ones come out). But that's very difficult, you don't known what you are dealing with as far as demand, and if you have 20k units made and the competition releases something way better at the same time, and undercuts your cost, you could be sitting with the 20k units for a while, and have to negotiate an unit production volume down turn with your manufacturing partners.

But, of course there are other problems. You may have your camera ready to use the sensor, which is supposed to be production ready by the date, but things don't tap out at the sensor factory and the sensor production design isn't finish, or the plant has delays. So, you have to sit around waiting for the missing part to turn up and start delivery 6 months after you planned, when everything was supposed to be ready. These sorts of things happen. But BM also would want to promote what was coming at the main show of the year, even if it was a few months early and gauge demand for production, to then find out there was additional delays. That's life.

I would expect BM to sell like 10-100k of these things by now frankly. Only 1k on backorder at the biggest mail order seller, might not be a really big thing.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

Jim Giberti

  • Posts: 231
  • Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:03 am

Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:49 pm

[quote="Chris Whitten"]Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.


Right, many of us did.
You didn't.
No need to be insulting.
Offline

JordanMcgehee

  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 6:04 pm

JordanMcgehee wrote:I just confirmed from my retailer there has been a shortage of parts for the camera and that they have not been given a date. They have not received any since January. They said this has something to do with the Chineses New Year (although that was 15 days ago so I don't see how that is relevant anymore). Someone from Blackmagic care to confirm?


Just talked to BM and they say that there is not a parts shortage. Here is what I think, either BM is lying about the parts shortage or their distributors who ship the cams to the retailers are lying by saying that there is a part shortage and that is why they can't ship them more cameras. Either way, BM is taking a HUGE PR hit here. I hope they learn from this in the future.
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 6:32 pm

JordanMcgehee wrote:Just talked to BM and they say that there is not a parts shortage. Here is what I think, either BM is lying about the parts shortage or their distributors who ship the cams to the retailers are lying by saying that there is a part shortage and that is why they can't ship them more cameras. Either way, BM is taking a HUGE PR hit here. I hope they learn from this in the future.


Black Magic does have a reputation for keeping too much to itself, but not for lying.

Unfortunately though, it doesn't have much control over what its distributors say; that puts BMD in a bit of a bind here.

In the long run though it will make no difference whatsoever; the products will speak for themselves, and let's be serious, this is a MAJOR first for the film industry -- especially when BMD releases braw for the Pocket 4K -- that it's now possible for under $5K if you're economical with your lenses, a FULL KIT that is basically Hollywood level stuff, but smaller.

While I'm sure it's great for vloggers, it's overkill for them. It's a great option for independent filmmakers, and as such is a guaranteed winner.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 10595
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Yes, I agree Rakesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger. :roll:
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 7:38 pm

I reckon all those who seem to be hell bent on bagging Blackmagic at every opportunity really need to just walk away and get something else. I'm sure you'll find some 'honourable' manufacturer that will satisfy your every need and relieve the stress that's consuming your lives.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, I agree Ramesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger. :roll:
Cheers


Who's Ramesh?

Let's face it; vloggers would be fine with entry level camcorders. Those who are vlogging with cameras like Pocket 4K's are mostly wasting them -- though there are some vloggers who are actually making films, and just vlogging to build audience... not quite the same demographic.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1679
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:51 pm

And then there are vloggers that use RED cameras.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline
User avatar

Rakesh Malik

  • Posts: 2510
  • Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:01 am
  • Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Australian Image wrote:And then there are vloggers that use RED cameras.


Just showing off the popularity of their channels, I suppose...
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer, photographer, adventurer, martial artist
http://WinterLight.studio
System:
Alienware M15 Hexacore + Radeon VII + Razer Core
HP Spectre x360 Kaby Lake-R
PreviousNext

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aleksandar Bogdanov, McManus and 21 guests