About a viewfinder for P4K ?

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ttakala

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Jul 01, 2019 9:10 pm

rick.lang wrote:Started testing with my new BMPCC4K and the number one irritation is that difficulty in seeing the image to do anything critical when in daylight. I cannot see it well enough at 100% brightness to judge levels and will totally rely on false colour. I cannot see well enough to focus and even relying on focus assist is problematic because the Medium strength of red lines seems less accurate than the Low strength but it can be very difficult to see Low red lines on moving subjects.

I made a simple grayscale LUT which helps with focusing a little bit. The red lines pop up better from a gray image. I have the LUT mapped at function key 2 and false color at 1. If it's really bright, I use false color even for composing, not ideal, but helps a little bit. I wish you could make the focus assist lines thicker so that you could keep the tolerance/range of Low strength but still have the lines more visible.

An EVF would be nice but with prices higher than the camera and still no cheaper options available... Now waiting for my Feelworld FW279 ultrabright to arrive.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 12:32 am

Some time ago I contacted portkeys about the need for a smaller less complicated evf. Someone there just answered and told me that they will be releasing another evf for another cinema camera (I will not name) That will work with HDMI and be smaller. He didn't mention when, but I suspect it should be soon. That's all, no price given.


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Dmytro Shijan

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 1:37 am

Kim Janson wrote:For that what I posted pefore should be just fine. inexpensive HDMI ro AV converter and this. I may use that for a drone, just for framing. It is analogue signal anyway.

Screenshot 2019-05-02 at 5.54.38.jpg


Just connect analogue video (two wires) and 5V to a USB battery from HDMI converter and the monocular. (two wires) Prety simple, not even necessary to solder, just protect the wires. At your own risk of course. And no gurarantees it will work.


Hey, nice find! This thing actually costs around $55. Why do you think it may not work?
Seems too small size but may work well as low cost EVF for BMMCC.
Power consumption 3.7-5V 120MA so it could be powered directly from camera expansion port 5V output.
I still keep my BMMCC camera with broken HDMI and looking for cheap AV monitoring option for it, so i may try this thing.
For P4K you need additional HDMI to AV converter.

uPd. Seems feedback reviews for this product are not too great :(

Additional Feedback

Checked the monitor in the work-the image is small, you can compare as if you look at a 20-inch monitor from a distance of two meters, everything is visible, but small and far. The diopters in the eyepiece are not adjusted, the thread on the tuning ring and on the body do not match in diameters!!! ???, after 10 minutes of finding in the hands spontaneously opened the back cover of the monitor from which the wire goes out, all the electronics fell out!!!!. In general, the product is raw unfinished, who needs to turn on and work do not buy!!!.


I ordered the second time, the first fell apart (fastened very flimsy). Well, let's see how this one!?!
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Dmytro Shijan

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 2:16 am

There is also very small Kinefinity KineEVF, but it use proprietary connection and there is no any HDMI cable adapter for it yet.



Zacuto Kameleon is actually JTZ X01K EVF which was sold in very small amount on Facebook directly by JTZ (Fotga department). Seems they decide to cooperate with Zacuto to take attention of high end cinema market.

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Jean Capdouzey

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 9:54 am

EVF's cost more than the camera! So not even worth it.
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Dmytro Shijan

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 3:19 pm

EVFs are so expensive only because they are rather new tools, because they are manufactured in very small amounts and because there are only few companies in the world that actually manufacture them. More competition, more mass market sales - lower price.
I noticed that EVFs have tiny cooling fan, so it is not so simple to avoid components overhead in small sized body. Probably quality optics also not so simple to manufacture in small batches for low cost. Bad diopter may easy destroy crisp image.
But anyway current EVF prices are something outside of hobby market.
I really like to see one more SmallHD sidefinder concept. New version with some bugfixes and improvements.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 4:16 pm

There is the slowly developing vr headsets, having decent panels optics etc at decent price... perhaps a source for cheaper evf panels in some form. Then again I speculate there might be some not so cheap patent lisencing fees involved with cinema gear.

Now affordable 1080p lightweight hdmi EVF would be nice, at least it would make balancing of my rig easier. As for now I have "heavy" recording 7 inch monitor adding even more front left side weight. The viewing distance and how it fits in with the other stuff near the lens front end... it gets tight.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 4:27 pm

Also lens can cost more than the camera and be well worth it.
Lenses are usually used much longer than a camera. A good EVF could be also long lasting tool.


Well put Kim, both are more of an investment that can span several cameras these days.

Dmitry, EVFs are not really “new”, they have been around in one form or another and long time, and go back to the beginning of 1970’s electronic news gathering cameras for TV Broadcasting. They started out as miniature CRT tubes, with a high end optical lens system in front. A good ENG Camera EVF can cost from $3K to $6K, so $1500 to $2K for a new OLED EVF is a bargain in my book.

In the Cinematography world, EVFs go back to film cameras, at the end of the 20th Cent. When prism blocks were used to split out the lens image and send it to a small camera mounted on the camera to feed a director’s monitor snd later a EVF for the camera operator. These setups cost even more $.

But yes, inexpensive EVFs (under $3K) are relatively new, and Zacuto has been a leader in this field, with it’s first low cost EVF the ZFinder EVF Pro (which I still have). While a EVF can cost as much or more than a camera, is a rather recent event, with the drop in cost of good cameras, like BMDs Pocket ($995) and the new Pocket 4K at $1400. Previously, a GH5/S was the other small camera choice, and it was $2K, and when the Zacuto EVF came out, the BMCC was $4K, the AF100 $6K, and a Red Camera 10K and up.

So it is not that EVFs cost more than a Camera, their price is fairly stable, $2-4K, but their quality has improved with the release of OLEDs, bit rather the cost of good cameras has gone down. My original Sony EVF was a B&W CRT, that mounted to a specific Series of Sony Cameras. Have a Panasonic ENG camera, and you need to buy their EVF. Red also has an expensive EVF as does ARRI, most of which cost twice what a Zacuto Gratical Eye costs.

I took BMD’s Ursa Mini EVF and did the Wooden Camera mod, to get it down to a smaller size, with removable cables. The only thing it lacks is a HDMI input, which the new Zacuto EVF solves. Now, only if BMD would step up to the plate again, and do with a good EVF with HDMI/SDI inputs for use with cameras like the new Pocket 4K.

While we do not complain when buying a good $3K lens for a $1500 camera, why are we complaining about spending $1500 to $2K for a good EVF, so you can see what your are doing? In today’s ever changing camera market, the camera is becoming the least expensive part of the Video/Cinema camera rig. :roll:
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Dmytro Shijan

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostTue Jul 02, 2019 8:19 pm

Under "new", I mean universal HDMI EVFs. All those early days EVFs build in cameras use analogue AV signals and chips which are very simple, cheap and don't produce extra heat.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 am

ENG camera EVFs were not built in, but they were analog, and powered from the camera battery (CRT was lower hungry cimpato LCD or OLEDs), and were connected to a proprietary, multi-pin cable, Sony used 8-pin and later new cameras use 12-pin. They were not small, about the same size or larger hsn the BMD EVF. SDI is used on larger pro cameras as they do not come apart on their own, and are a universal standard. Prior to SDI, the output in Betacams was a 50-pin cable, that connected to an outboard recorder for a backup, and to a CCU in Studio applications. This has been replaced by the new fiber connection.
HDMI is a high definition media interface designed for consumer video equipment like TVs and DVD players, and now used on lower end cameras.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 5:04 am

Good point Ray, since the camera is marketed at Mirrorless users and DSLR shooters, makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 8:51 am

Kim Janson wrote:HDMI is not a good standard for EVF as it does not provide power and it does not have fixed resolution or refresh rate.


In perfect world all devices evolutionary should be switched to displayport interface instead of HDMI long time ago. Displayport is better designed, faster, simpler and connectors are better designed. Full sized DisplayPort even have secure latching clamps. Displayport cable also can provide power to devices.
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About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 12:47 pm

It always comes down to Betamax versus VHS. Innovation faces the resistance of inertia. Look at the ubiquitous presence of jpeg stills versus the many challengers over decades.

I’m likely as guilty as anyone. I’ll make that ‘useless’ monitor on the BMPCC4K work... while hoping BMD has a portable small EVF coming next year that will be ideal for the BMPCC4K. If they developed the BMVF for that smaller market, surely the huge market of the BMPCC4K justifies a new BMPVF.


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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 1:41 pm

rick.lang wrote: while hoping BMD has a portable small EVF coming next year that will be ideal for the BMPCC4K. If they developed the BMVF for that smaller market, surely the huge market of the BMPCC4K justifies a new BMPVF.


BM, and others, should have realized by now that there is a big marked for it. Not only for bmpcc, but other cameras as well. It could be that it’s just not possible with today’s technology. Even though it seem most unlikely. One thing that baffles me, is that we don’t even have a third party developer standing up for the task. You would think that the word “we got the smallest evf” is something of an achievement. But maybe the whole business think otherwise... who knows.
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rick.lang

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 1:57 pm

My guess is it’s in development but uncertain if it will launch by NAB2020. Would be great if a little BMPVF won Best in Show after this lengthy delay.


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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 2:06 pm



Hmmmm.... have anyone tried this?
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 3:29 pm

Interesting Oyvind, but any EVF that requires you to close one eye and squint is not going to work long term.

Rick, imalso would hope that BMD is developing a new EVF for Cameras like the Pocket 4K, but we will have to wait and see...
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 4:11 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Interesting Oyvind, but any EVF that requires you to close one eye and squint is not going to work long term.

Rick, imalso would hope that BMD is developing a new EVF for Cameras like the Pocket 4K, but we will have to wait and see...
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Yes I agree. It’s not optimal. But maybe good for focusing/ framing where it’s hard to stay beside the camera, like really low/high shots.

Wondering if someone have tried it though, and can deliver a decent review.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 03, 2019 4:25 pm

As far as I can find, this was a failed crowd funding device, never made it to market, try finding one!
So reviewing it is very difficult, if you can not buy one.
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ricardo marty

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 8:02 pm

A great new sidefinder type evf. I dont think it could be adapted to the p4k.


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... inder.html


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 8:34 pm

Yes, but this could be a $5K+ Viewfinder! And it is only going to work on a Arri Camera.
This is not a true Sidefinder either, it is two units, a monitor and a EVF in one unit. Per the B&H description, “EVF and LCD monitor may be used simultaneously”. So you are not using the small LCD screen, to use the OLED EVF. ;)
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 9:21 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, a $5K+ Viewfinder!
This is not a true Sidefinder either, it is two units, a monitor and a EVF in one unit. Per the B&H description, “EVF and LCD monitor may be used simultaneously”. So you are not using the small LCD screen, to use the OLED EVF. ;)


Yes I magined. But the form factor i perfect small and simple, at first look i think

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSat Jul 27, 2019 10:08 pm

Well Ray, I doubt this new Arri EVF will work on anything except a few Arri cameras. It seems to have a Arri proprietary camera connection, and who said this was going to be “inexpensive” :?:
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Jul 29, 2019 3:15 am

Ray, you need to try a real cine full size EVF like the BMD one, and then you will understand what Kim and I are taking about. Yes I can use my Nikon Z6 EVF but for video shooting it is hard to use, hard to see the entire shot, and as you mentioned is in the wrong place to use easily. I end up using the LCD screen on thr bsckmof my mirrorless cameras, including the Oly PenF. The Nikon Z6 EVF is bigger snd better than the Oly, but neither are something I would want to try and use to shoot a video scene.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Jul 29, 2019 5:00 am

Ray, I didn’t say it was wrong to have a small EVF, but it was a option I did not want.
And using a small EVF like the one in a mirrorless Camera even for 5 minutes does not work of me.
Glad it can work for you, but it is not what others like me and Kim want.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Jul 29, 2019 5:29 am

Yes, that is about the same size as the new Zacuto and not much smaller than my Wooden Camera mod of the BMD EVF. They are keeping the size down by having the video processor and lower boards in the camera, so fewer components in the actual EVF.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Jul 29, 2019 1:41 pm

Australian Image wrote:The EVF has been around for a decade or more, there's no development required other than to re-think the form-factor and features.

I totally agree with Ray. Someone here only see by luxury goods or very expensive. This is a big mistake. I have an old used Evf Cineroid which is ample with a strong sun.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Jul 31, 2019 2:57 am

Got tired of waiting. Got a good price for a sidefinder. Almost purchased the portkeys but its only powered by dtap.

Hopes this works

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostThu Aug 01, 2019 6:04 pm

Hi Guys
I too have been working on a Viewfinder for the P4k "Blackeye". I'm about a month away for production. I'm trying to work out a few minor issues with the lens as it has a High eyepoint diopter adjustment +- glass eyepiece. I will be sending out a few for reviews shortly.
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ricardo marty

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSun Sep 01, 2019 9:16 pm

FIlmboy wrote:Hi Guys
I too have been working on a Viewfinder for the P4k "Blackeye". I'm about a month away for production. I'm trying to work out a few minor issues with the lens as it has a High eyepoint diopter adjustment +- glass eyepiece. I will be sending out a few for reviews shortly.


Any news about your product?

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostMon Sep 02, 2019 12:12 am

Well, the product name is great.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSun Sep 08, 2019 5:05 pm

No answer. hopefully he is busy working on this project or on a gig.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 pm

Count me in when the're ready Kim.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 9:10 pm

Kim Janson wrote:The summer was really busy, I finally had some time for this project. This is the version we will send for first testers. The sun cover has been improved, there is additional support for Arca Swiss plate.



If there is interest there will be many versions, for different gages, with battery, with attachment for SSD etc. but you need to print them your self. We will make an assessory bag that provides, lens, magnets screws etc.


Its sounds great for many and your product seems good but id rather buy it done or almost done. I think Filmboy seems to be thinking in a finished product. I definitely won't buy a 3d printer nor do I know of any such service. I know it would probably be more expensive so let's see.

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 2:14 pm

Kim Janson wrote:The beauty of 3D printing is that yesterday this was an idea, now I can test how it feels, and yes, there will be few small changes, but this should be nice, should provide 2+ hours operational time.

IMG_5050.jpg


IMG_5047.jpg


Great idea. I think you should place it on left side to counter balance.

Ricardo Marty

IMG_5046.jpg


This is great for prototyping, but 3D printing makes possible also to have many different version, so something that fits perfectly your needs.

This kind of loupe is quite ideal for 3D printing, the DIY pack (lenses, magnets, screws etc.) can be send as a letter, and the printing material does not cost much.

There is many public places where it is free to 3D print (in Finland at lest)

I understand though perfectly that 3D printing / DIY is not for every one, it is great there will be alternatives.

For us this is a test project, we will be selling the DIY pack. If that provides enough income we will keep developing the loupe, version for different cages etc. also for Video Assist etc. and provide the printable files for anyone to print.

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 5:16 pm

very impressive. A loupe for the Pocket cameras is a good idea. Handheld footage will become much more stable.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Kim Janson wrote:I understand, I saw your rig on some other post.

However, I find this prety good for a very simple rig. It provides very good visibility on the screen and 3rd support point from the head when shooting. The camera buttons come easy to use blindly after some practise, everything is nicely acessible without taking eye from the loupe.



Touch screen needs to be operated only when accessing the camera menu, not needed during normal shooting. The loupe provides access to the touch screen when needed.


Looking good, Kim! Keep us up to date! Cheers.
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ricardo marty

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostThu Sep 19, 2019 4:40 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Still some updates during this week, now printing the first units



Does it have an adjustable diopter?

Is it sent whole?

Does it have space underneath to touch the screen?

Ricardo Marty
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostSat Sep 21, 2019 5:05 pm

Kim Janson wrote:The 3D printable files are available. I made a separate post about the 3D printable loop viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99285

And as related to the integrated SSD holder, request if you know good short USB C cables viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99280


Excellent - I intend to try and print them as soon as can get in front of my printer !
Many thanks for the files
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 3:01 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Yes, that is about the same size as the new Zacuto and not much smaller than my Wooden Camera mod of the BMD EVF. They are keeping the size down by having the video processor and lower boards in the camera, so fewer components in the actual EVF.
Cheers


This guy is using the bmd evf on a p6k without a mod He shows it at close to the end of the video.





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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 4:17 pm

Ricardo, I thought he specified the BMVF was modded by Tilta.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 4:32 pm

He did, and this is the Tilta mod of the EVF. ;)
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 4:53 pm

Denny Smith wrote:He did, and this is the Tilta mod of the EVF. ;)


agree
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 5:52 pm

rick.lang wrote:Ricardo, I thought he specified the BMVF was modded by Tilta.


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Yes, I stand corrected.

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Last edited by ricardo marty on Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 5:57 pm

One is not really any better than the other, they accomplish the same thing, but with a slightly different body configuration. Thr WC mod you can do yourself (not very hard, I did one) but while the Tilta started out a user mod, it quickly became a Tilta mod, requiring you to send them your EVF, adding the cost of postage and labor to the total cost.
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm

Denny Smith wrote:One is not really any better than the other, they accomplish the same thing, but with a slightly different body configuration. Thr WC mod you can do yourself (not very hard, I did one) but while the Tilta started out a user mod, it quickly became a Tilta mod, requiring you to send them your EVF, adding the cost of postage and labor to the total cost.
Cheers



It's still in the Zacuto price range but for something like that, I would not pay more than 900. I just purchased a sidefinder in the box for 650. and works great with my p4k but mainly purchased for the fs700. Still looking for a loop. I contacted Hoodman and they are working on something for a 5-inch screen. Don't know why it's so difficult specially for a company that specializes in hoods for cameras. With one for the 4-6pk they would make a ton of money, Thet had one for the original pocket.

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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 6:16 pm

Yes, by the time you add the cost of the mod to a new cost of the EVF it is. I got my BMD EVF used for $900, got one of the last WC mod kits on sale, and ended up with a total cost less than the new cost of the BMD EVF. I had a Side Finder, it was nice, but not a fan of its mirror setup and it is more bulky.

The new Zacuto Kameleon looks like it would just fit the bill, but it is too expensive, a slightly used Gratical HD is a better buy, even if a little larger, and one can be had for $900-1200. It takes HDMI in, gives SDI Cross conversion out and has its own battery, checks all the boxes, except size is still on the large side, but still smaller than the Side Finder.
Cheers
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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 7:01 pm

Every good option seems to cost as much as or more than the Blackmagic Video Assist 12G 7” which you may consider even more flexible on various cameras than the modded BMVF. I’m leaning that way for the film shoot next year as the director might be able to watch that monitor too whereas the VF is an operator tool only.


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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 7:49 pm

rick.lang wrote:Every good option seems to cost as much as or more than the Blackmagic Video Assist 12G 7” which you may consider even more flexible on various cameras than the modded BMVF. I’m leaning that way for the film shoot next year as the director might be able to watch that monitor too whereas the VF is an operator tool only.

Ill wait and see how the new bmd va works as a monitor.

Ricardo Marty



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Re: About a viewfinder for P4K ?

PostWed Sep 25, 2019 9:35 pm

I agree Rick, I find I am using a monitor more these days, and with the zoom to focus feature, a monitor is just as quick and easy to focus with. Mi ran several tests with my BM EVF and a SmallHD Focus OLED, the OLED monitor was just as easy to pull focus with.

I did some outdoor interviews at a local car show, and used the LCD more than the EVF, it was quicker and just as accurate.
Cheers
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