warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

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jasonparker

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warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 4:42 pm

I've been using 128gig Lexar 3600x cards with the ursa mini 4k for a while (only shooting RAW 3:1), and they only work flawlessly when I use one card at a time. On two occasions when I have cards in both slots, when one gets full and the camera starts using the second card, the first card gets corrupt. I've been able to restore most, not all of the data from the first card by using diskdoctor, but it's definitely a repeatable problem.
Last edited by jasonparker on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 7:08 pm

Ouch! And BMD has not authorized these yet. I wonder if anyone from BMD would kindly report on the progress of testing the Lexar 3600x cards as I'm one of many who plan to purchase these cards shortly when the Mini 4.6K PL camera are shipping.

Don't be shy now, small fortunes are at stake!

Edit:
Can you please confirm, Jason, is this a problem with 3600x cards as written or were the cards 3400x? Thanks.

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jasonparker

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 9:13 pm

The issue happened with 3600x and 3400x cards. I don't think it had to do with the cards, since they work flawlessly with one card at a time. Something is happening when one card fills up and the camera switches over to the second card. Could also have something to do with RAW recording during the switch between cards.

It may be worth having any 4k mini users test using dual cards to see if the problem is repeatable.

The first time it happened cards were formatted with hfs, the second time they were formatted exFAT, always formatted using the camera. Both times the card became unreadable by the camera (won't play back more than one clip) and computer.

These cards are on the BMD approved list I thought.

I've since returned the 4k mini for the 4.6k - Haven't tested the issue yet with 4.6.
Last edited by jasonparker on Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 10:03 pm

Hi jasonparker,

Have you reported this to your local support office as this is not a known issue to us? Do you recall if this was RAW, or RAW3:1?
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jasonparker

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 10:54 pm

it was RAW 3:1

No I did not report it, sorry.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostTue Mar 22, 2016 11:53 pm

I can't say I used two cards in the slots when recording RAW or RAW 3:1, but I did a shoot on Saturday recording Prores 422 on Mini 4k with 256gb & 128gb 3400x Lexar cards in at the same time. I kept switching from doing 60fps shots to 23.98 and I found the camera automatically kept switching to slot1 256 card when at 60fps, and back to slot2 for the 24fps stuff. So the cards were switching back and forth pretty often, but with no problems. I was also happy to see later that the camera kept numbering the clips in chronological order, regardless of which card it was recording onto.
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rick.lang

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostWed Mar 23, 2016 3:19 am

If you were recording HFS+ I can understand it does take some time to ensure all data is written completely to the card, but for exFAT, it should be a faster and simpler write, although any write can fail if the card is removed too quickly. BMD will know from their end how they ensure data is written to the card.


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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 12:57 am

Just as an update. My 4.6k arrived today and the problem still exists. Use 2 cards at once, when one fills up and the camera rolls over to the other card, one of the cards becomes corrupt and unreadable by the computer.

Worked fine when I tested it recording 3:1 RAW, then the problem happened when I tried again recording prores.

The problem is avoidable but using one card at a time, but hopefully BMC will find what causes this to happen.
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Kristian Lam

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 1:14 am

Ok, the 3600x are not on our list as we're still testing it and we can't get hold of enough cards to properly qualify it.

Ok, just to be clear.

This issue is happening on both the 3600x and 3400x. Is this correct?

This issue happens only when recording ProRes and not RAW, RAW 3:1 or 4:1. Is this correct?
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 1:34 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Ok, the 3600x are not on our list as we're still testing it and we can't get hold of enough cards to properly qualify it.

Ok, just to be clear.

This issue is happening on both the 3600x and 3400x. Is this correct?

This issue happens only when recording ProRes and not RAW, RAW 3:1 or 4:1. Is this correct?


Thanks for the update, Kristian. I was going to open my 3600x boxes. I think I will delay that activity.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 1:44 am

Kristian Lam wrote:Ok, the 3600x are not on our list as we're still testing it and we can't get hold of enough cards to properly qualify it.

Ok, just to be clear.

This issue is happening on both the 3600x and 3400x. Is this correct?

This issue happens only when recording ProRes and not RAW, RAW 3:1 or 4:1. Is this correct?




The issue is happening recording prores and RAW 3:1. Have not tested lossless raw, or raw 4:1.

It's happened with both 3400x cards and 3600x cards. I'm attempting to read the media on a 2015 iMac using a Lexar cr1 reader.

There have been no issues with the cfast media when using one card at a time. Used 8 different cards and recorded several hours of footage.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 1:53 am

Jason, you do need to replace that CR1 reader as it has been very problematic. You need the new CR2 reader from Lexar. I wonder how f that's why your finding things corrupt.


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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 2:17 am

rick.lang wrote:Jason, you do need to replace that CR1 reader as it has been very problematic. You need the new CR2 reader from Lexar. I wonder how f that's why your finding things corrupt.


Thanks for the suggestion Rick. Will try that out if nobody else reports this same problem, or if BMD doesn't acknowledge it's an issue with the camera.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 2:31 am

rick.lang wrote:If you were recording HFS+ I can understand it does take some time to ensure all data is written completely to the card, but for exFAT, it should be a faster and simpler write, although any write can fail if the card is removed too quickly. BMD will know from their end how they ensure data is written to the card.


Wow. This is the first I've heard that there is a functional difference in the camera between the two formatting options. Can you provide your source for that info and in what situations the difference between them matters? Should I always be formatting my BM camera cards as exFAT?
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 2:51 am

rick.lang wrote:Jason, you do need to replace that CR1 reader as it has been very problematic. You need the new CR2 reader from Lexar. I wonder how f that's why your finding things corrupt.


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Sorry for going slightly off-topic here. I don't have an HR2 so I was just wondering whether the CR2 needs a power plug, or if it will get phantom power from say my MacBook via the USB cable. I couldn't find a definite answer to that in the Lexar FAQs. They just say that the CR2 works without the hub and hence makes it a good portable choice. But no word on where its power is coming from when not connected to the hub.

Either way, I guess there are cheaper options for CFast 2.0 card readers.

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warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 2:56 am

Jamie, when I wrote that, I was just trying to think of things that might produce a corrupted card. HFS+ was created by Apple to ensure greater integrity of the write operations to a disk. I've forgotten the details, although maybe there's something on Wikipedia. Writing to the disk involved some exchange of status information to be sure all data was written. ExFAT doesn't do that additional check, but there isn't a problem with that normally and it's the preferred format for Digistor SSDs (On the BMD approved list) so it has to be good. It is faster, more efficient, than HFS+, but HFS+ can be a little safer. Is that explanation all right, Jamie, or would you like me to dig deeper?

From Wikipedia:
"HFS+ was introduced with the January 19, 1998 release of Mac OS 8.1.[2]

With the release of the Mac OS X 10.2.2 update on November 11, 2002, Apple added optional journaling features to HFS Plus for improved data reliability. These features were easily accessible in Mac OS X Server, but only accessible through the command line in the standard desktop client.[9]

With OS X v10.3, all HFS Plus volumes on all Macs are set to be journaled by default. Within the system, an HFS Plus volume with a journal is identified as HFSJ."

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Last edited by rick.lang on Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 3:03 am

@Hussain Abdullah
The CR2 is drawing power from the connection to the computer. Yes, there are less expensive card readers such as the CR1, but Lexar has dropped the CR1 I think due to the complaints they received and replaced it with the more expensive and more reliable CR2 card reader. Compared to the cost of the video you shoot and the cost of the media on which you record, the card reader and the cable are very inexpensive so I wouldn't risk trying to find the cheapest reader and cable but try to find the most reliable.


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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 3:42 am

Makes sense. Thanks Rick!
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Mar 25, 2016 11:56 pm

rick.lang wrote:@Hussain Abdullah
The CR2 is drawing power from the connection to the computer. Yes, there are less expensive card readers such as the CR1, but Lexar has dropped the CR1 I think due to the complaints they received and replaced it with the more expensive and more reliable CR2 card reader. Compared to the cost of the video you shoot and the cost of the media on which you record, the card reader and the cable are very inexpensive so I wouldn't risk trying to find the cheapest reader and cable but try to find the most reliable.


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Thanks, Rick. It's great to know that it gets its power from the computer. And you are absolutely right in terms of comparing the cost for the card reader with an expensive shoot.

How about third party readers like the one from SanDisk or Transcend? do you or anyone else have experience with these?
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostSat Mar 26, 2016 12:33 am

Lexar is telling me the only difference between the CR1 and CR2 is Thunderbolt support:


"Thank you for contacting Lexar. We apologize for the inconvenience that you have encountered with our product. We can provide a warranty replacement for the reader but unfortunately, we can't exchange the reader for another kind as per the warranty replacements. The only difference between the CR1 and CR2 is that the CR2 is compatible with the Thunderbolt 2 ports."
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warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostSat Mar 26, 2016 2:16 am

Not very helpful if the problem is the CR1. Is there any chance it's simply the cable? Although because you have not problem when you're not recording by daisy-chaining, it could be that I put too much emphasis on the CR1 based on other anecdotal reports.

My recollection is that Lexar's response to some reported problems was that they had a new card reader, the CR2, coming. I plan on buying the CR2. Apologies if this proves to be a blind alley, Jason. Hope BMD has some ideas they're exploring with you next week.


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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostTue Sep 13, 2016 6:14 am

I am furious as this exact problem happened to me yesterday the first time I ever used 2 cards.
In RAW 4:1 if flipped fro second card to first now cannot read data from the second slot card.
I cannot believe this had been a thing since day and no one said anything.
WTF is the point of having this 2 card function if this is even a remote possibility!
I believe since this is an ongoing problem BMD should retrieve data for people!
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostTue Sep 27, 2016 8:27 pm

I just wanted to pass on that this happened to us as well this past weekend. Our setup:

URSA Mini 4.6k
ProRes 422 HQ 4k @ 24fps
2X Lexar CFast 2.0 128GB 3600x Cards

When the one filled up it went to the other card and that first card is full of nothing but corrupt clips now. According to BMD's latest list these cards are approved. Does this have anything to do with the beta 2.0 camera firmware? Also we had just formatted these cards in camera prior to shooting.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostWed Sep 28, 2016 2:18 am

I just tested my Ursa mini 4.6k PL. I pointed it out the window at people and cars passing by, i tried recording a busy scene. I used a Lexar 3600x 256g in slot 1 and a 3400x 126g in slot 2 ..set to Raw 4.6k no compression at 24fps 13 mins run time on the first card, 6 mins on the second card. No problems here, no dropped frames on either card. Playback in camera was fine too
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostWed Sep 28, 2016 2:35 pm

Hi guys! I hate to be the one to disagree, but I have 3 Lexar 256gb 3400x and a CR1 reader, and never had any problems using both cards at the same time. I now don't do that any more (I have one plugged it while the other one sits inside the slot but not connected) just in case que director wants to change resolution (which would make the camera switch slots if both cards are in).

But anyways, no problems here.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostMon Feb 27, 2017 2:38 pm

I wanted to share my own experience and discovery here.

I have 2 lexar 256gb3600x and had no issue until… I let the um46 fill one card and automatically switch using the other. Then 1 of the card were unreadable in mac. I dont remember witch one, if it were the card in the slot 1 or slot 2.

My card are always in HFS+ and using Lexar CR1 reader

1 time the card were unreadable on mac but were readable in camera.

The corruption file happened with different codec format. The cards were formatted in camera and sometimes in mac OS X.

I am using SoftRaid lite since a while to manage my raid and recently I discovered I can certify a disk. Here the info from the software:

«Can I certify the CF and HDSC cards for my camera?
You can also use SoftRAID Lite's Certify Disk function with all your digital camera media such as CF and HDSC cards. If you certify a card before you use it in a camera, you will be assured that all of the space on the card can read and write reliably and are less likely to lose pictures due to a defective card. In professional photography environments, we recommend certifying cards every 30 - 60 days.
….

Why does the last pass of a disk certify write only zeros?
If you ever have to recover a file that you have accidentally erased or send your disk to a data recovery service after it has failed, it is much easier to locate the files you need if all the unused space on the disk is filled with zeros. SoftRAID helps makes it easier to recover files by filling disks with zeros during the last pass of certifying a disk. »


after successfully certified the cards; I have tested 4 full ingest in slot 1 with both cards. There were no cards in slot 2.
I also retested full 4 ingest with 2 cards letting automatically fill one and ingest on the other.
result show no corrupt file.

I can not be sure the issue came from formatting the card in camera. But for the moment I think I will avoid formatting the card in camera. Certifying the card thought convince me that the card, the cr1 and cable were fine.

Regards,
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rick.lang

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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostMon Feb 27, 2017 4:46 pm

Harold, I may be wrong, but I think Lexar has replaced the CR1 card reader with a CR2 version. It was my understanding that there were occasional problems reported with the CR1. Appreciate the details you have provided, and I assume you are on the latest firmware updates, but I think it is still recommended by BMD to format the CFast 2 cards in camera rather than externally.

It is very frustrating to debug these issues with complete confidence due to the several possible causes in the workflow. I hope you have continued success with your approach, but I'd also experiment by testing the recommended approach again as it may also be fine. If media plays in camera, but issues are discovered pulling media from the card and so on, it's a safe bet it's a failing cable or card reader at fault. Sometimes failures are erratic before they become permanent. So it may fail, then be good for weeks, then fail hard.


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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 10:39 pm

I potentially have this problem. The card is a sandisk 128GB not a lexar but is corrupt. I played clips back in camera on location. The card was taken out and I tried to copy the files as I have always done but my Mac said that the card was not initialised/formatted. I tired a PC which also said that the card is not formatted. I put the card back in the camera and the camera says the card is not formatted. Is this what people have been finding with corrupt cards? The card was getting full, it could have got full. The second card was empty and I don't think it switched slot. It was recording raw lossless.
More important question, is there any way to recover this data?
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 11:18 pm

Stephen, I'm had a similar issue recently on my feature.

Got back to the studio, camera and computer didn't recognize the card.

I used Card Rescue (Full Version) and got almost everything back (missing one video file). It takes some serious effort once you get it all back as it saves them as consecutively numbered TIFF files and WAV files, but I didn't lose a day on one of the cameras.

Had a window in Finder open with the rescued files. In Resolve, I organized the WAV files by timecode. The file numbering wasn't consecutive from Card Rescue. It grabs the information and numbering is second priority.

Changed TIFF to DNG inside Finder.

In Resolve, I pulled each WAV into a timeline and dropped frames in to match. I could see the TIFF file names/numbering.

Back in Finder, I put the matching TIFFs and the WAV files into a folder. Did this for all of the 49,500+ frames.

Inside each folder, I renamed the files (feature in Finder) to use the Blackmagic nomenclature.

Dragged these back into Resolve and am back to cutting the feature. All the metadata was included.

Card Rescue only has a few formats it works with, so I used TIFF and just changed the file extension to DNG. The information was still embedded.

I don't work for Card Rescue and there may be a few other programs out there. It took me a few days to tweak this process and thought I can save someone else the stress.

I did lose one video file even though I had the audio, and the worst part is that card is now dead. Assuming it was end of line.
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Re: warning: using 2 cards with Ursa Mini 4k and 4.6k

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 10:53 am

Benjamin you saved my shoot, thank you. From reading further forums, it seems I may have simply fallen foul of not ejecting the card from my mac before putting in a new one. Possibly I took the 2 cards out and put the blank one in first, saw it was blank and thought "no need to eject that, there is nothing on it to corrupt". But then when you insert the next card, the mac does not know it is a new card and corrupts it. Plenty of other threads on the topic now!

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