What is the simple external Mic solution?

OK... I have searched and read lots of posts here and all the flavors of answers. I bought the BMPCC4K expecting normal mic input levels as would be expected like it has been with various other video cameras over the years. A line level and mic level have a standard and who would think about them when hooking up your gear unless it was not standard? So OK... even though BMD never confessed to a problem BOTH times my pocket went in for warranty, and they said on the phone when shipping it back that the problem was fixed in my pocket... it was not - no difference! Even though they said 6.1 fixed a low 3.5 mic input level... nothing changed - in the replacement either! So my question to this forum is... without carrying a preamp, but just adding a single microphone... what make and model will give a strong enough signal to the pocket? It does not look like they are going to fix it. I have a smaller shotgun that has always worked on a variety of cameras, but not this one - Polsen SMS45a. With levels at 100% and yelling in to the mic I can almost red line it. really? The mic has no problem. Or... should I modify it to unbalanced xlr? Thanks.

The 6.1 update did a add few db of boost to the mic levels of the 3.5mm jack. But it's still way too low, in my view -- much lower than the original BMPCC, for example. This is a pity, because the preamps on this camera are actually pretty good, as evidenced by the performance of the onboard mics.

Rode Video Mic Pro offers a boost of up to 20db, I believe. Shure also makes an on-camera mic with a 10db boost. I haven't tried either.

The XLR connection is better, but output levels vary (a lot) between mics. You'd want one with high gain, which will require some research, unfortunately.

You did say “simple” and I didn’t hear “cheap” and you’re after good results without a preamp, so mount a good quality XLR mic, using the phantom power from the camera. Simple and good.


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Yes, I agree with a Rick, inexpensive and good quality are in conflict here, you get what you pay for. Boosting small preamps like the new Pocket has, also boosts background pamper noise. That is why line levels are fixed at +4dB levels. Get a good mic, like a used Sennheiser or AKG, almost of the Rode mics all gave too low a level.

Good audio, like good video, requires good equipment.
Cheers

I looked around B&H wondering if they had a simple inline preamp. They did have some options, but nothing as streamlined as I was hoping for. Hey Blackmagic... Are you listening?

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Would this preamp reach the sweet spot?

www.sounddevices.com/products/portable-audio-tools/mp-1

I have the Rode Pro+ levels were fine in 3.5mm. The NTG 3 also has plenty of signal going into xlr. So happy I won’t need Tascam most of the time.

I use
Shotgun rode Ntg2 to xlr (with battery to avoid to grab additional power from camera)
Senheiser radio mic g2 give me good quality without external amp of camera.

Anyway often I use old but good dr70 tascam that I bought for production camera4k to have 4 separate audio and or have a good preamp to camera.
It’s small, had a screw and hole to be put under or over camera or on rig and had two good ambient mic to add to a rig.
Work fine alone, work better together.
Like other told before me, simple not mean cheap.
audio is a place where you can spent 1 million dollars on a cable (not me), there is a starting spending point but there isn’t a ending spending point


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So what XLR mic will do that with the BMPCC4K on its own?

I used a wired sennheiser e835 mic this weekend with great results. I applied a Izotope filter on the audio to bring down some background noise but that was all I had to do. At the same time I used my Sony UWD wireless set on the 3.5mm and it came it at least 4 db lower.

What were the subject/mic distances?

Both mics were close. The e835 was handheld and the lav was placed at the base of the subject's neck. Were your mics more at boom mic level?

I wish this forum had a "like" button.
Thanks again for all your responses. I am thinking the RODE Pro +
On ebay for $269 new.

When I test my Saramonic at very close range, the audio is fine, but move away a few feet and more, and it records nothing

Looks like your Saramonic SR-M3 only has a +10dB boost ? Rode Video Mic Pro and Pro+ have a +20dB boost. I'm using an Azden SMX-30 on camera which also has a +20dB boost. I can get good levels at 5-6ft. with the camera gain set to around 75%

Edit: I also usually set one of the channels lower to around 40% as a safety track.

I recently decided to purchase this microphone that will be used for bmpcc4k,

which has the same function as Rode Video Mic Pro, but it is much cheaper and lighter.

While the Rode Video mic pro is described as having +20db of boost the reality is that it's boosted from such a low level to start with that it's still pretty weak when compared to any descent quality XLR mic. Any on-camera solution with the P4k is going to be problematic due to the fan noise on top of the normal limitations of an on-camera mic. I'd suggest something like a Mixpre 3 which can feed the 3.5mm input for a sync track but also record internally for better quality esp if you move the mic off camera. It's small enough to mount on a cage if you have one.

Both mics were close. The e835 was handheld and the lav was placed at the base of the subject's neck. Were your mics more at boom mic level?

I use my mics anywhere from close up (~1m) to over 30m away. I use a Lav when necessary, but often I have no choice but to use on-board mics from a distance.

On-board mics? That's can't be great for you. I thought I've seen you mention before that you own a shotgun mic or two. If so what would be the instances where you couldn't use those during a shoot?

I recently decided to purchase this microphone that will be used for bmpcc4k,

which has the same function as Rode Video Mic Pro, but it is much cheaper and lighter.

So then... You don't yet know if this mic will be satisfactory on the pocket4k.

You could try to Zoom F1.

I've not personally tried it, but I have been looking into the system and it seems incredible versatile and should fit the bill perfectly.

If you buy it with the shotgun module, it also comes with an on camera shockmount, and since it's also a recorder, you can also use it as a 'wireless' lav if you don't mind syncing in post. On top of that, you can get XY modules and two XLR inputs (although there's no phantom power)

For recording internal to a camera, there's a nifty line-out feature, where you can play a test tone, and adjust the camera's preamps to get perfect levels everytime.

Would this preamp reach the sweet spot?

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/po ... tools/mp-1

Yes, that wil, work for one mic, and boost gain nicely.
That said, any mic is going to benefit from a good mic preamp, better preamps have a better signal to noise ratio, Sound Devices are leading here in this regard.

Most mics are not designed to work 30m from a subject (unless just recording ambient sound for background), unless recording a large sound source like a band or orchestra. Recording dialogue between subjects requires mics close in to the subject for best results.

Mics are designed to perform best for given situations, no one mic is going to be great at recording every situation. Long shotguns will reach longer distances, lavs are best used attached to the subject. Mics are like any instrument, you would not use a guitar to create a banjo sound, mics are the same, each with their best application.
Cheers

Firstly, the 3.5mm input will not work effectively using any mic (powered or unpowered) without some form of intermediary audio recorder and pre-amp. Secondly, no one has confirmed, or otherwise, that any XLR mic will work with the mini-XLR port without an intermediary audio recorder and/or pre-amp.

My Rode NTG3 worked very well going into the xlr port. I used it for an interview in the weekend. Had the gain set to around 70%. My Rode Pro+ set to 20db gain seems to work very well on the 3.5mm, I haven’t used it on a job yet but seemes totally fine in my tests.

Firstly, the 3.5mm input will not work effectively using any mic (powered or unpowered) without some form of intermediary audio recorder and pre-amp. Secondly, no one has confirmed, or otherwise, that any XLR mic will work with the mini-XLR port without an intermediary audio recorder and/or pre-amp.

My Rode NTG3 worked very well going into the xlr port. I used it for an interview in the weekend. Had the gain set to around 70%. My Rode Pro+ set to 20db gain seems to work very well on the 3.5mm, I haven’t used it on a job yet but seemes totally fine in my tests.

Yes, at very close quarters and in ideal conditions, they will work, but I'm still trying to find out what will work at greater distances, indoors or outdoors. I understand that, ideally, you will have the mic/mics close to the subjects, whether boom or Lav, but that's not something that I can do as a one man operation, so I have to have a system that will work more broadly.

The thing is, I'm doing that now (after a lot of trial and error), but no one seems to have a one stop solution that replicates what I've managed to do. Indoors I can record low-level speech from 10m away quite clearly, without boosting gain and retaining good tone. I was hearing voices (echoing across our valley) quite clearly from at least 100m away, with headphones on, that I could barely make out without the headphones.

Not everyone needs this capability, but wouldn't it be nice to have that ability and in a small package?

I would never record speech from those distances so can’t offer any advice. If I was ever in such a situation I would use wireless lapel mics.

I have a Samsung wireless mic from my VX2000 days. I have 2 - a hand held and lav. It has xlr out and 3.5 unbalanced out. It has -30, -20, and -10. All these years I have always used it -30 in to many cameras - mic input. It does well on the bimpsy4k xlr -10 and is a joke unbalanced in by the 3.5mm. I wish we knew before I went and spent a couple hundred on a preamp if BMD intended to fix this.

On-board mics? That's can't be great for you. I thought I've seen you mention before that you own a shotgun mic or two. If so what would be the instances where you couldn't use those during a shoot?

No, no and no. I use two external mics in tandem, a Saramonic and Rode. I would never use the built-in mics for audio.

LOL. Thanks for the clarification. I was worried there for a second!

Today I used my Movo mic https://www.amazon.com/Movo-VXR10-Microphone-Windscreen-Smartphones/dp/B0723D3FVL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=movi+mic&qid=1552512047&s=gateway&sr=8-1 to capture a choir in a church about 40ft away. After I dump down the footage I'll take a listen and see how it recorded.

LOL. Thanks for the clarification. I was worried there for a second!

Today I used my Movo mic https://www.amazon.com/Movo-VXR10-Microphone-Windscreen-Smartphones/dp/B0723D3FVL/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=movi+mic&qid=1552512047&s=gateway&sr=8-1 to capture a choir in a church about 40ft away. After I dump down the footage I'll take a listen and see how it recorded.

Yes... Please let us know how it worked out. A choir is a bit louder than most shoots for me.

This has the potential to be quite a useful thread.

I think what we need are some direct comparison shots or information of the levels achieved recording the same audio, through the 3.5 and XLR, with different mics. It is certainly sounding as if the 3.5 connection is, as with the original Pocket absolute rubbish. I also believe if that is the case that some kind of response from BM is required, after all designing a low voltage amp circuit is not that hard.

Steve

This has the potential to be quite a useful thread.

I think what we need are some direct comparison shots or information of the levels achieved recording the same audio, through the 3.5 and XLR, with different mics. It is certainly sounding as if the 3.5 connection is, as with the original Pocket absolute rubbish. I also believe if that is the case that some kind of response from BM is required, after all designing a low voltage amp circuit is not that hard.

Steve

"LIKE - LIKE - LIKE - LIKE!!!"

This preamp looks interesting...
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615405-R ... l_Pre.html

Has anyone tried connecting the RODE 3.5mm to Mini XLR adapter to a mic and comparing the results of, straight in to the 3.5 socket, and in through the XLR. It would be interesting to see what the level variation might be? I suspect the levels will be the same or very similar.

I don't have the camera so I can't run the comparison myself.

Steve

I was looking at this as a possibility Ray :

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/collecti ... -amplifier

Steve

I've been using a saramonic m3 and generally get a decent level for effects. It seems to have a higher output at +10db than the rode videomic pro at +20. All the Rode mics I've tried seem to have fairly low gain (haven't tried the ntg3 though) compared to similar mics. A shame because they are generally very clean. I've used a AT875 into the xlr input - a very short 'shotgun' that's also worked well for FX.
For voices I tend to use radio or wired lavs, where possible. If that's not an option, a zoom h1 and a lav in the person's pocket can work well - though you really won't know until later!
There are very few - and I think no cheap - shotgun mics that have enough off-axis rejection to pick up clean voices from a distance. The Sennheiser 816 is one of the better options - and I've just bought a secondhand Shure 89 that is also very good. Might try mounting it on the camera one day - but it's very long! If you need to pick up relatively clean sounds from a distance, I think that's the only way to go.

I've been looking at grabbing a Zoom F1. It seems unbelievably flexible, and has a loud output. Not to mention having a build in shotgun that you can take off if you want to use this as a 'wireless' lav, and sync in post.

As a new user, I'm not allowed to post URLs... but Curtis Judd did a great review of them, including hooking it up to the camera and showing the tools to get perfect in camera levels.

Has anyone tried connecting the RODE 3.5mm to Mini XLR adapter to a mic and comparing the results of, straight in to the 3.5 socket, and in through the XLR. It would be interesting to see what the level variation might be? I suspect the levels will be the same or very similar.

I don't have the camera so I can't run the comparison myself.

Steve

I’ll do a test as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks Richard.

Steve.

Bingo! I just did a test I was thinking about while sleeping. I ran the headphones signal in to the bimpsy4k. My Sony headphones are louder than many, which is why I chose this model, for camera monitoring in noisy environments. They are the MDR-V600 model. So then, I played back a music file on the laptop and adjusted the sound to 20 which was a nice medium to medium/low volume. The Lenova laptop maxes out volume at 50. So then... plug the Sony headphones in to the bimpsy4k, and plug the computer headphones out - in to the bimpsy4k and choose 3.5 mic levels and bingo! A nice strong signal that was just as clear as coming from the laptop. So, can I find a mic preamp with headphones out with good quality? Both inputs are set to left because my 3.5mm cable is mono.

Mic levels

mic levels.jpg (42.15 KiB) Viewed 22777 times

Has anyone tried connecting the RODE 3.5mm to Mini XLR adapter to a mic and comparing the results of, straight in to the 3.5 socket, and in through the XLR. It would be interesting to see what the level variation might be?

Prior to the 6.1 firmware, users here measured XLR mic levels as 12db higher than 3.5mm. Which means the XLR levels are also comparatively low. You might want to search out the earlier threads.

With 6.2, there's a claimed 6db improvement on the 3.5mm circuit. BMD has said nothing to suggest the there will be any further improvement.

This video might also be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 6m4f_-mBDs

What I'd like to see are tests similar to what I did,. Put the camera on a tripod, say in a long hallway, start recording, stand in front of the camera and say a short sentence (mine was: 'Mary had a little lamb, it's fleece was white as snow), then step back a metre and repeat, and do that for say ten paces (10m) and see how clear and audible the voice is at each point.

I'm going to repeat that test soon with my cheap recorder, but outside where conditions aren't as ideal as in a hallway (less tunneling effect). If that works and gives a loud, clear, recording without distortion, I'll be very happy indeed.

Audio fall-off is like light. Move 1/4 the distance away from the light/sound source, and the volume is halved. The hallway is going to have much echo as compared to outside. I think audio quality is bad after a 2-4 meters unless you have a great mic.

Does the inverse square law apply to sound? I know you want your mic about 10-15 inches from the mouth if possible (lavs on wides).

I finally dumped down the footage and got to listen to it.

The bad news is I had to boost the fader in Resolve to +7.5 db AND turn my mixer way up to hear the audio.

The good news is even at those insane levels I heard very little noise.

I add this little use case as evidence to bolster the idea that a good preamp between your mic (whatever style mic you are using) and the PCC4k is a necessity to obtain adequate levels of decibels in your recording.

I am thinking to try this. I been searching and looking at everything. It's stereo. Not made for a mic... but I will see what it does.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MS22YWV/ref ... B01CPUVPEM

This one appears to allow a plug in unbalanced mic with adjustable amplifier out to headphones. I showed earlier that, a headphone level in to the bimpsy4k provides a decent level at 50%

www.amazon.com/Creative-Headphone-Ampli ... 69&sr=8-15

Thanks Richard.

Steve.

Rode Pro+ going into XLR via adapter has MUCH more signal. More than 6db I would estimate.

Thanks Richard,

That would seem to correspond well with another poster here saying it was a 12db difference, but with recent updates the 3.5 has been increased by 6db. So about as expected I suppose. Of course that does rather imply that the whole audio circuit needs much better amplification.

At a resellers here in Adelaide the other day I mentioned the perceived sound problems, and the response was that they really thought that BMD would have to come out of the "It's all about the pictures" bubble at some point.

Steve

Thanks Richard,

That would seem to correspond well with another poster here saying it was a 12db difference, but with recent updates the 3.5 has been increased by 6db. So about as expected I suppose. Of course that does rather imply that the whole audio circuit needs much better amplification.

At a resellers here in Adelaide the other day I mentioned the perceived sound problems, and the response was that they really thought that BMD would have to come out of the "It's all about the pictures" bubble at some point.

Steve

Too be honest though it seems adequate for my useage and is a huge step up from 5D land which is where I’m coming from. Xlr has plenty of signal for boom and 3.5 is fine for scratch.

Well when they finally get through all the back orders (two months?) and get a demo BMPCC 4k I will go back down to the reseller and have a play.

Steve

Since this thread is all about the bimpsy4k audio... I would like to ask an audio question in general that I have had for years.

When editing in post, I can have a strong level on the VU meters but the actual sound level to my ears may not be as loud as a different video clip with lower meter readings. What I am saying is, I have had video clips (or audio clips) that had a strong sound, but the levels did not appear as high as other clips. It is possible the difference was clips made by me versus clips form another source. I always wondered what is it about audio - actual sound presence and meter readings I did not understand.

Shooting at the beach 2 days ago, with just the built in mics of the bimpsy4k, gave me good sound, but the VU meters in post barely moved. I don't know how to analyze the signal as some pro's do. I'll put a link to that video.

For the preamp I use the phantom Fethead. less than $100 and I am good.https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... p_for.html

Eli, thanks for the reminder about that product. My Sennheiser 416MKH is a phantom condenser mic which I power from the camera. So is the only adjustment I require then to set the device to 48V? +18 decibels is a lot of boost since this is using the XLR audio, not the 3.5mm audio on the BMPCC4K. Would that also be an adjustment on the Fethead or do I just adjust the audio level in camera to suit my needs?


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The fethead attached to the mic xlr as an extension and then you attach the XLR cable. it looks like a natural extension of the mic itself. doesn't require a battery or anything... very simple and good preamp level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 8WtN01T16U

There are different models of Fathead preamps, one for non powered or battery powered mics (the Fathead requires Phantom power, but does not pass on the power to the mic), and one where rhe 48v Phantom power is passed on to the mic. So you need to get the correct unit.
Cheers

Eli, thanks for the reminder about that product. My Sennheiser 416MKH is a phantom condenser mic which I power from the camera. So is the only adjustment I require then to set the device to 48V? +18 decibels is a lot of boost since this is using the XLR audio, not the 3.5mm audio on the BMPCC4K. Would that also be an adjustment on the Fethead or do I just adjust the audio level in camera to suit my needs?


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I expect you'll be able to use the 416 straight into the camera without a preamp. The camera's preamp isn't as good as Sound Devices, but it isn't bad at all.