Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

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James David

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Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostFri May 18, 2018 2:49 pm

Hi guys,

Can't find anything on this topic

I am trying to get a picture out of the BMMCC to certain HDMI screens such as my PC monitor and even smaller screens and I can't get anything.

Works on my SmallHD monitor and a Large 40" TV LCD screen but not on others that I've tried, has anyone figured out why this is-

Is it something to do with the driver of the particular screen or is the Micro Cinema HDMI problematic?

thanks
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostFri May 18, 2018 4:00 pm

The Micro camera’s HDMI output is a 1080p, 4.2.2, Video signal at the same frame rate selected for recording. So if you have selected 1080p50/59.94 (60): then the HDMI will output 1080p50/59.94 and the monitor you are using must be able to support the higher frame rate, which not all monitors will. Also HDMI cable length is restricted to 15-feet, a longer run may also cause issues.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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James David

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostFri May 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Thanks for this,

Camera is on 24FPS.

I guess i'm trying to find if the problem, lies on the Camera HDMI out OR monitor.

I have tried different cable and the same working cable with the "non-working" monitors and it doesn't seem to be a cable problem.

I have also owned two different Cinema cameras an both did not work on the same monitor.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostFri May 18, 2018 6:09 pm

Sounds like a Monitor issue to me. A lot of early LCD digital monitors onlymsupoort 1080i or 720p, not full 1080p, that may be the issue, as rh camera does work with the VA or Atomos display, so it is not the camera, other than itmouputs a true 1080p24 to 60 fps signal, not interlaced. You can get BM’s new Micro UP/Down Cross Converter which will take the Micro’s 1080p24 signal and convert itmt9ma 1080i59.94 signal the non working monitor may recognize and display.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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James David

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostSat May 19, 2018 3:12 pm

Yea wouldn't mean the problem is still on both sides,

Micro is not 100% with every screen, and the screens "driver" board is also not compatiable with every HDMI device.

Why I put the fault more on the micro however is becuase everyscreen I have tried it on are commerically made and meant to work (in theory) on all soruces from manufzcturers like toshiba and LG.


It would be really good if the blackmagics engineers could shed some light on where exactly the problem lies. Cheers
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostSat May 19, 2018 7:11 pm

Not all consumer TV monitors are created equal. All BM Cinema cameras, including the Micro have been progressive output only from day one. The Micro Cinema camera is not a consumer piece of equipment and is not required or designed to be compatible with all consumer monitors. ;)
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Uli Plank

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostSat May 19, 2018 10:07 pm

While this may be the source of the problem, it's not true for all BM cameras. The first BMCC could be forced into PsF, by either switching on or off the overlays (has been a while that I used one).
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James David

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostTue May 22, 2018 1:59 pm

Just tried it with another new monitor.

I believe that minors along the lines of Computer inputs VS those used for TV watching is where the difference is.

The computer types are routinely not recognizing the Micros's HDMI Input.

I would really like to figure out what the actual problem is to see if to see if it could be solved. simply Techsperts please chime in if you're watching.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 1:03 am

Computer monitors expect an RGB color space signal. Video cameras, like the BM Micro output a YUV color space signal, which will not work on a computer monitor.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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James David

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 11:00 am

OK, that's interesting seems to be where the problem lies, thanks for this Denny! and for anyone else searching this up -

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9854
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Computer monitors expect an RGB color space signal. Video cameras, like the BM Micro output a YUV color space signal, which will not work on a computer monitor.
Cheers


It won't work on some, but it will work on others and should work on TVs. There is some fundamental issue with HDMI signal out of BM devices.
Have you ever seen any other HDMI based device having so many issue as BM?
I've never seen issue with AJA and its HDMI output and I done lot of R&D work which involved fancy setups/monitors/TVs. I only seen 1 issue with HDMI on one of the Samsung first UHD TV, which was fixed with firmware update.

I'm not sure, but there may be a case where 8bit RGB mode should work on every device with certified HDMI port as a "safety" mode.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 7:27 pm

True Andrew, and the HDMI outs on the new Mini Converters can be set to RGB, but not the Cinema cameras, they and the other BM cameras are YUV only, which is the standard color space setting for Pro Video Cameras. Most pro video cameras lack an HDMI and use SDI instead. Consumer cameras often work with both.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 10:03 pm

I see some missconception that YUV=PRO.
YUV=compromise, how to save bandwidth (used a lot on SDI). SDI is more robust (connection, cables, data pipe, etc.), so this is why it's used in pro equipment.
High-end is actually RGB monitoring as any signal when it hits monitor will be converted to RGB anyway. YUV is just a middle man to save bits during data transmission and ideally should be avoided.
It's good for more compressed formats though.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Thu May 24, 2018 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Micro Cinema HDMI output consistency?

PostWed May 23, 2018 11:49 pm

Ah, thanks Andrew. I have always seen most digital cameras setup with YUV, and not RGB. Even analog component was based on Chroma/YPbPr, and not RGB, which as you pointed out is not compressed, and is a computer system based video standard, due to its high bandwidth.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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