Jerky Panning

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AndreasK

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:36 am

Guys, if you think your camera is broken if you get this jerky panning I'm glad to buy it from you. As the video is 25p I suppose those are even euro cameras?
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:41 am

Not euro specific, all the bmcc cameras have the 25p Frame Rate Option.
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/product ... techspecs/
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AndreasK

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 8:34 am

Yeah but he filmed 25p, he wouldn't being in the usa, don't you think? ;)
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 9:05 am

AndreasK wrote:Yeah but he filmed 25p, he wouldn't being in the usa, don't you think? ;)

Yes indeed, I guess I missed your point.
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 1:45 pm

Let this be a lesson to all amateur DP's,
This my friends is what not to do, and I apologize in advance to the up-loader.

Not any day in hell you should pan this fast, learn your craft, and buy the best Head you can afford, period.

and I'm not talking hookers, watch this and understand why you need to treat the BMCC as a true cinema camera.

Last edited by Darryl Gregory on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 2:22 pm

Yet here is another fast pan video, But this video is absolutely beautiful even with fast pans,

in this video you will find the pans some what acceptable while following the ducks at about 00:29,
and yet when the camera operator has nothing (no subject) to gauge his pan speed,
it all turns to jitter pans before and after the ducks.

But lovely video nonetheless, stunning in fact.
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Jim DeLuca

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 4:49 pm

This jitter does seem to be more extreme than I'm use to when I've used heavier cameras with an O'conner head. I'm wondering if the majority of this problem is from cheap heads? I mean I have a cheap manfrotto head with a DSLR and I've obviously had issues with it than I didn't with the Red One and an O'conner. Although I've scene this problem with heavier camera's and heads, it just seems so much worse. Especially in these example videos
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Marcel Beck

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 4:52 pm

I'd never budget down on a cheap head, it may save you takes after takes. I have a Manfrotto 504HD head that I currently use at its limit when the full kit is rigged so balancing is the only issue.

I usual move at "walking" speed to track my actors, sometimes it gets worse with linear objects in the foreground.

Ultimately its how hard you jerk to get your pan
Marcel Beck
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Marcel Beck wrote:I'd never budget down on a cheap head, it may save you takes after takes. I have a Manfrotto 504HD head that I currently use at its limit when the full kit is rigged so balancing is the only issue.

I usual move at "walking" speed to track my actors, sometimes it gets worse with linear objects in the foreground.

Ultimately its how hard you jerk to get your pan


Ease in, ease out.
The 504HD will feel like bad brakes on a 57 Chevy, after you have tried a relatively new O'Connor head, it has Anti-Lock disc brakes all around. :shock:
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Here is some old posts about jitter/pan and what not, No definitive answers, but a good read anyway
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/991799
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/24/920699
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/903773
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:08 pm

As mentioned before, I have encountered the issue as well. I shot my last project at 25fps and there are two pans in particular which have some jerky panning, at 1:39mins and 3:22mins. I wouldn't really consider them to be very fast pans, at least not in comparison to the demo videos posted here. The footage was shot at 180 degree shutter angle. Seems like the 7 second rule doesn't really work out.

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Tom

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:21 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:As mentioned before, I have encountered the issue as well. I shot my last project at 25fps and there are two pans in particular which have some jerky panning, at 1:39mins and 3:22mins. I wouldn't really consider them to be very fast pans, at least not in comparison to the demo videos posted here. The footage was shot at 180 degree shutter angle. Seems like the 7 second rule doesn't really work out.




Looks perfectly normal to me.....
Tom Majerski
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:33 pm

Tom wrote:Looks perfectly normal to me.....


They are quite slow pans, but for example in the first one, if you look at the broken bed in the foreground, you don't notice the judder much. If you look at the windows (foreground on the right and background on the right), there's definitely more judder than I would expect. Same with the windows in the other pan shot.
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Peter Östlund

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:37 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:As mentioned before, I have encountered the issue as well. I shot my last project at 25fps and there are two pans in particular which have some jerky panning, at 1:39mins and 3:22mins. I wouldn't really consider them to be very fast pans, at least not in comparison to the demo videos posted here. The footage was shot at 180 degree shutter angle. Seems like the 7 second rule doesn't really work out.




I think it is well shot and I don't see any jerkyness or problems. Good work?
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 7:58 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:
Tom wrote:Looks perfectly normal to me.....


They are quite slow pans, but for example in the first one, if you look at the broken bed in the foreground, you don't notice the judder much. If you look at the windows (foreground on the right and background on the right), there's definitely more judder than I would expect. Same with the windows in the other pan shot.


Exactly, when the eye is distracted it is less noticeable,
I think someone mentioned this in an earlier post,That panning/following a moving object, the jitter is far less noticeable.
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FredP

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 8:12 pm

One more thing to look out for is shooting at 24 and then importing into a project that's is set to 23.98. This is guaranteed to make playback of moving footage look terrible. It's easy to think that 23.98 and 24 are the same, but they're not. Since there is no such thing as a partial frame, the computer will be forced to show some frames more than once, or skip some to maintain sync between the two rates. I have seen people go mad wondering why things look jerky, only to discover a discrepancy between the footage frame rate and the project frame rate.

As for the BMCC, no, it doesn't introduce motion problems during pans. 24P looks the way it does whether digital or 35mm film. When I used to shoot with Panavision film cameras, strobing was a potential issue that sometimes showed up still does with digital. Also, nothing shows flaws in an operator's skills like a slow pan across a static scene. There is nothing to hide your inconsistency. There's a reason camera operator is typically a separate, full time job on professional film crews.

If you don't like the smoothness of your pans, shooting with a Red or Alexa will look the same. The only advantage they have will be more mass, which will smooth your pans a bit.
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Soeren Mueller

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 9:14 pm

Hm Christian, I can't see any problem with the two pans you mentioned either. The look perfectly fine to me... ?!
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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 9:27 pm

Guess what? I decided to turn "dynamic switching" of the graphics cards back on in OSX. The jittery playback only happens when the dedicated graphics card is switched on, not when the integrated one is activated. Makes total sense for integrated graphics to perform better on a Retina display MacBook Pro... :| :roll:
Christian Schmeer - DP / Colourist
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostMon Mar 18, 2013 10:00 pm

Christian Schmeer wrote:Guess what? I decided to turn "dynamic switching" of the graphics cards back on in OSX. The jittery playback only happens when the dedicated graphics card is switched on, not when the integrated one is activated. Makes total sense for integrated graphics to perform better on a Retina display MacBook Pro... :| :roll:

Interesting, I just changed my video card settings, went to your video link to check it out and it's gone, lol, oh well.
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Yavor Dimitrov

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostTue Mar 19, 2013 6:03 am

FredP wrote:One more thing to look out for is shooting at 24 and then importing into a project that's is set to 23.98. This is guaranteed to make playback of moving footage look terrible. It's easy to think that 23.98 and 24 are the same, but they're not. Since there is no such thing as a partial frame, the computer will be forced to show some frames more than once, or skip some to maintain sync between the two rates. I have seen people go mad wondering why things look jerky, only to discover a discrepancy between the footage frame rate and the project frame rate.

As for the BMCC, no, it doesn't introduce motion problems during pans. 24P looks the way it does whether digital or 35mm film. When I used to shoot with Panavision film cameras, strobing was a potential issue that sometimes showed up still does with digital. Also, nothing shows flaws in an operator's skills like a slow pan across a static scene. There is nothing to hide your inconsistency. There's a reason camera operator is typically a separate, full time job on professional film crews.

If you don't like the smoothness of your pans, shooting with a Red or Alexa will look the same. The only advantage they have will be more mass, which will smooth your pans a bit.


It is an interesting observation. I have read a few people on this post say Alexa and RED will look the same. However, I received some contradictory opinions for that observation from a DP friend of mine who uses RED Scarlett on a regular basis. When I experienced this juddering phenomenon, I contacted him and asked him to have a go and tell me if it's just me or if the camera does in fact introduce a little more judder than normal. He tried it out for a little while and commented that comparing the BMCC to the RED Scarlett on the same settings, the Scarlett produced a noticeably smoother pan. He was in fact surprised at how much judder there was in comparison.

I guess there are many factors to consider. At the end of the day with 25p, you will always have judder but it looks like the amount of it depends on the camera, your technique and style you want.
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Cam Macduff

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostTue Jun 11, 2013 2:02 am

I have a similar problem, but am not sure if it's how I'm rendering or how I've panned my camera.
3 separate pans, all look pretty good in FCPX, but on export, they all look juddery.
Anyone else had this? One of my pans sloooow so can't understand why it's juddering after export.
Frame rate unchanged @ 25p. Only viewing on my iMac and Dell monitors, but am only delivering these for web viewing.
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Michael Borkowski

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostTue Jun 11, 2013 3:47 am

Hi This is perfectly normal due to any camera with progressive scanning like the bmcc
However you can minimize this by making sure you have 1]..... shutter speed at 180 degree
2].....panning with good tripod and a little more slowly 3]....... also track pan a person walking or object
at the same speed will virtually take most of the judder away on that tracked object.
hope this helps

PS : also 24 or 23.976 fps can yield a little less judder than 25 fps ..on a 50/60hz monitor
29.97 is the smoothest out of the prog scans
Cheers
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Darryl Gregory

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostTue Jun 11, 2013 4:00 am

Since there are so many variables, and user errors I wanted to inform you of the obvious first
Are you shooting at the correct frame rate and shutter angle?, Is your NLE timeline correct for your footage?
here is the best Answer I could find, I hope it helps.
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/59/859904#859929
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Cam Macduff

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostTue Jun 11, 2013 4:30 am

Indeed, shutter 180º, 25p, Raw.
One shot is of two people walking past. Used a shoulder rig. It's probably the speed of the pan.
Thought it was slow enough, but obviously not.
The people in the shot appear just fine, but the background stutters.

FCPX must be doing some frame blending, or lowering of the fps as it just doesn't appear to stutter in the viewer. As soon as I export it, stutter happens.

However on the others, they're definitely slow enough to avoid motion stutter, so I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong with the encode for Vimeo and YouTube.
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Dmitry Kitsov

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostWed Jun 12, 2013 6:18 pm

Not sure what's your workflow. Couple of things to check for: how does it interpret the footage by default (there is a setting), does your timeline fps matches source fps/matches output fps. Is there by any chance of inadvertently turning on fields in the output? How do yu get raw footage in the fcpx?
Cam Macduff wrote:Indeed, shutter 180º, 25p, Raw.
One shot is of two people walking past. Used a shoulder rig. It's probably the speed of the pan.
Thought it was slow enough, but obviously not.
The people in the shot appear just fine, but the background stutters.

FCPX must be doing some frame blending, or lowering of the fps as it just doesn't appear to stutter in the viewer. As soon as I export it, stutter happens.

However on the others, they're definitely slow enough to avoid motion stutter, so I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong with the encode for Vimeo and YouTube.
Dmitry Kitsov
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Cam Macduff

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostWed Jun 12, 2013 11:13 pm

Workflow: Raw into Resolve 9, proxies out to FCXP for editing, XML back out to Resolve, grade, export and back into FCXP, export out to various formats.
Project and footage all 1080p 25frames per.

The client has gone and made public an early beta edit (Grrr), so take a look at 51 sec's shoulder pan, and 4:21 tripod pan. These two shots are both on the BMCC, but the entire video is a 60/40 mix of a 5D MrkII & the BMCC.

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Christian Schmeer

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostThu Jun 13, 2013 12:08 am

I do still perceive the 24fps and 25fps footage from the BMCC as more juttery than 5D footage. I'm wondering if it's just the increased detail and sharpness on the BMCC just brings it out more?
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Hans Engstrom

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostThu Jun 13, 2013 11:03 am

Christian Schmeer wrote:I do still perceive the 24fps and 25fps footage from the BMCC as more juttery than 5D footage. I'm wondering if it's just the increased detail and sharpness on the BMCC just brings it out more?


Increased sharpness can bring it more out. Watched some of the videos in this thread and the pans are to fast and in some cases the shutter does not look like it´s 180. If you are in the edit suite and have a pan that´s to quick and/or you just want to make it a little smother add some motion blur to simulate the use of a greater shutter angle.
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Robert Bentley

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 7:47 pm

I watched a lot of BMCC videos and many of them were jerky or jumpy to me. To the point that I felt the footage was absolutely unwatchable. It really turned me off from the camera. Then I realized that all the 1280x720 BMMC uploads looked great.

Check out this video for example. Click download and you'll see it says HD .MP4 file 1280x534


The footage plays very smooth with pans and everything. Looks very cinematic. So apparently it's just the 1920x1080p stuff that was causing me the problems. I recently upgrading my graphics card to a GTX Titan and tried it on a new computer and all the jerky/panning problems went away. You can then see how great the camera is.

What I'm noticing is a bit of flashing now though, which leads me to believe my super cheap HDTV can't properly handle it. So if you have problems with panning/jerky footage, you might try upgrading your graphics card. If you get other issues, it could be your monitor needs a faster refresh rate.

There was one video out of 10 or so that I downloaded that still was very jerky after viewing on a better graphics card and that was because he used different shooting settings, it was shutter/frame rate related.
Last edited by Robert Bentley on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Bentley

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Re: Jerky Panning

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 7:49 pm

The real test is to export out to 1280x720 and see if you still have those problems. If they go away, it's not the footage, it's your graphics card or monitor not being able to handle it at 1920x1080p.
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