New BMPCC 4k (6.2.1) prevents firmware downgrade!

Three people? We don't know who thinks like Chris Mo, let alone dare to talk about it directly and honestly here at the BMD Forum. Objective criticism is always good, it motivates every manufacturer to improve. So don't be a brake.

Shouldn't the argument be then to improve BRAW to be far superior to CDNG rather than arguing that Blackmagic should put CDNG back into the cameras? I'm all for them improving the codec. When folks lash out on here it's rarely if ever to motivate progress it's always to regress. For some commenters on here you'd think there never was or ever could be anything better than cdng.

Yes, objective criticism is ALWAYS good.
I don't count hyperbole about law breaking, profiteering and lying as 'objective criticism.

@jsmith,
CinemaDNG is not only very good. It is also what many understand as real RAW.
I also think that BRAW will get better with time. And therefore a little bit of criticism doesn't hurt, but serves for movement and hope for improvement, so that one can finally say "why CDNG, BRAW is much better..."

I will swap my old-school-downgrade-able P4K for 2 sealed new ones.

I will swap my old-school-downgrade-able P4K for 2 sealed new ones.

.. good idea .. maybe I should too

Just my 2 cents... I’ve been in this business for the past 15 years and throughout the years we went from being overly excited about shooting Once upon a time in Mexico, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, Dogman, etc on a 2/3” sensor and 4:4:4 codec to shooting music videos or weddings on MFT or Super35 in 4K raw and complaining about the differences between raw formats while films like Moonlight are shot on Prores...
Unless you are doing plates and VFXs for a big Hollywood production (for which you wouldn’t use a Pocket4K anyway) can I politely ask what kind of projects “require” CDNG and would not accept Braw?

can I politely ask what kind of projects “require” CDNG and would not accept Braw?

basically you and many others are trying to say is BMD should NOT have adopted CDNG in the first place. Specifically to you, the format of pocket camera like p4k should not have been even invented.

These are all retrovert justification.

I just don't the need of personal attack towards the people who like and want CDNG. We all understand it is business decision. Just say it outright what it is. I am fine. I just don't like the sugar coating of it.

What?!?!?! I simply said that I don't understand the controversy over CDNG vs BRAW because in my experience wether you shoot in one format or the other won't change a thing, hence I asked where is CDNG needed.

The format of the pocket camera should not have been invented?!?! I bought 2 of them the day they were released!

Where is the sugar coating? They switched from one format to an other proprietary format they developed specifically for these cameras, seems like a win win to me... What are you missing by shooting BRAW instead of CDNG?

@youlikeny
Can people like something (CDNG) without having or giving a reason? It is not I don't have reason, because any reason peopel give will become a distraction of the original question of the thread, and people who want cDNG will become targets of personal attacks. What I am trying to say is it is pointless to debate which is better, because it is not a choice anymore. Like it or not, it is BRAW, CDNG is not an option any more. BMD abandoned cDNG NOT by choice. I still recalled the hypes when pocket mkI was marketed.

The non-downgradability of the newer version qualify as a different camera. Codec is important. GH4 sells log feature for extra money. The fact that BMD did not annouce that the new camera as non-downgradable, to me, is misleading by non-disclosing. I don't how many others out there was buying into the p4K based on the fact that you can downgrade, I placed my order purely based on this fact. And I cancelled my order.

I am looking for ways to buy the older version.

Given two cameras, one is the downgradable, the other is a non-downgradable one, whick one would you or people pick?

I see local advertised selling open box p4k here. If you ask sellor what version it is, the conversation will just stop. All you hear is it is new.

On ebay, I have seen sellor saying if it is the older version, he would not have been selling it.

It is a business decision, I am not sure it is good one.

Let's be honest, it was pretty deceitful to not be up front with this.

The fact that it came out because people found out they couldn't downgrade is not cool.

@youlikeny
Can people like something (CDNG) without having or giving a reason? It is not I don't have reason, because any reason peopel give will become a distraction of the original question of the thread, and people who want cDNG will become targets of personal attacks. What I am trying to say is it is pointless to debate which is better, because it is not a choice anymore. Like it or not, it is BRAW, CDNG is not an option any more. BMD abandoned cDNG NOT by choice. I still recalled the hypes when pocket mkI was marketed.

The non-downgradability of the newer version qualify as a different camera. Codec is important. GH4 sells log feature for extra money. The fact that BMD did not annouce that the new camera as non-downgradable, to me, is misleading by non-disclosing. I don't how many others out there was buying into the p4K based on the fact that you can downgrade, I placed my order purely based on this fact. And I cancelled my order.

I am looking for ways to buy the older version.

Given two cameras, one is the downgradable, the other is a non-downgradable one, whick one would you or people pick?

I see local advertised selling open box p4k here. If you ask sellor what version it is, the conversation will just stop. All you hear is it is new.

On ebay, I have seen sellor saying if it is the older version, he would not have been selling it.

It is a business decision, I am not sure it is good one.

I’m sorry but think of it as any other product in the world... Apple regularly stops supporting older OS on their phones and implement a number of changes with every OS, are people mad because they wanted to stick with the older OS and buying older iPhones?
Blackmagic updated the camera with something better, they announced it on their website, they are not hiding the fact and deceiving people into thinking the old codec is still there. I understand if the camera stopped recording RAW with the new update but it didn’t, they just implemented a new proprietary codec. It’s their camera, they are not building a camera tailored to your specific preferences.
And obviously yes they did it by choice, why else would they develop a new proprietary codec? Just for fun? Pretty sure they developed it for their cameras, don’t you think?

Given two cameras, one is the downgradable, the other is a non-downgradable one, whick one would you or people pick?

I see local advertised selling open box p4k here. If you ask sellor what version it is, the conversation will just stop. All you hear is it is new.

On ebay, I have seen sellor saying if it is the older version, he would not have been selling it.

It is a business decision, I am not sure it is good one.

If someone offered me US$1500 for my Oct 2018 BMPCC4K, I'd happily sell it and buy a May 2019 version.

From my direct experience, I wonder if there is another cause for the screen change. One of my cameras had a defective screen (digitizer?) and had to be sent back more than once for repairs. They eventually sent me a new camera. I know of at least one other person that also had screen problems (digitizer?). Perhaps it isn't some big conspiracy to screw people out of being able to downgrade to the old firmware. Perhaps there was a genuine hardware issue or a supply issue. Occam's Razor and all that...

Also, I have three P4Ks that are in excellent condition. I will also sell them at a small profit and trade for new ones if people want to pay extra to get a cam that can run the old firmware.

I have noticed a tiny bit more perceived detail in the CDNG but you *really* have to pixel peep to see it. I much prefer the file size savings and ease of use of BMRaw, but to each their own

Let’s be respectful of those who are upset with the inability of newer cameras to downgrade their BMOS to a version earlier than 6.2.1 in order to have access to a version of CinemaDNG. The result may be those users will be inconvenienced as they return products or cancel preorders or source from others who will sell their BMPCC4K Mark I cameras.

Let’s be respectful of BMD that has been at the mercy of a supplier once again in this particular end-of-life of a key component although the timing and means of communicating that change could have been better and more transparent. The result may be in the future the web pages and the forum’s sticky threads will include notices of such changes in the Cinematography section once the changes are known to BMD.

Let’s be respectful of those who defend their positions on either side of the fence with honesty, civility, understanding, and tolerance. The result may be that we continue to work together as a band of brothers and sisters who want to make and promote the use of BMD cameras.

If we can’t follow these principles, the forum will be weaker and less effective in helping to shape or influence our practices and those of BMD.


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If we can’t follow these principles, the forum will be weaker and less effective in helping to shape or influence our practices and those of BMD.

+1

Rick Lang, the rock of reason in the eye of the storm.

@Rick
I fully agree with you

In my opinion one of BMD's most valuable assets is this forum and the positive/helpful attitude of its users!

BMD did a mistake in not upfront tell/explain the change in hardware that blocks downgrade of newest BMPCC 4k (to maintain CDNG) before the first one reached a customer

It's one of the most important new knowledges with social media, be transparent and tell it up front even if it's negative to some customers!
To be caught with an error/something criticisable afterwards and do a 'poodle' will be remembered much longer

Please BMD, tell us both the good and the bad as soon as you know!

Björn Zitting

Actually, as soon as the BRAW firmware was released, they changed all the descriptions on this site from DNG to BRAW. Also, they updated the manual and gave a statement about the change. So they never false-advertised.
It's not BMD's fault if third party retailers don't update their sites/shops, or if you don't stay informed while having something pre-ordered - you could have just canceled the pre-order as soon as news broke.

It's on the reseller for not updating it's marketing material. Blackmagic doesn't sell directly to individuals so the resellers are their customers. It is the resellers responsibility to then sell to you with current information because you are their customer. Blackmagic from what I had seen had removed CDNG from the spec when they were forced to remove it. If the reseller did not do that then it is on them.

Only to make it clear, I phoned several big retailers here and NON did know that there was a change - BMD "somehow forgot" to even tell the resellers...

...even now, BMD is not making this a fakt and sending information to anyone. (And thats what I call really bad behavior.)

I will swap my old-school-downgrade-able P4K for 2 sealed new ones.

.. good idea .. maybe I should too

Yes, and thats already happening - the price of the downgradable Pocket is at +350 EUR at the moment - yes, still low, as only a few people know what happend. Give it some time and the price will got beyond 2x new Pocket.

If someone offered me US$1500 for my Oct 2018 BMPCC4K, I'd happily sell it and buy a May 2019 version.

Just do it, put it on Ebay and directly label it as an "old" Pocket 4k - you will get much more than $1500 for it.

I'm very lucky that I got a replacement 6.1 Pocket directly from BMD Germany (after quite some effort).

Oh, and something new:
Downgradable vs. not has something to do with the production date - so there might be Pockets with "BRAW" on the box that still offer that option. (But I don't know how to find out other than testing each camera.)

... The result may be in the future the web pages and the forum’s sticky threads will include notices of such changes in the Cinematography section once the changes are known to BMD.

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What?!

My 2 cents worth.

My BMPCC4k has just arrived , I assume it is MkII (I won't be opening the box till next week).

I want CDNG for greenscreen work. Perhaps the 4k capability will offset the loss of CDNG for quality keying.

I also want to use it in conjunction with my BMCCs, which I don't plan on retiring anytime soon. Actually I bought the BMPCC4k for its low light and higher frame rate capability rather than any other reason, but I am disappointed at the loss of the option of having CDNG.

Thanks for the statements of support, folks. I do think BMD will consider posting a Cinematography sticky for ‘product advisories’ similar to post #20 (May 27th) in a very timely manner going forward.


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Rick, you are a rock as usual. If I do get a BMPCC 4K, it would be to get BRaw recording, so the loss of CDNG is no big deal for me, as I do not shoot using that format, currently I mostly use ProRes, like Jon B.
Cheers

Thanks, Denny. The biggest draw to me is the base ISO 3200 which is very helpful covering events whether indoors or outdoors depending upon time of day. I suspect any grain there will be close enough to film grain that it won’t be a distraction, especially if I’m recording in squeezed UHD for Widescreen HD distribution. Can’t wait to run BRAW tests on that!

BRAW Q0/5 are hugely appealing and that may extend the video life of my iMac (late 2015) perhaps a couple of years before I get a low end Mac Pro (2020?) for a challenging project I’m proposing.

Lots of other appealing characteristics for that camera and if I needed CinemaDNG, the URSA Mini 4.6K is there. Because I have that alternative, I’m not feeling helpless at the loss of CDNG on the Pocket4K. I understand the frustration of those who are more adversely affected.


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...how to find out if you have an „old“ or a „new“ camera model?
I ordered in 2018, but got it 2019...

@Niklas

0) Check the firmware version of your camera: If its 6.2 or below you got an old one.

If your firmware is 6.2.1 or above:

1) Go to the BMD support page, left column, scroll down (a lot) till you find "Camera Setup 6.1" and download it.

2) If you have any other version of this software on your computer, use the Deinstaller in that package.

3) Install Camera Setup 6.1 and connect your Pocket 4k via USB-C cable to the computer.

4) If there is an "Upgrade" button you have an old Pocket, if there is no button but only the information "Software is up to date." you got a new one.

...how to find out if you have an „old“ or a „new“ camera model?
I ordered in 2018, but got it 2019...

If you received yours before the release of 6.2 (I believe it was beginning of March?) then you can 100% go back to the old firmwares...

@Chris Mo @youlikeny ... then I have an „old“ one

...should I be happy .. or getting nervous because of a „bad“ screen?
Maybe the new screen also is the reason for the lost of the „touch-tap-focus“

...should I be happy ..

Yes, you have more options with this camera (I think the screens are the same, it was just an excuse).

Sorry Chris, BM does not give excuses. The screen was changed per BMD Pocket 4K Project manager.
Time to move on guys...
Cheers

[Kristian Lam]

...should I be happy ..

Yes, you have more options with this camera (I think the screens are the same, it was just an excuse).

The screens are different.

They no better or worse, just from a different supplier.

This might be the wrong place to ask, but is there a point in downgrading? Does DNG has any advantages over Raw?

BRAW is not actually RAW. CinemaDNG is raw. Think of it like this. If you shot photos on a DSLR and edited raw photos.

CinemaDNG is like RAW (.nef .cr2)
BRAW is like (.jpg)

Shame on BMD for not letting all users have the option to shoot CinemaDNG when they marketed it as having that feature and still do.

Personally, I think the touch focus on 6.1 works much better than the current touch-and-hold.

I cannot agree more! I used the previous tap focus for weeks (in 6.1) on a long form documentary I am currently shooting and it was wonderful. I have the BMPCC 4k mounted on a Ronin S and the ease of getting tap focus on fast moving shots, high and low was fantastic. My DP, an A.S.C. cinematographer agree enthusiastically.

Then...

I upgraded to 6.2 to get the BM raw capability and we have been struggling ever since getting the touch and hold focus to work smoothly.We find ourselves repeatedly touching the screen and tapping and the extra latency when it does engage is a considerable frustration. It seems that if I have any perspiration on my fingertips it compounds the problem of the screen registering my touch which did not happen with the simple tap version.

I am literally going to uninstall 6.2 ( losing the BM raw (which I love)) to go back to the previous tap focus.
Blackmagic, if you are listening, please please give us the option to have either a menu driven option to select (or revert to) the previous tap focus or select touch and hold for those who prefer. This was one time your firmware improvement resulted in a more crippled function, in my opinion.

What do you love so much about BRAW that ProRes doesn't offer? Other than killing those of us who appreciate the capability of actual RAW? (CDNG)

@Robert

If BM had to source a new screen, they new that BEVOR production of the new batch, but didn't tell any user that there are some fundamental changes to the camera... why?

I had a lot of respect for BMD, I'm useing there products for years now and thought they where one of the last companies lead by tech guys rather than stockexchange-maximumprofit-a*holes. But why are they pulling such a stunt with Cinema DNG?

If this was just a misunderstanding/unfortunate events/..., then why is there not already a new 6.1 firmware for download? I feel cheated, thats the reason for my lack of respect.

(BM made some agreement with Red about the RAW video patents - but why? Cinema DNG is outside of all Red patents (which would not hold up against a really big law suit anyway) and there is no need to take CDNG away from users - some of us need these raw data. That was the reason why I started using BM cameras at all and why I bought the Pocket 4k. If I knew bevorehand that the Pocket would not have a real RAW format I wouldn't have bought it.)

Because if they told users their sales would plummet. Their sales already will, once users really realize how bad BRAW is. It has no practical advantages over prores or even .mov. The footage falls apart when doing basic edits as compared to CDNG.

This is a classic bait and switch. It's a clear marketing ploy to get people to use DR15-16 vs other software. We should all demand CINEMADNG be put back into the next firmware version release. Even if you don't use it. They can keep BRAW there too, but CinemaDNG needs to be put back in.

I can download to previous versions, but I haven’t. I left CDNG a long time ago.

Why? Explain to me why you have this attitude towards it, like it's so terrible? It's like saying, no I left .nef or .cr2 a long time ago. Editing Jpg is much better.???

If the problem was indeed a looming lawsuit by another manufacturer, this is unlikely to happen. On the other hand, in the US there are laws that protect consumers from having the rug pulled from underneath them. My guess is that BMD is in a tough spot about this issue, and maybe we can cut them some slack.

As far as I understood, the licensing/patent issue is with compressed RAW, not uncompressed.

I disagree 1000%, this was a power move to get users away from adobe products to Davinci Resolve. Hense no native adobe support for BRAW.

What's the big issue with people wanting to hold on to CDNG like an old pair of boots that need replacing? From what I've read and seen, the vast majority of film makers who don't use a RAW format of one type or another, use ProRes. And those who were using ProRes, will soon have available ProRes RAW.

Have those who moan about this really tried BRAW? Or is that those who want CDNG don't (or won't) use Resolve? Some people need to build a bridge and get over it.

Yes, we've tried it. Have you? Go download old cinemaDNG footage and see what you're missing. And a codec that records 4k @ 60fps with 120mb/s bitrate, CAN'T BE RAW.. My iphone records a higher bitrate. It's not raw, the colors and quality fall apart just as they do in prores with lumitri color. Zero difference. There needs to be a serious update to BRAW for me to get on board. Something like. CinemaDNG... where each frame is a seperate .braw file. True raw, with full editing like any other format. .CR2 .NEF or similar. I don't buy this lawsuit stuff. cinemaDNG is open source.

CinemaDNG/RAW is for some customers part of the decision to buy a BM camera. If BRAW were better, some customers would not complain. BRAW is also professional, but not better than CinemaDNG.
ProRes is also professional, but not better than CinemaDNG.
That is no consolation for the disappointed customers, only an honest opinion and fact.

I couldn't say it better. BRAW is like nikon saying. I'm sorry, we're not supporting .NEF anymore, but you can just edit in JPG and if you don't like it. RETURN IT! (That response from BMD is such a bad move)

Just my 2 cents... I’ve been in this business for the past 15 years and throughout the years we went from being overly excited about shooting Once upon a time in Mexico, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, Dogman, etc on a 2/3” sensor and 4:4:4 codec to shooting music videos or weddings on MFT or Super35 in 4K raw and complaining about the differences between raw formats while films like Moonlight are shot on Prores...
Unless you are doing plates and VFXs for a big Hollywood production (for which you wouldn’t use a Pocket4K anyway) can I politely ask what kind of projects “require” CDNG and would not accept Braw?

I appreciate the honest question. It's the ability to edit the footage as you see fit. Have you used CinemaDNG? It's actually a series of truly RAW images. It would be like saying nikon isn't supporting .nef anymore, just JPG. Your fine editing in JPG right? Technically you can increase the exposure, and change the temp. So your good!

The ability to take footage that might be way blown out, in some areas, or have too many shadows and lift those, or restore detail to highlights. in addition to my personal favorite "Red Green Blue, Primary adjustments, through adobe camera raw. This is impossible with BRAW. The footage falls apart just like it does in prores. Not to mention and camera that should produce such a small amount of noise, has way too much noise now. They can't call that RAW. It's not raw. They should have called it BMPro. They should update BRAW to be a MUCH higher bitrate and include basic, truly BASIC raw adjustments like highlights, shadows but by actually editing a raw image. Meaning, BRAW should be 500mb/s (as an option) and take a series of raw stills, just like cinemaDNG that are compiled into a single container. I'm sure Nikon would love to break into the cinema industry, a series of .nef stills packaged in a single file as .BRAW would be AMAZING.

Lastly, I just see no hope of every getting a suitable upgrade from BMD. I feel they've sold out and are now simply in the Sony business model. "You want an upgrade"? Buy the A7MIIIII. I knew there was something too good to be true about a raw camera for $1,300.

Please don't take any of my response as meant to be rude. I feel we've all reached a boiling point.