BMPCC4K start shipping

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rick.lang

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Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 4:37 am

I’m one of thousands patiently waiting, but the clock is ticking as Grant has sent emails out before NAB as updates of existing items. Any new product may wait until he has the media’s attention on Monday 9:30 am in Las Vegas, but a week or so before NAB 2019, it wouldn’t surprise me to read, “the BMPCC4K is now shipping with firmware 7.0 that includes BRAW release 1.0.”


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Last edited by rick.lang on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:28 am

rick.lang wrote:it wouldn’t surprise me to read, “the BMPCC4K is now shipping with firmware 7.0 that includes BRAW release 1.0.”


That would indeed be a bonus to add to the end of the waiting. As I think that is going to be an amazing format.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:35 am

Jim Giberti wrote:
Swissified wrote:With respect that's a little massaging of the truth.


How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.
I'm assuming you're not a masseur and I assure you I'm not.


Not you:Chris Whitten wrote that on one of his answers....... so no no masseur
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 7:58 am

Australian Image wrote:How do you know when CVP put in their orders?


They had hundreds of orders very quickly. So my question is: why wait until you have enough orders - as you have suggested.

You keep making throwaway statements but provide no specifics. The 'music' industry says nothing, you could be talking about some trumpet maker that produces a new product every 10 years and blows their horn a week before it's available. I have to keep repeating because you don't provide actual examples. At least I provide examples.


I have, but you don't read them. I gave specific examples - modular synthesisers. They have become a sales phenomenon in the music industry. Most of the makers are one and two man operations, but they sell thousands globally. They have multiple product lines and produce batches of new designs at least annually, if not more often. I already posted this, so why you are exampling a trumpet company oferring one product every ten years is beyond me.

Australian Image wrote:And you keep saying that you don't know, yet keep making hard and fast statements about how it should be done.


No (sigh) not at all. I am making SUGGESTIONS about how things COULD be done differently based on my experiences in another creative industry. I asked why BMD could not announce new products when they are past the prototype stage, and closer to being delivered. I don't think these are unreasonable suggestions or questions.
I have collaborated on new products. The last one, a drum sampler from Roland Corp that was announced at the biggest annual trade show in late January 2018 and was in shops that April.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:02 am

Jim Giberti wrote:How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.


Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.
BMD announced September shipping. I ordered within 12 hours of the trade show announcement. I got mine in mid-December. Like many others I suspect, I had anticipated the usual BMD over optimism, I did not anticipate ordering in early April and receiving in mid-December.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:07 am

aglyons wrote:and future releases of new products will be approached differently to try and avoid customer disappointment.


See, that's all I was talking about.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:57 am

Chris Whitten wrote:
Jim Giberti wrote:How did I massage the truth.
Your experience is different from mine.


Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.
BMD announced September shipping. I ordered within 12 hours of the trade show announcement. I got mine in mid-December. Like many others I suspect, I had anticipated the usual BMD over optimism, I did not anticipate ordering in early April and receiving in mid-December.


See: I ordered mine while the live presentation still was going on and got it at the beginning of October. That should tell you how many pre-orders were pouring in, in the first few hours alone.
And I did expect to get my camera in February 2019 and was very surprised then.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 9:06 am

And about modular synthesizer:
You are trying to tell us that something like this:
https://www.gear4music.at/de/Recording- ... antis/21TX
Made of standard components in a Square box with no parts with tight tolerances and lots of space inside can be compared in high volume manufacturing complexity to a camera? Really?
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 10:58 am

JCStudios wrote:WOAH HAHA! 1,000...? THAT'S NUTS. Okay, okay - I'm going to cancel my order. I'll be in the grave before I see a P4K from B&H - guess I should've called them. My best bet may just be the local camera shop that I got my URSA from. I think they said their wait-list is around 10-15. Granted, they haven't gotten very many units, that's a far cry from 1,000. WOW. Thank you all so much for the information. This has been very helpful!


Hey James, it might pay to find out how far up the list you are and how quickly they will be filling those thousand orders, first. If you are in the top 100 and they are going be filling the next 500 in the next two weeks, you would be close. Often companies might have a beginning of the year holiday lul, and ramp up production by/in Feb. So, they might even come faster now.

I was really hoping they would have caught up the back log by now. I was told last year the back border was mid February or March. Thought I'd wait to see what came at NAB before ordering. If the back log is going be months by NAB, that plan certainly backfired.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 11:18 am

Now you know how I feel Chris. :)

It is really different, but your point is to announce when you are ready, which is valid. I like to be able to order the day I see it, if its worth buying (which isn't obvious without a good review and a play of it, so all that needs to be sorted week one, review out with announcement, play with one at the dealer next week who has had a sample shipped to him as first ones come out). But that's very difficult, you don't known what you are dealing with as far as demand, and if you have 20k units made and the competition releases something way better at the same time, and undercuts your cost, you could be sitting with the 20k units for a while, and have to negotiate an unit production volume down turn with your manufacturing partners.

But, of course there are other problems. You may have your camera ready to use the sensor, which is supposed to be production ready by the date, but things don't tap out at the sensor factory and the sensor production design isn't finish, or the plant has delays. So, you have to sit around waiting for the missing part to turn up and start delivery 6 months after you planned, when everything was supposed to be ready. These sorts of things happen. But BM also would want to promote what was coming at the main show of the year, even if it was a few months early and gauge demand for production, to then find out there was additional delays. That's life.

I would expect BM to sell like 10-100k of these things by now frankly. Only 1k on backorder at the biggest mail order seller, might not be a really big thing.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 5:49 pm

[quote="Chris Whitten"]Just that you wrote 'many of us' (who pre-ordered early) 'got them when we expected'.


Right, many of us did.
You didn't.
No need to be insulting.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 6:04 pm

JordanMcgehee wrote:I just confirmed from my retailer there has been a shortage of parts for the camera and that they have not been given a date. They have not received any since January. They said this has something to do with the Chineses New Year (although that was 15 days ago so I don't see how that is relevant anymore). Someone from Blackmagic care to confirm?


Just talked to BM and they say that there is not a parts shortage. Here is what I think, either BM is lying about the parts shortage or their distributors who ship the cams to the retailers are lying by saying that there is a part shortage and that is why they can't ship them more cameras. Either way, BM is taking a HUGE PR hit here. I hope they learn from this in the future.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 6:32 pm

JordanMcgehee wrote:Just talked to BM and they say that there is not a parts shortage. Here is what I think, either BM is lying about the parts shortage or their distributors who ship the cams to the retailers are lying by saying that there is a part shortage and that is why they can't ship them more cameras. Either way, BM is taking a HUGE PR hit here. I hope they learn from this in the future.


Black Magic does have a reputation for keeping too much to itself, but not for lying.

Unfortunately though, it doesn't have much control over what its distributors say; that puts BMD in a bit of a bind here.

In the long run though it will make no difference whatsoever; the products will speak for themselves, and let's be serious, this is a MAJOR first for the film industry -- especially when BMD releases braw for the Pocket 4K -- that it's now possible for under $5K if you're economical with your lenses, a FULL KIT that is basically Hollywood level stuff, but smaller.

While I'm sure it's great for vloggers, it's overkill for them. It's a great option for independent filmmakers, and as such is a guaranteed winner.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Yes, I agree Rakesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, I agree Ramesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger. :roll:
Cheers


Who's Ramesh?

Let's face it; vloggers would be fine with entry level camcorders. Those who are vlogging with cameras like Pocket 4K's are mostly wasting them -- though there are some vloggers who are actually making films, and just vlogging to build audience... not quite the same demographic.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Australian Image wrote:And then there are vloggers that use RED cameras.


Just showing off the popularity of their channels, I suppose...
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Re: Pocket 4K Availability (mid-February)

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 10:28 pm

Where was he insulting?
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostThu Feb 21, 2019 10:54 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Yes, I agree Ramesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger.


Who's Ramesh?


He's the brother of Demy Sniff :D
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:11 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Denny Smith wrote:Yes, I agree Ramesh, and a Nikon Z6 is a better choice for a Vlogger. :roll:
Cheers


Who's Ramesh?

Let's face it; vloggers would be fine with entry level camcorders. Those who are vlogging with cameras like Pocket 4K's are mostly wasting them -- though there are some vloggers who are actually making films, and just vlogging to build audience... not quite the same demographic.


Sorry, fixed my Post, my IPad keeps trying to second guess names, and I missed it. :oops:

Yes entry level camcorders would do the trick, but a lot of these “bloggers” seem to feel a DSLR style camera will make their “content” better, instead of trying to improve their skills. Some of the new Smart Phones would even work.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:27 am

Denny Smith wrote:Sorry, fixed my Post, my IPad keeps trying to second guess names, and I missed it. :oops:


Ah yes, defeated by the auto-incorrector... :)

I figured it was something silly like that.

Yes entry level camcorders would do the trick, but a lot of these “bloggers” seem to feel a DSLR style camera will make their “content” better, instead of trying to improve their skills. Some of the new Smart Phones would even work.
Cheers


Yes, exactly, They don't need professional digital cinema cameras for their vlogs, since even a lot of the ones shot with professional cameras usually look like they were shot with low end phones :)
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:30 am

Yes Rakesh, they sure do. A small simple,camera like a Nikon 1 V1, V2, and the V3 (with a tilting screen) would do the trick, small compact and does a decent job on its 1-inch sensor. They would save $ (a slightly used Nikon 1 is $200-600), and the rest of us interesting in shooting quality work might be able to get a BMPCC 4K sooner, by getting them out of the que.
Cheers
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:34 am

At least they help to lower the camera prices by adding to the sales volume ;)
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:38 am

Yes, but I think have a more manageable production on the new the new Pocket 4K, by raising it’s initial cost, the existing low price for its incredible quality image has made the camera too popular, more popular than the original Pocket camera. Perhaps BMD should have listed the price at $1995, with Resolve or an option of $1695 without Resolve, and that may have reduced the demand a little.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:53 am

No, they went with a price that was $200 more than the original BMPCC ($995), and included $300 program with it. I remember when Resolve was selling for $995, now it has more features and is only $300. So the new Pocket 4K is $995 plus $200 forbResolve.*
*All prices are USD
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 1:12 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, but I think have a more manageable production on the new the new Pocket 4K, by raising it’s initial cost, the existing low price for its incredible quality image has made the camera too popular, more popular than the original Pocket camera. Perhaps BMD should have listed the price at $1995, with Resolve or an option of $1695 without Resolve, and that may have reduced the demand a little.
Cheers

Hahaha you can buy one on Ebay at that price if you want to part with your money.

Blackmagic try to bring quality film making to as wide an audience as possible by selling a camera/editing/grading package at an amazing price and someone complains it's too cheap. Seriously?
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 2:28 pm

Australian Image wrote:And then there are vloggers that use RED cameras.

Right, Linus tech tips have 4 of those, and then wants to complain about the prices. You don’t need a red camera to review tech smh.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, but I think have a more manageable production on the new the new Pocket 4K, by raising it’s initial cost, the existing low price for its incredible quality image has made the camera too popular, more popular than the original Pocket camera. Perhaps BMD should have listed the price at $1995, with Resolve or an option of $1695 without Resolve, and that may have reduced the demand a little.
Cheers


No, Blackmagic Design priced it correctly. The P4k demand is reminiscent of the Nintendo Wii's popularity during the first year of its launch. It was the right product at the right time with the right price.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 5:32 pm

Denny, the price is $300 diff, not $200, at $1295, $300 more than $995.. or did they lower price of BMPCC4K to $1195 recently and I am a dummy :D

My point earlier was that even at $2K, I would have bought one of these cameras.. and I think "most" of the folks buying them would have. Sure some are buying it because it drops into the prosumer price range especially if you plan to use Resolve Studio and factor that cost in.
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BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 5:56 pm

Pete, I doubt folks are ‘seriously’ complaining that the lust price of the BMPCC4K is too low (assuming BMD is profitable). It’s just a sly tongue-in-cheek slap at other vendors who charge considerably more for their cameras. Sure it’s true the cost could have been $1,995 but most people would still want the camera so we would still have high demand and long wait queues and leave us less money for accessories. $1,295


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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 6:21 pm

I was not complaining the price was too high, quite the opposite, and Rick you are probably right. I was thinking it might reduce the number of bloggers trying to buy a camera that is more than they need.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 7:17 pm

I think the price of BM products are about right. They have always been great camera's, for the price. But they aren't known for being the most reliable, and have had plenty of QC issues. The brand is still working on getting a fan base. If it was closer the price of a C100 Mkii (or similar bigger brand camera's), I think the form factor, lack of SDI, all the cables coming off the smart side, and QC issues would detour a lot of us from wanting to use the BMP4k. Even with as many great features it has.

But aside from the price debate..... still waiting on my personal version of the camera (used a friends, worked great with the new update.) B&H Early December. :roll:
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostFri Feb 22, 2019 7:45 pm

Denny Smith wrote:I was not complaining the price was too high, quite the opposite, and Rick you are probably right. I was thinking it might reduce the number of bloggers trying to buy a camera that is more than they need.
Cheers


Good point
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 5:17 pm

do we have any updates on shipping/production of bmpcc4k? just got told that there are some issues with production and no camera has been produced for a month. just want to know an estimate date when I can expect my cam. thanks
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 6:51 pm

creative.visuals wrote:just got told that there are some issues with production and no camera has been produced for a month.


That rumor's been going around... the BMD reps who would actually know the correct answer have said that there aren't any production problems, just more demand than BMD has been able to keep up with.

The preorders weren't the end of it; the demand for this camera has apparently picked up instead of slowing down since it started shipping.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:17 pm

Then why did deliveries stop?

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:31 pm

Colourberry wrote:Then why did deliveries stop?


They didn't.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:37 pm

They absolutely did. Based on the rate of deliveries my dealer was getting they said just before Christmas first week of January. I'm was then and still am position 6 in line and where are we now? Almost March!!

So don't say they didn't stop or there wasn't a stoppage for a period. Something has happened.

There are way too many reporting the same thing at the same time and oooohh suddenly everything everywhere April is the answer........

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:40 pm

Colourberry wrote:They absolutely did. Based on the rate of deliveries my dealer was getting they said just before Christmas first week of January. I'm was then and still am position 6 in line and where are we now? Almost March!!

So don't say they didn't stop or there wasn't a stoppage for a period. Something has happened.


What happened is that demand went up. That shouldn't be hard to understand... if it is, look at Australian Image's post. His example is spot on.

But you'd conclude that you've stopped making videos in his example...
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:42 pm

Australian Image wrote:
Colourberry wrote:Then why did deliveries stop?


If 20 companies (pick any number over your capacity) approached you today and wanted a video made by the end of next week, could you supply? If not, would the ones that couldn't be supplied be rightfully allowed to say that you've stopped producing videos?
That's a stupid analogy because it ignores the companies that were already scheduled to get their videos shortly and there would still be a flow.

The situation now would look more like the 20 companies and ones already scheduled are being told "your videos will be made in April"

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John Brawley

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:50 pm

Go back and read Kristian Lam’s last post.

He acknowledged there WAS a delay back around xmas because of a parts shortage and Chinese New Year but production hasn’t stopped or been halted. Nor was it stopped for a “fix” like I’ve seen some speculating online either.

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:50 pm

Colourberry wrote:That's a stupid analogy because it ignores the companies that were already scheduled to get their videos shortly and there would still be a flow.


That's why it's exactly accurate. There IS still a flow... but the demand is so high that BMD can't keep up.

The situation now would look more like the 20 companies and ones already scheduled are being told "your videos will be made in April"


You're just making this up to justify your complaining because you're looking at one example and assuming that it's tautologically true, even though it isn't. Customers are still receiving cameras, but BMD's production is all already spoken for.

That you don't like it doesn't make it less true.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 11:12 pm

Okay, it's almost six months now and B&H still has a long list of pre-orders (according to them) and no ETA of the camera being in stock for purchase. Same with Adorama and a couple other resellers in the USA. Therefore I'm still unable to purchase the camera even though I am willing and ready. Maybe there will be another camera announce this NAB that is an in between of the UMP and Pocket 4K, priced in the lower to middle range of the two. If that is the hold-up, then I'm looking forward to NAB. Otherwise, can BMD give an ETA as to when the Pocket can be in stock at their resellers for immediate ordering and shipping?
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 12:01 am

The reason it's taking so long is that the camera is too good. And it's cheap. It took B&H about about four or five months to get the Sony A7III off backorder. And that's the giant Sony. The Nikon D850 was over a year on backorder.

This is the most film-like image producing camera that BMD has ever made. The images are gorgeous and it's revolutionizing filmmaking. Every filmmaker that I know who doesn't own one yet has one on pre-order. I want two of them.

Every time someone with some real talent posts a video that was shot with it, BMD sells another few hundred cameras. Dave Hill's "Isabella" short film alone has probably generated another 1000 sales. Check out below. He shot it with Panasonic 12-35mm, SLR Magic 17mm, Hoya variable ND, ProRes LT, and that's it. He also says he used a Kodak Gold 200 LUT, I guess from Impulz. And the images are gobsmacking superb.

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 12:04 am

Will be interesting to see the impact of any announcements by BMD at NAB 2019 (which is about 6 weeks away) on the length of the queue. I have to believe that NAB can become a factor. It may or may not, but it could increase or decrease orders for the BMPCC4K.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 12:24 am

rick.lang wrote:Will be interesting to see the impact of any announcements by BMD at NAB 2019 (which is about 6 weeks away) on the length of the queue. I have to believe that NAB can become a factor. It may or may not, but it could increase or decrease orders for the BMPCC4K.


I have a feeling that the braw release announcement will spur a huge surge in demand for it...

At this rate it could take an entire year to catch up on demand.

It's happened before; Red stopped taking orders on the Raven when the preorder queue reached a year.

And that was after raising the price by more than the price of the Pocket 4K, which just reinforces how much of a bargain the Pocket 4K is.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 3:50 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:I have a feeling that the braw release announcement will spur a huge surge in demand for it...

Red stopped taking orders on the Raven when the preorder queue reached a year...


Another reason why the timing of BRAW on the BMPCC4K will likely be late March or at NAB 2019: maximum media exposure and maximum impact on orders.

Always a nice problem to have, too many orders, but it can be a double-edged sword as some folks may be put off by those lengthy delays either by choice or forced by circumstances to make a purchase sooner than later. If someone is new to BMD and waiting up to a year, I do feel for them. And for those who felt waiting wasn’t an option, they deserve some sympathy too.

For those with at least one capable camera already, the waiting game isn’t something new and so intolerable. For them they know two things about this camera: it’s worth waiting for and “good things come in small packages.”


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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 4:51 am

True, as did many who ordered late (well after the camera was shipping) from relatively small shops.


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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 6:22 am

rick.lang wrote:Another reason why the timing of BRAW on the BMPCC4K will likely be late March or at NAB 2019: maximum media exposure and maximum impact on orders.


I so agree with this point.

rick.lang wrote:Always a nice problem to have, too many orders, but it can be a double-edged sword as some folks may be put off by those lengthy delays either by choice or forced by circumstances to make a purchase sooner than later. If someone is new to BMD and waiting up to a year, I do feel for them. And for those who felt waiting wasn’t an option, they deserve some sympathy too.


I still think that having prospective customers hanging on for a year is not a great asset for any company.

rick.lang wrote:For those with at least one capable camera already, the waiting game isn’t something new and so intolerable. For them they know two things about this camera: it’s worth waiting for and “good things come in small packages.”


I will agree with this too.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 8:22 am

Australian Image wrote:I'm quite certain that if Blackmagic could pull a rabbit out of a hat, or a hare out of its a..., to get more cameras on the shelves it would do so.


I agree, but I still say having waiting list more than 1 year is a business liability.
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Re: BMPCC4K start shipping

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 9:11 am

The problem for BMD here is they can't just pull out of a hat a new factory to increase the production rate. Into the price of the camera the cost for their existing manufacturing line has been included, but if they have to built up a new factory from scratch this takes time and money. So it is a very though business decision what to do and which risks to take.

My wife works as an auditor and tax consultant and she had seen clients going into bankruptcy because they had been too successful in selling their products and could not bear the costs for increasing production rates.
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