Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

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Michael Moore

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Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 11:34 am

Could the Ursa Mini Pro G2 owners to share here information about how much can increase the ISO in low light situation?
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timbutt2

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 3:49 pm

It varies depending on the situation, but I've turned up ISO to 3200 ISO with some pleasing results. This was after the sun went down at dusk when there was still daylight. At the same time I've also done the 800 to 3200 ISO during a fashion show and found it looked great. I settled on 1600 for that fashion show, but nonetheless I got pleasing enough results at 3200.

It's all a matter of how much noise you're willing to accept. The noise floor at 1600 ISO is very film grain like to me so I can accept it. And even 3200 can have a film grain quality to it.

Just remember don't shoot in practically no light and expect 3200 ISO with an exposure increase of 2 stops to save horribly underexposed footage. You should do everything you can to properly expose your image.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSun Nov 03, 2019 11:27 am

timbutt2 wrote:It varies depending on the situation, but I've turned up ISO to 3200 ISO with some pleasing results. This was after the sun went down at dusk when there was still daylight. At the same time I've also done the 800 to 3200 ISO during a fashion show and found it looked great. I settled on 1600 for that fashion show, but nonetheless I got pleasing enough results at 3200.


ISO 3200 + Sigma 18-35 f1.8 could cover any interior situation without controlled scene (no time to light the scene with led panel) like in restaurant wedding situation?
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostMon Nov 04, 2019 1:11 am

Maybe.

You might be better off using 4K Pocket plus a Metabones Speedbooster with that Sigma. Between the higher clean ISO (thanks to dual gain sensor) on the Pocket plus the extra stop of light from the speed booster, you'll get two (or more) clean stops of low light out of that setup over the same lens on the UMP G2.
The cost is that you'll be giving up a couple stops of dynamic range with high ISO on the Pocket vs the 4.6K, so it really depends on the situation.

If the scene is high contrast with only some lower light areas, I'd stick with the UMP G2.
While if it is just generally quite dimly lit all around (thus not much dynamic range to worry about), I'd use the 4K Pocket + Speedbooster.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 05, 2019 1:12 pm

Its truth that exist an unofficial firmware for UMP G2 how increase ISO at 6400?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 05, 2019 5:53 pm

Michael Moore wrote:Could the Ursa Mini Pro G2 owners to share here information about how much can increase the ISO in low light situation?


You must reduce iso with low light and use a lut to preview a brighter picture.
Low iso = more dr for shadow more recover later in post
High iso = more dr for light more recover on high lights

See the iso Dr table from Blackmagic Design manual
Image

Ursa is not low light camera, you need a bit of light to have good picture.

https://vimeo.com/298892742/c4eb50aa52

But with low iso strategy you can have clean dark picture, here you can see a g1 Ursa Mini Pro lowlight



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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostWed Nov 06, 2019 10:15 am

Changing the ISO on the G2 only changes the gamma curve, it does not increase the gain of the sensor.

Therefore whatever you shoot can be changed in post with identical results as if you had done it in camera.

Keep the camera at 800iso and get as much light as you possibly can onto the sensor, use 360 degree shutter and lower framerate if at all possible. Do not expose for 3200iso as doing so only serves to increase noise by reducing light on the sensor.
Create a Lut as suggested above to show increased exposure in post.

If you are looking at lenses the sigma art zooms are incredible for low light as is the 50mm F1.4.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostWed Nov 06, 2019 9:18 pm

For UMP G2 understand that the maxim ISO value for a clean image is 1600 . What is this maxim ISO level for BMPCC 4K or BMPCC 6K?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostWed Nov 06, 2019 9:42 pm

You can take it to 6400 IS0 (or more), depending on how much noise reduction you're able to do (Neat Video works best to remove it) and your ability to correct color shifts that happen as the ISO is raised. Also need to be aware of how ISO affects the distribution of the dynamic range relative to middle gray (there's a chart in the Pocket camera manual that illustrates it).
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 11:45 am

Somebody tell me that theoretically in-camera noise reduction is inferior to noise reduction in post. How i can practically to denoise the pictures shooting at 3200 ISO with UMP G2? How i can use Davince Resove, Neat Video or another sotware to obtain the seam clean image at 3200 ISO like Sony FS5/FS7 internally?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 12:10 pm

Well, that is what native ISO on the FS7 looks like when there is no internal noise reduction applied:

CALEG_LO056_000-crop.jpg
CALEG_LO056_000-crop.jpg (693.31 KiB) Viewed 913 times
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 11:15 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:Well, that is what native ISO on the FS7 looks like when there is no internal noise reduction applied:


Sorry Robert, but your sample is not clear focussing and i could not see what you are trying to tell me. Could be more precise please?FS7 RAW without internal denoise have same noise like UMP G2 at same high ISO 3200?
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostFri Nov 08, 2019 11:36 pm

Michael Moore wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:Well, that is what native ISO on the FS7 looks like when there is no internal noise reduction applied:


Sorry Robert, but your sample is not clear focussing and i could not see what you are trying to tell me. Could be more precise please?FS7 RAW without internal denoise have same noise like UMP G2 at same high ISO 3200?


It is all about the noise. Right click the image and select "open in new tab" to see it in full resolution.
The focus doesn't matter (I can't show more of the frame, as this is footage from a client).

This is how the FS7 looks like on a well lit greenscreen in ISO2000 (don't know the f-stop). It has much more noise than the UMP G2 in ISO 3200.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSat Nov 09, 2019 3:06 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
This is how the FS7 looks like on a well lit greenscreen in ISO2000 (don't know the f-stop). It has much more noise than the UMP G2 in ISO 3200.


Robert, all i want to know is how i can get same clean picture if i shooting with UMP G2 at 3200 ISO and i use software denoise versus if i shooting with FS7 and i use internal camera denoise. Can tell me what technique i must to use it to obtain comparable results?
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Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSat Nov 09, 2019 4:39 pm

The best result I ever obtained is by neat video.
Usually I shoot neat video card ( a picture with different target) in the same situation of light of shooting, I repeat if I change location or iso.
This help me to clean up noise and not dectails from shooting of Blackmagic Design cameras, Sony cameras, Panasonic cameras and Fuji cameras.
Using neat video target allow you to clean up better the noise, and keep dectails.
Neat video allow you to select kind and level of noise frequency to remove.

Too often in camera denoise are too aggressive.
If I shoot 4k to fhd I use in camera denoiser but I can (time) and I need (4K delivery) I prefer to avoid in camera denoise and I prefer to denoise shooting with near video.
I had 3 980ti that allow me to render fast denoise step with near video and resolve.
If I had less time some times I use temporal and spatial denoise of resolve which is good but more aggressive than neat video.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSat Nov 09, 2019 5:56 pm

Michael Moore wrote:All i want to know is how i can get same clean picture if i shooting with UMP G2 at 3200 ISO and i use software denoise versus if i shooting with FS7 and i use internal camera denoise.
They are different systems. If you need a camera to perform exactly like the FS7, perhaps it makes more sense to simply use an FS7.
The Ursa Mini Pro G2 works amazingly well up to 1600 ISO. At 3200 ISO, you may get some fixed pattern noise that is difficult (if not impossible) to completely remove depending on how well exposed the image is and where you set the shadows in the grade.
When I know that I'm going to be facing consistently low light levels, instead of the G2 I use a 4K Pocket + Metabones speed booster. The combo costs about $2K or can be rented for cheap, and is pretty easy to find in most markets these days. The Pocket records to the same codecs as the UMP G2 and the image matches well without much fuss in post.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSat Nov 09, 2019 10:11 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:The Ursa Mini Pro G2 works amazingly well up to 1600 ISO. At 3200 ISO, you may get some fixed pattern noise that is difficult (if not impossible) to completely remove depending on how well exposed the image is and where you set the shadows in the grade.



In this video UMP G2 looks to be usable at 3200 ISO, i don/t see FPN or very much noise compared with Canon C200. I wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=BAZzeo6AXBM&feature=emb_logo
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSat Nov 09, 2019 10:38 pm

Michael Moore wrote:In this video UMP G2 looks to be usable at 3200 ISO, i don/t see FPN or very much noise compared with Canon C200. I wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=BAZzeo6AXBM&feature=emb_logo

You are not wrong. As I mentioned, it depends on how well exposed the image is and where the shadows are in the grade. Those are variables that different users of the G2 don't hold constant. Some users shoot a stop or two (or more) underexposed and then (predictably) complain that there is noise in the image. Other people expose properly, but want to pull up the shadows on their grades, thus digging below the noise floor and revealing FPN. But, if exposed well, and graded with a standard transform or curve that doesn't pull up the the shadows, yes 3200 ISO can work just fine.

Best thing is just to shoot some tests using your usual method of setting exposure and running the images through your normal post workflow to see if you get the results you want.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostSun Nov 10, 2019 11:24 am

You need to test your camera anyway, since FPN seems to be sample dependent.
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Michael Moore

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostMon Nov 11, 2019 1:52 pm

Uli Plank wrote:You need to test your camera anyway, since FPN seems to be sample dependent.

Some people told that their UMP G2 dont have FPN even at high ISO. Its a lottery to give a good sensor in camera?BM services replace the camera if you sent a pictures with FPN?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostMon Nov 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Michael Moore wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:You need to test your camera anyway, since FPN seems to be sample dependent.

Some people told that their UMP G2 dont have FPN even at high ISO. Its a lottery to give a good sensor in camera?BM services replace the camera if you sent a pictures with FPN?

people can told they not meet fpn also at high iso be cause they expose correctly high iso.

Image
nice fpn, right? this FPN is from canon cinema camera.
every camera had fpn if underexposed heavely.
sometimes someone see FPN on correctly exposed picture, but it's a unlucky situation.
i shooted many pictures with tons of cameras and if you not underexpose and not push up shadow heavely you see quite good camera.
if your fpn appear on right picture, you can sent to bmd to recalibrate sensor, but usually FPN is from heavy underexposed picture and worst developed picture.
i remember a good thread here about correctly developing of dark picture to rise up light without to build too much noise and fpn.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68170&p=382605&hilit=underexpose#p382605
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostMon Nov 11, 2019 10:15 pm

Like a few other people said, it really depends on the situation. With bad orange and weak street lights, I get tons of FPN at ISO 1600+. But in a well controlled environnement with good quality lights, I've used ISO 3200 shots for commercial work.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 12, 2019 6:31 am

That brings up a good point — all digital cameras, including BMD cameras, will be noisier under tungsten light than under daylight. Why? Because tungsten light sources have hardly any blue in them, so the blue channel gets very little signal under tungsten, thus leading to a noisier image. So, you will likely find ISO 3200 works better under daylight balanced lighting than under tungsten.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 12, 2019 7:36 am

And it will be even worse under sodium vapor lamps, they have no blue at all.
In my country they are all over the nightly streets these days.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 12, 2019 10:17 am

Its a difference between shooting in full vs UHD resolution with UMP G2 in low light situation? its a difference between shooting in Prores vs BRAW with UMP G2 in low light situation?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro G2 low light usable ISO

PostTue Nov 12, 2019 11:51 am

If you shoot oversampled, downsampling to the target resolution will reduce noise to some degree.
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