A topic about light(s)

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matthijsliethof

A topic about light(s)

PostTue Jun 04, 2013 10:19 am

So I was looking around and seeing I'm still learning I can't decide on what I want to pull the trigger to complement my BMCC.

I'm currently operating in the Netherlands and the weather ain't all that, mostly cloudy. So when shooting indoors the luxury of a window with a lot of light spilling in isn't something I have a lot of the time.

So I'm looking to upgrade to my first lighting kit (key, fill, hair).

One of my main concerns is:

How much light do I need? (compared to tungsten wattages)

I'm looking at some fluorescent 4x55w banks and some lightpanels 900leds 1200leds.

How much wattage is enough in tungsten terms?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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Jason Hinkle

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 8:06 am

It's a pretty difficult question to answer because lighting is more about the look you want. I actually think that lights are a good thing to rent, because you many times need to customize your light setup based on your location and the visual look you want for the scene. That's why film crews have a whole grip truck full of various odd lights used for specific situations.

As far at the brightness necessary, technically there are calculations you can do to convert the amount of lumens you need for a room in order to shoot at a desired f-stop. I personally like light so I can shoot at f8 if I want, which is probably kinda old-school. today everybody is shooting wide open practically in the dark. I don't personally like shooting wide open if I can avoid it, but everybody has their own taste so it all depends on what look you want.

If you can afford it, a basic Arri light kit with 3 or 4 lights will get you thought many situations for indoor lighting in a normal sized room. You can get the real deal, or look for knock-off kits on eBay. Another decent option is a television lighting kit like a lowel pro set.

Of course, not everybody can afford a proper kit and so compromises come up. Most people go with what is called "wild" lights, meaning you can't control them because they don't have lenses or barn doors. Shop lights are a pretty obvious choice in that category. In my experience, you can use them to get more illumination but it's difficult to really work on the craft of "sculpting" light until you have some lights that you can control. Also shop lights are tricky to bounce or block because they are so hot - they tend to burn things near them!

One cheap light that I like to use which I think has a really natural look is a paper china-ball with a photoflood light. You can get bulbs with 3200 temperature and they will match tungsten lights, which will allow you to get good color balance. They're fairly cheap too.

I personally don't like fluorescent lights that much. They are difficult to get the right colors and I find they can have a somewhat ugly greenish tint that is hard to get rid of. They can also create a buzz in your audio. They don't have lenses, obviously and they are very large. The pro-level fluorescent like kino-flo are supposed to be really good. Some people love 'em though. I just have not had good results.

Good luck to you, hope this helped a little..
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AdrianSierkowski

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 1:26 pm

I agree wholly with the above. (minus the F8, I try to aim for an F4).

Myself, the one kit I will always have with me if I'm shooting interviews or the like will be an Arri Softbank Kit. It's a 650 with chimera, 300, and 2x 150s.
This will get me by most of the time. It's cheap, I think I paid about $2000 for the whole kit or something like that which is basically the cost of just 2 Kinos.
The problems will come if you're trying to match daylight. In such situations you could CTB your lights, but you loose 2 stops! Thankfully you're using an ISO 800 camera so that can be ok... and /or you can do what I'd normally do which would be 1/2 CTB, thus keeping your interior lighting slightly warmer compared to any daylight you have coming in which I find more pleasing than having very cold daylight.

LEDS are awful. I haven't seen a good looking LED yet--- not even the new stuff @ Cinegear.
Hive Lights are very interesting and VERY EXPENSIVE.
Floros can be ok minus the fact that you can't dim most of them, they may flicker, and they are hard to match and sometimes green. This is less a problem these days than it used to be but can still be a problem. There are some high CRI tubs out now, some even in Medium Base (normal screw here in the US) which would be interesting to use.
Chinaballs are great. I recommend getting LanternLock style ones. Pricier, yes, but so worth it in the end.
Chimera and a few others also make china-silks--- same idea as a china ball but as a silk.
Rife Lights also work well as eye lights.
I also really like to use a 1K PAR64 VNSP to raise base ambiance in some rooms by just knocking it into the cieling (if it's white) or as a semi-book light (though WF bulb would be better for this).

there's my 2 cents.
Adrian Sierkowski
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 2:00 pm

I have this kit, and I'm pretty happy with it: http://www.flolight.com/fluorescent-lig ... 10hm3.html They also have 4banks and dimmable flous. Great bang for the buck and you can buy them in Europe. Also the tubes are not only much cheaper (5-6 Euros for one) than Kino tubes, but the CRI is better and no minus green needed.
Last edited by Frank Glencairn on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 2:03 pm

If I had the budget, I would buy a Dedolight kit though.

I also work a lot with any sort of tungsten light, china balls and silks since I like tungsten a lot.

This here - for example - I lit this with just a few bare 100w household bulbs, hanging from the tent pools.

Image
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Andreas Kaufmann

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 3:58 pm

looks amazing frank.. you shot it with the BMCC?
www.andreas-kaufmann.net

matthijsliethof

Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Thanks for all the reactions, I'm now sure I'll leave LED lighting alone :-)

Frank Glencairn wrote:I have this kit, and I'm pretty happy with it: http://www.flolight.com/fluorescent-lig ... 10hm3.html They also have 4banks and dimmable flous. Great bang for the buck and you can buy them in Europe. Also the tubes are not only much cheaper (5-6 Euros for one) than Kino tubes, but the CRI is better and no minus green needed.


I saw these at a dutch supplier, would you recommend I get dimmable fluos?

http://videoholland.nl/verlichting-acce ... -bank.html This dutch supplier sell them with OSRAM lights (a bit more euros then 5-6 euros). Would this be a good keylight for most situations?

So when researching the fluos I saw some information about ballasts and how they should be very good so there's no flickering, I have no idea what I should look for :? can someone enlighten me?
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 4:33 pm

My own tests have shown me that the BMCC doesn´t like tungsten. There is definitely more noise with tungsten lighting. I use those http://www.filmtools.com/kino-flo-cfl-2 ... -lamp.html with chinaballs a lot
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 4:51 pm

AndiDieMaus wrote:looks amazing frank.. you shot it with the BMCC?


Nope, FS100 and my G-Log Ultimate picture profile.
As much as I like the BMCs, the FS100 ist still an amazing little camera, if you know how to handle it right.
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rick.lang

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 4:53 pm

Felix Steinhardt wrote:My own tests have shown me that the BMCC doesn´t like tungsten. There is definitely more noise with tungsten lighting. I use those http://www.filmtools.com/kino-flo-cfl-2 ... -lamp.html with chinaballs a lot


Confusing web page since it mixes up K55 and K32 so you don't know which they really refer to.

Rick Lang
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 4:55 pm

MatthijsLiethof wrote:
I saw these at a dutch supplier, would you recommend I get dimmable fluos?


I have the budget version that is not dimmable, so I don't have any experience with those.
I usually have ND or frost, or even a 4 x 4 silk in front of them anyway. So that's how I control them.
And you always can take one of the tubes out, takes just 5 seconds.

Oh, one more thing, don't buy the tubes at a filmtool supplier, the profits are obscene there.

They are called Osram Dulux L and they come in different wattages and color temperatures. At Amazon they are 3.99 Euro. http://www.amazon.de/Dulux-55-Watt-840- ... B0016PNHU8
Last edited by Frank Glencairn on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 6:02 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:If I had the budget, I would buy a Dedolight kit though.


I use dedolights. Best light investment I ever made. Small, controllable, and they don't cook talent like my trusty old redheads (shame redhead bulbs aren't as trustworthy).

China balls are your friend. Get a few. They're cheap and can be used practically anywhere.

PS. Nice looking shot Frank - considering that was just a few naked bulbs dangling about - top notch.

matthijsliethof

Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 8:19 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:
MatthijsLiethof wrote:
I saw these at a dutch supplier, would you recommend I get dimmable fluos?


I have the budget version that is not dimmable, so I don't have any experience with those.
I usually have ND or frost, or even a 4 x 4 silk in front of them anyway. So that's how I control them.
And you always cant take one of the tubes out, takes just 5 seconds.

Oh, one more thing, don't buy the tubes at a filmtool supplier, the profits are obscene there.

They are called Osram Dulux L and they come in different wattages and color temperatures. At Amazon they are 3.99 Euro. http://www.amazon.de/Dulux-55-Watt-840- ... B0016PNHU8



Thanks for that amazon tip 8-) that'll save me alot of money.
Now I just have to find a good supplier in europe/netherlands since the one that I posted earlier seems to have enormous profit margins. Would be even cheaper to let the kit fly over from the states from B&H.

So your 3x Flolight kit equals 3x500w hotlight equivalent (sorry if i keep on going on about that, just trying to make sense out of things), If you're fighting daylight and trying to match it have you found your kit lacking in output? (matching wouldn't be a problem I guess with the right bulbs)


I'm just stepping into the 'whole' lighting your video/film ;) because I want to improve myself and the quality of my video. And I can honestly say I'm really happy with all the help I am getting from you guys (are there any girls here?) :lol:

I didn't hop on the filmschool bandwagon and am trying to sort off do it the autodidactic way and school myself, because I found out too late that video/film is where my passion is. Which means trial and error and a lot of forum/youtube time :roll: (any tips about lighting scene's and more are welcome :lol: , a finger in the right direction is very much appreciated)


- Why would someone get a 4ft vs a 2ft etc.? (I just saw a KinoFlo 4ft 4bank 1800+ euro's :cry: :( )
- The KinoFLo models have a ballast hanging on the stand? Why would that be better?
- crawling around on ebay I found this http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8m-Stand-Cool ... 1089681658 : would this be any good? Based on the assumption a fluo light is as good or as bad as its bulbs? (cheap light with good bulbs = expensive light with good bulbs?)
Last edited by matthijsliethof on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andreas Kaufmann

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 8:29 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:
MatthijsLiethof wrote:
I saw these at a dutch supplier, would you recommend I get dimmable fluos?


I have the budget version that is not dimmable, so I don't have any experience with those.
I usually have ND or frost, or even a 4 x 4 silk in front of them anyway. So that's how I control them.
And you always cant take one of the tubes out, takes just 5 seconds.

Oh, one more thing, don't buy the tubes at a filmtool supplier, the profits are obscene there.

They are called Osram Dulux L and they come in different wattages and color temperatures. At Amazon they are 3.99 Euro. http://www.amazon.de/Dulux-55-Watt-840- ... B0016PNHU8



Which ballast (vorschaltgerät) do you use for the Osram Dulux? Cant find one
www.andreas-kaufmann.net
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 10:10 pm

MatthijsLiethof wrote:Now I just have to find a good supplier in europe/netherlands

I


- Why would someone get a 4ft vs a 2ft etc.? (I just saw a KinoFlo 4ft 4bank 1800+ euro's :cry: :( )
- The KinoFLo models have a ballast hanging on the stand? Why would that be better?
- crawling around on ebay I found this http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8m-Stand-Cool ... 1089681658 : would this be any good? Based on the assumption a fluo light is as good or as bad as its bulbs? (cheap light with good bulbs = expensive light with good bulbs?)


Try this: http://www.schnittpunkt.de/distribution ... dukte.html
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tageslicht-Flach ... 2ebe4b689a
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Studioset-220W-2 ... 1c2f87938b
http://www.ebay.de/itm/330W-Tageslicht- ... 51addad3cb
http://www.ebay.de/itm/220W-Tageslicht- ... 35c82e1a24


I find the output more than enough in most situations. If I really need more light, I also have 2 4banks.

KinoFlo is way overpriced IMHO and I don't like what they do to skintones.
No way to gel that out, it's not just the green spike. The Osram tubes are way better for skin.

Modern ballasts are smaller and cooler these days, so they don't have to hang em anymore.
The Ebay kit doesn't look bad per se, but I would not trust the fresnel.

@AndiDieMaus: I don't "use" any ballast by the way, the Flowlights come with a ballast build in.
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

I told you so :-)

matthijsliethof

Re: A topic about light(s)

PostWed Jun 05, 2013 10:59 pm

Frank Glencairn wrote:I find the output more than enough in most situations. If I really need more light, I also have 2 4banks.


What situation would it be that you need more light than the 110w fluoset if I may ask, :geek: :oops:
- I'm guessing the total light output of the 3 point lighting you do is enough for most situations, because the light adds up? (do you use 3 point lighting?)


I'm trying to find out if my leaning towards a larger light 330w/220w (the dimmable version) combined with two lesser lights for fill and hair light (say the 110w economy version) would make the 'set' more adaptable to some situations.

(I'm pretty much always a one man band atm.)

-when I need to be more mobile and mobility limits me to a 1 light setup, I would have the option to only bring the 220w/330w light.
- And when I don't have that restriction I can use the dimmer on the 'expensive' (220/330w) light to match it with the 110w economy versions.

Does that seem like logic to you?

Sorry if I seem nitpicky :oops: thanks again in advance!

You really are a lifesaver @Frank I would never have found out that Flächenleuchten would be the same as fluorescent lights (in dutch it would simply be 'fluorescentielampen')

So should we be worried? Anyone experienced giving the talent a nice tan with the uv light coming from fluorescents :lol: :lol: just trying to find reviews got me on this :P
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Justin Carrig

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostThu Jun 06, 2013 6:52 am

Just wanted to jump in and try to dispel the rumours that LED's are horrible by showing some nice usage of them in The Master in some tight spots... blankets of custom made LED panels taped to low ceilings.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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AdrianSierkowski

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Re: A topic about light(s)

PostThu Jun 06, 2013 5:07 pm

YMMV as that was 1) film origination and 2) properly color corrected by professional colorists with budget to 3) purchase very high end custom LEDs.

Truth is as soon as you look at even an LED on your hand, or at least me hand, you can see how lacking it is. For 5600K sure you can get by with it, but a kino or a hmi will be cheaper or give much more throw-- and yes i'd say even the high end LEDs from say Arri or the like.
And even then you can still see a bit of the green spike on the tableclothes.. which is what the LEDs seem to be lighting.
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