Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

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mazreds

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Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Aug 30, 2018 11:11 am

Hi guys.

Which Metabones (or other brand) adapter should I use to attach Canon EF lenses (e.g. EOS 5D Mark II ones) to a Pocket Cinema Camera 4K, possibly supporting autofocus ?

Thanks in advance
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rick.lang

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Aug 30, 2018 12:53 pm

Look at the Metabones Ultra (0.71x) or the XL (0.64x) as both will be able to take EF format lenses. If you need something right away, those are your selections.

If you’re in no rush, there may be stronger focal reducers coming, but there have been no announcements. I would recommend waiting to see what IBC 2018 might bring to the table as it is possible there will be either a new 0.58x or even a reworked 0.5x in development for full mFT cameras.

Given the sensor on the BMPCC4K (and the Panasonic GH5S) is actually larger than mFT (18.96mm versus 17.3mm horizontal), a 0.5x SpeedBooster may require a lens with an image circle slightly larger than needed for a 36x24mm sensor. Many lenses are available that will work well though as the manufacturers designed lenses that may be specified as EF or ‘full frame’ but actually cover a larger area.


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mazreds

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Aug 30, 2018 1:48 pm

Thank you so much, Rick. A very detailed answer !!!
We are quite in a rush, so probably we will choose the Metabones Ultra (0.71x) or the XL (0.64x).

Thank you again.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Aug 30, 2018 4:52 pm

The XL is for full frame (24x36mm) lenses, and the Ultra is for both FF and APS-C lenses.
Cheers.
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Aug 30, 2018 6:09 pm

rick.lang wrote:even a reworked 0.5x

Let's hope so :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Ryan Payne

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 6:10 am

Is a 0.5 reduction even physically possible? I wouldn't think so as it's highly dependant on the sensor size? You can cram in 0.5 to the tiny s16 pocket sensor but the area will always be bigger than that with the pocket 4k and physically impossible because of it?
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 7:47 am

Ryan Payne wrote:Is a 0.5 reduction even physically possible? I wouldn't think so as it's highly dependant on the sensor size? You can cram in 0.5 to the tiny s16 pocket sensor but the area will always be bigger than that with the pocket 4k and physically impossible because of it?

Brian Caldwell, designer of Metabones optics, theorized it could be possible to adapt his 0.5x design for Nikon G to Pentax Q. Low-light enthusiasts hope he is right :D
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rick.lang

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 11:38 am

I had thought the slightly larger sensor meant your lenses will need to cover a little more than 135 film full frame. The 0.5x with a traditional 17.3mm sensor still keeps your apparent sense size within the full frame spec. But...

135 film requires a minimum image circle of 43.3mm.

With the 0.5x focal reducer, the conventional mFT sensor is about a 40mm diagonal if you are shooting in a 16:9 aspect ratio and 43.5mm if you are shooting with a 4:3 aspect ratio. Close enough likely to work.

With the sensor in the BMPCC4K, 18.96x10mm, the sensor diagonal is slightly less than 43mm due to use of the 1.896:1 aspect ratio for DCI 4K. So the 0.5x can work for this camera with any EF coverage lens that can tolerate the focal reducer at the back end.


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Adam Silver

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 10:39 pm

Let me ask essentially the same question from a different point of view. For my lens, the Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens, which Metabones Speedbooster should I use to give me a similar field of view to using that same lens on my UMP?
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 11:26 pm

Put a 35mm lens on your UM Pro, then put the same lens on the Ultra Metabones Speed Booster (0.71), and that 35mm will give the same “normal” angle of view on the Pocket 4K, or as close as you are going to get,with what is available now. A 25mm is a 45-degree AOV on a MFT (Pocket 4K) sensor and 35mm is a 45-degree AOV lens on S35 (UM4.6 in 4K window). Put a 35mm lens on the Ultra SB, 35x0.71=25. ;)
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Adam Silver

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostThu Sep 06, 2018 1:36 am

Thanks Denny!
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Peter Benson

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 12:42 am

Denny Smith wrote:Put a 35mm lens on your UM Pro, then put the same lens on the Ultra Metabones Speed Booster (0.71), and that 35mm will give the same “normal” angle of view on the Pocket 4K, or as close as you are going to get,with what is available now. A 25mm is a 45-degree AOV on a MFT (Pocket 4K) sensor and 35mm is a 45-degree AOV lens on S35 (UM4.6 in 4K window). Put a 35mm lens on the Ultra SB, 35x0.71=25. ;)
Cheers
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 1:18 am

Thanks, that is what I was trying to achieve.
Adam, you are welcome, glad to help.
Cheers
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Benny Johnen

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 11:18 am

The Viltrox EF-M2 might be an interesting alternative to the Metabones Ultra. Haven't used one myself, but it has many positive reviews online and maybe someone here has experience using it.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 4:08 pm

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread too much but…

Why are people so eager to add more glass and potential chromatic imperfections to their lenses? What is wrong with the m4/3 sensor size (which in this case appears to actually be slightly larger than the one in the GH5 or the BMCC 2.5k?

I shot with both of the above cameras and has no issue getting wide enough angles and shallow depth of field. In addition, the new Pocket seems to have really great high-ISO capabilities so extra light gain to the sensor is not really an issue.

I also own a 5D3, and have shot plenty of footage with it (and Magic Lantern raw), so I know and understand the look/feel of a FF sensor…and I still find the m4/3 size to be a very good alternative.

So I have to ask again, why spend $650 on a Speedbooster as opposed to one which costs 1/5 that simply converts the mount size and electronic connection?
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 4:17 pm

Because I have very expensive EF lenses that get way too cropped when I use them on this camera because they were bought with a 1x or 1.5x crop in mind.
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 4:28 pm

The Speed Booster is mostly useful if you want to keep a shallow depth of filed at a given subject distance, or match the angle of view to a S35 camera using the same focal length lens. On the original,Pocket, with its small sensor and on the BMCC, getting an expanded AOV on lenses that were already on hand was a big advantage.

On the new MFT version, not so much, and yes the sensor is half again bigger than the BMCC, and wider than the GH4/5 to get a true 16:9 or open gate 17:9 (4K) angle of view without cropping the sensor, as the GH4/5 have to, so again their video 16:9 area is between the BMCC and a full 4/3 16:9 full sensor, the current MFT Speed Booster XL was designed to make up for,the sensor crop on the GH4/5, while the original 0.71 on the XL is for full size MFT sensors, which were originally used in the GH2/3 and AF100.

It is nice to have choices. Sometimes adding a expanded AOV Speed Booster gets you the perspective you want, using a particular lens. For example, I have a great Zeiss ZF 28mm f/2.0, which was made for 135mm photography, it has the ability to add extra 3D snap to an image, and create more separation from foreground subject to background, which increases the illusion of 3D in a 2D image.

Since the 28mm was a WA on 135, at 28mm it is a nice normal AOV lens on the MFT sensor, but you loose some of the perspective effect of WA. Add a Speed Booster, and you are using more of the lenses original projected image circle, and have a WA perspective once again with a 19mm (with the XL 0.68) or a classic 20mm with the Ultra (0.71). If a 0.52 Speed Booster is developed for the new Pocket 4K, you will get the original (135mm gate size) WA perspective back with a 14.5mm AOV (same AOV as 28 on FF) on the new MFT sensor.

So it all boils down to choices, and the image you are trying to create. It is grand to have these choices available. When the first Pocket camera was released, the choices were a lot less... ;)
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 7:59 pm

I agree, choices are good. My main point is that I see some people in these and other forums who seem to be under the impression that they will HAVE to have the Speedbooster or else the camera is unusable, and I think it's important that they know that this sensor is perfectly capable of delivering shallow depth of field and wide angles without the need of a $650 add-on.
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 08, 2018 9:00 pm

Agreed, the selection of excellent native MFT lenses, bits Cine style manual and auto is much better than it was five years ago when the original Pocket came out.

The only reason to get a SB, is to use larger format lenses you may already have or especially like to use.
Otherwise, just get good MFT lenses, like the Veydra Mini Primes, SLR Hyperprimes, Panasonic Leica Primes and 12-60 Zoom, or OLympus Pro Series Primes and Tokina Cine zooms.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jerrygladh

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 3:57 pm

Just worked with the ursas until now and decided for the Pocket 4k and Ronin-S for an upcoming job.
Loaded with Canon L glass and i think I will be wide enough with the EF 14mm 2.8 eq 28mm if get it right?
Any advice on a good adapter for the combo? The Speedboosters seems like overkill for me.
Would be good to be able to mount APS-C to.

Best regards

Jerry
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 1:07 am

Benny Johnen wrote:The Viltrox EF-M2 might be an interesting alternative to the Metabones Ultra. Haven't used one myself, but it has many positive reviews online and maybe someone here has experience using it.


I just got my first BM camera, a used BMPCC, to see if I want to go with this style or get a mixed still and video with the Fuji X-T3. I have the Viltrox EF-M2 and found it odd that I cannot focus past about 8 feet with a Canon 16-35 f/2.8 II. Seems to focus to infinity past 24mm or so.

This is my first time playing with MFT mounts. I am using an M42 and Nikon F to Canon EF adaptor then through the Viltrox. I have been pretty happy with the optics, just not sure about the focusing issues.

I have a native MFT zoom on the way to eliminate the lens issues as I learn. But the $130 for the Viltrox seems like a really good value. I could get the camera to attempt to focus with the remove and reattach while powered trick. Although it didn't seem to move focus at all (just showed the square.)

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I agree, choices are good. My main point is that I see some people in these and other forums who seem to be under the impression that they will HAVE to have the Speedbooster or else the camera is unusable, and I think it's important that they know that this sensor is perfectly capable of delivering shallow depth of field and wide angles without the need of a $650 add-on.


This is why I went for the $130 version. To me, it makes sense to shoot with MFT lenses for simplicity. What you get with speedbooster is the ability to use some of the glass available for great features of it. Just like when I shot AF-D glass for Nikon with new bodies, because I loved the contrast rendering. Another example is the crazy Helios bokeh that really isn't visible unless you get the full lens frame, so a speedbooster is needed.
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 6:27 am

You might want to take up that problem with Viltrox. There may be an adjustment on the EF-M2 adapter.


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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 7:55 am

You have to adjust the infinity focus. It's very simple, here's a really bro-ey guy explaining it:


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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 10:21 am

So the XL version is closer to the original BMPCC speedbooster as that's 0.58x, and the XL is 0.64x?

I used to use APS-C lenses on the BMPCC and it seemed to be fine (although there might have been some blur / vignetting when the lenses are at they're smallest focal length), would I be able to do the same with the XL, or would the ULTRA be better to be safe?

Thanks.
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rick.lang

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 1:46 pm

William, you can’t assume you can use any lens designed for APS-C coverage on the full sensor of the BMPCC4K. You need to know the image circle of the specific lens.

When lens manufacturers refer to the suitability of their lenses for a stills camera, they often only consider the typical sensor size of three cameras:
A) 135 film or ‘full frame’ lenses which usually have an image circle greater than 43.3mm, ‘crop factor’ 1.0; such as Canon EF ir Nikon FX
B) APS-C Canon or Nikon DX, crops 1.6x or 1.53x
C) mFT, horizontal crop 2.08x; BMPCC4K 1.9x (or 2.02x for UHD).

These broad generalizations of lenses designed for these three options make sense when you think about the traditionally limited choices available for stills photography—now there are more sensor choices smaller than mFT.

But they’re not helpful when considering cinematography which has used different traditional ‘sensors’ such as Super 35 or Academy 35 and Super 16. There are about a hundred different sensor sizes for cinema cameras going back well over a hundred years of shooting film with some modern cinema cameras shooting with much larger sensors than these three.

The BMPCC was quite a small sensor in a cinema camera when introduced in 2013. With a horizontal crop of 2.88x. The Metabones SpeedBooster for BMPCC had a focal reducer factor of 0.58x and was designed to use APS-C lenses. 0.58x2.88x = 1.67x.

So APS-C lenses could work with the Pocket and SpeedBooster as long as the rest of the lens didn’t project into the glass of the SpeedBooster (which eliminates some lenses but others were fine with a small modification to the rear housing). At least it was a simple solution and you didn’t have to think about the actual image circle of the APS-C lens.

Similarly, the 0.64x SpeedBooster for BMCC could use Super 35 lenses. 0.64x2.28x = 1.46x and that’s a bit smaller than Super 35 so all good. Some APS-C stills lenses actually had image circled large enough to cover Super 35 so it was possible to use them with the SpeedBooster; an example is the very good Rokinon 16mm. Both the 16mm and 10mm are sold as APS-C lenses. But the image circle of the 16mm just covers Super 35 whereas the 10mm image circle is truly limited for use on APS-C sensors only.

Now getting to the BMPCC4K with its non-traditional width of 18.96mm versus the standard mFT 17.3mm, the math is potentially trickier. But the active sensor area of the BMPCC4K only has a height of 10mm so the diagonal of the sensor is very close to a traditional mFT diagonal. To be safe, I still figure with the crop factor of the sensor as 1.9x but calling it 2x is fine too as all lenses designed for mFT cameras will cover the BMPCC4K.

Now when you want to add a SpeedBooster, your options are harder to predict. On paper the 0.64x SpeedBooster XL excludes all APS-C lenses. 0.64x1.9x = 1.22x. Most lenses designed for Super 35 will vignette badly. So XL requires you use ‘full frame’ 135 film lenses on the BMPCC4K.

The SpeedBooster Ultra 0.71x may or may not work subject to the actual image circle of the lens. 0.71x1.9x = 1.35x. 0.71x2x = 1.42x. I expect all Super 35 lenses may cover this. APS-H stills lenses will too. But APS-C lens will not work. All ‘full frame’ lenses will work.

A long post, but I thought you might want a broader understanding. Hopefully Denny with chime in with the short answer!
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 3:49 pm

Nice Rick, but the short answer, based on user experience with the GH5/s which has a similar sized sensor in 17:9 DCS, APS-C WA lenses (10-25mm) will vignette when using the 0.64 Speed Booster. If you have a collection of APS-C lenses, get the 0.71 SB. The Sigma 18-35 vignettes with the X0.64 SB on the GH5/s from 18mm to 25mm, in 16:9 it vignettes from 18mm to around 20mm. ;)
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 4:02 pm

Any recommendations for less expensive "dumb" adapters? Most of my lenses are vintage manual focus lenses so it doesn't really make sense to buy something with electronics. Also, I don't need/want corrective FOV lenses in the adapter.

Mostly, I would like an EF to M4/3 adapter that feels solid and locks the lens in without feeling loose.
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 4:22 pm

Amazing, thanks so much Rick and Denny. Good to know the background with all this, I did not know.

OK so the Ultra is the way to go, based on the GH5, using something like a Sigma 18-35 (which I am).

Thanks again, really helpful! :)
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 5:14 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Any recommendations for less expensive "dumb" adapters? Most of my lenses are vintage manual focus lenses so it doesn't really make sense to buy something with electronics. Also, I don't need/want corrective FOV lenses in the adapter.

Mostly, I would like an EF to M4/3 adapter that feels solid and locks the lens in without feeling loose.


Have a look for Novoflex adapters:

https://www.enjoyyourcamera.com/Objekti ... :9389.html

They're pricey but worth the money.
https://www.gernemehrfilm.de/
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 5:53 pm

William and Denny, thanks for the comments. When I was writing that post, I was thinking of fixed focal lengths for lenses. The zooms bring another dimension to the table as Denny pointed out since the entire zoom range may not work, but a portion of the range may be fine. And being familiar with commentary from GH5S shooters is a good way to learn how a given zoom will behave with SpeedBoosters.


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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 7:46 pm

Kays, I second the Novoflex, I have the Nikon to MFT, great kit. Also, Meatabones makes a nice (non Speed Booster) dumb EF to MFT adapter, or st least they did, also very good. Look for used models of both on eBay for some bargains.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 12:49 am

Thank you, I'll look into the Novoflex adapter.
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostTue Oct 02, 2018 1:23 pm

Beside all the math behind the crop-factor, is it dangerous to mount the BMPCC-speedbooster to the new pocket 4k? Especially for the window sensor mode it could be interesting. I am a bit discouraged by the warning on the Metabones website. Is there something that could damage the camera?
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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostTue Oct 02, 2018 5:34 pm

The only issue would be if the rear lens element of the BMPCC Speed Booster touched or made contact with the sensor cover glass, which is highly unlikely. The warning is more towards cameras like the GH5, which have less clearances due to the mechanical shutter in theses cameras.
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rick.lang

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Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostTue Oct 02, 2018 7:52 pm

The BMPCC SpeedBooster will not work with the BMPCC4K. It will vignette severely. The image circle it creates was designed specifically to take advantage of the fairly small size of the original HD sensor. The problem isn’t just the image circle but the throat of the exit pupil is too narrow to work on larger sensors. I think that is the real issue.

The horizontal crop of the BMPCC is 2.88x. The crop of the BMPCC4K open gate is 1.9x. The crop of the BMPCC4K recording HD is 4.05x. So that would work if you already have one, but not useful for 4K/UHD.

Hopefully if I’m wrong Brian Caldwell will correct me!

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Re: Adapter for Pocket Cinema Camera 4K and Canon EF lenses

PostTue Oct 02, 2018 8:40 pm

Rick correct, the BMPCC SB will vignette thenfull sesnor, but the question was to use the original BMPCC Speed Booster on the new Pocket when using the HD window, which is smaller than the original S16 sensor width. His cheers ncern was rhr Metabones warning about using this SB on GH4/5 Cameras, physically causing damage to the camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions

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