Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

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bjornzitting

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Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostFri Aug 31, 2018 3:05 pm

Is the Smartview 4k suitable as a small/'cheap' grading monitor?
Connected to a BMD SDI 'card'
Anyone using it that way?

What is missing in your opinion?
Björn
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rick.lang

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 2:40 am

It’s probably not too bad a choice. I don’t have one so I’m just going by comments I’ve heard. It’s primary purpose though is just a monitor to display the images, you’re missing a lot of the extra features you may want to use on a conventional grading monitor, such as False Colour and waveforms and so on.


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Marc Wielage

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 7:44 am

bjornzitting wrote:Is the Smartview 4k suitable as a small/'cheap' grading monitor?

No, I think that's a bad idea.

You need a larger display with the ability to calibrate it to a known standard (like Rec709).
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostSat Sep 01, 2018 8:37 am

backlight of the screen itself is very poor.. Also there is quite a delay in the processor of the screen. several frames..
Especially with a live camera on the screen you can see there is a delay..

But you are able to upload LUT's in it..
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bjornzitting

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 6:01 pm

Thank you for informative answers!

Reason for my question - apart from lower cost than 'the absolute best' which is often very/too expensive :)

A smaller size grading monitor placed close to me/same distance as timeline monitor with a cheap computer monitor above it only showing scopes I believe is a good setup ergonomically for grading
Easier to shift eyes up/down to same distance than 'try to follow a tennis match' sideways

As I see it with resolve a lot of time is spent outside the color/grading mode - you need a wide monitor or two monitors for timeline editing etc, glancing to the grading monitor sometimes

When grading you want to navigate sometimes on those monitors, but ideally (with a control panel) you concentrate on the grading monitor and the scopes and navigate by buttons - occasional mouse/pen on the other monitor(s)

A too big grading monitor needs to be further away if placed between two resolve monitors, if beside them, maybe a circular table is required which might create environmental issues in the room?
Different distance is a problem for me cause I can't refocus my eyes (cataract operation), instead I have to shift glasses - everyday progressive glasses don't work with bigger monitors, give you neck pain

Does the above make sense?

@Marc you meant the grading monitor should be bigger (I assume for 4k), can you explain why/how big/how far away?

I think most people with 4k TV/4k source sit too far away to see the full resolution they paid for :)
On the other hand this hides limitations in upscaled source

In an editing/grading setup you of course can lean forward when needed if screen has the resolution to check details
Isn't grading above 'pixel peeping' most of the time anyway?

@Daniel, do you think LUT support is enough, if chosen ambient light complements the low backlight level and you have the patience to wait a few frames? :)

Right now in my setup the feed is a decklink mini monitor 4k on a linux machine with Resolve Studio to a Video Assist 4k (7 inch) via SDI then via HDMI to an older Samsung HD TV on the wall above monitors
Roll back on the chair to just watch on the bigger screen
Of course none of them are properly calibrated, but close :)

The main monitor is an Eizo 4k fed from a Nvidia card with it's problems :)
Björn
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 6:07 pm

You main monitor should be Eizo fed from BM HDMI. Calibrate it and you will have decent preview.
SmartView 4k panel is simply poor. You should forget about it. You can put 10 LUTs and you won't fix it :D

For UHD 30inch is mimum and you have to seat next to it. SmartView 4k is 15inch panel, so this is useless for for judging UHD, regardless how close you seat. All what it's good for is to see that there is some picture. This is exactly what is was made for.
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bjornzitting

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Hi Andrew
You are really quick!
Thank you for the advice - I understand Smartview is more for 'control room' on a TV station, will drop the idea...

I have the Eizo also as a second monitor to a iMac 5k for still images which is nice

Seen your advice earlier on using Eizo for grading and agree on those arguments, also read discussions why a properly profiled monitor for high-end still photos via OS/graphic card 'should' deliver same high quality for moving image - and arguments why it can't unless fed from a BMD hardware :)

So Andrew, is your advice to use the Eizo via my Nvidia 1080ti on linux as 'the' monitor for Resolve or via the decklink mini monitor 4k only as a dedicated grading monitor complemented by ordinary computer monitor?

Thank you all for the high quality on this forum!
Björn
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 05, 2018 10:09 pm

If you have BM card use it. Resolve is not ready for good GUI preview.
With BM it's way easier and you get full screen video feed to your calibrated monitor. Keep GUI on separate monitor.
If you had eg. Assimilate Scratch I would probably advise opposite.
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MishaEngel

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 7:18 pm

Perfect? Specially HDR at 350nits :D (is that all what this monitor can actually do?)
By calling it HDR BenQ actually is loosing respect as a company at leats in my eyes. It's not cheap monitor at the end. If you try to sell monitor to professionals why would you call it "HDR" when it barely does 350nits?
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MishaEngel

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Perfect? Specially HDR at 350nits :D (is that all what this monitor can actually do?)
By calling it HDR BenQ actually is loosing respect as a company at leats in my eyes. It's not cheap monitor at the end. If you try to sell monitor to professionals why would you call it "HDR" when it barely does 350nits?


Have you ever been in a room where color correction is done?

Those rooms are most of the time pretty dark (closed curtains and dimmed light).

Hence the adviced brightness(Oculist) is upto 100 nits FULL SCREEN (where it is around 200..300 for a HDR TV in the living room).

This panel has a max. overall brightness of 350 nits (Full Screen).
When you translate this to a HDR TV in a living room their will be TV's who can deliver (3.5x200)=700 nits FULL SCREEN, but you won't find TV delivering (3.5x300)=1050 nits FULL SCREEN.


The LG C8 55" has a max peak brightness FULL SCREEN of around 150 nits, at 25% of the screen 440 nits and at 10% of the screen 800 nits. This is one of the best OLED HDR TV's you can buy today.

Long story short, this BenQ is more than adequate for HDR color grading.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostMon Sep 17, 2018 9:52 am

You grade to 1000 nits peak in dark room for HDR, not to 350 nits. Monitor has to peak to 1000 nits at least for 10% window and this one does 350 nits, so this is the key problem. Fact it can do 350 full frame is good, but still doesn't allow you to call it HDR. It needs to do at least 700 nits etc for 10% window, otherwise it's useless for HDR work. Many Eizos (and other makers) can do 350 nits full frame and I have not seen Eizo calling them HDR. They won't as they respect their customers and don't just put "labels" (they do give optional PQ setting, but don't call monitor HDR).
Monitor has to track PQ curve properly. All settings are locked in HDR mode on this BenQ. Deltas for HDR got up to 8, so this is far from be useful for any HDR work. Contrast is rather low at 1000, so no near HDR needs. P3 is only covered in 90%, screen uniformity is rather poor. Perfect for 1100$? Hmmm, not so sure and you can forget about HDR with no adjustments and overall performance. Calling it HDR from BenQ side when targeting pro users is a bit of joke. For Rec.709 work it may be good, but 1100$ is not cheap monitor anymore.
Wait for BenQ PV271 which seems to be more decent (with "real" 1000 nits peak) and have 12G SDI input. All depends on price, but BenQ is still not Eizo.
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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 19, 2018 2:00 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Wait for BenQ PV271 which seems to be more decent (with "real" 1000 nits peak) and have 12G SDI input. All depends on price, but BenQ is still not Eizo.


Hi, I'm very interested in this topic. Would like to find a "good enough" monitor (can't do Eizo) but am trying to educate myself enough so that I make a reasonably intelligent purchase. I've got a Decklink Mini Monitor 4K on order and it will arrive this week. My computer is half-way decent for a hobbyist and with BRAW, I'm hopeful that 4K will be an ok editing experience.

But I search on "BenQ PV271" and only get a single link to a YouTube video from NAB. When I go the BenQ website, and even search that site, there's no mention at all of the PV271.

Can anyone point me to more information?

Second question: I know I'm a hobbyist so none of this really matters for my livelihood but is there a way to describe the compromise that exists with using the PV270 (QHD resolution only) with 4K source footage? Again, I don't need perfection but would like to make the smartest possible purchase.

Thanks.
Steve
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 19, 2018 12:01 pm

BenQ PV271 is coming- not available yet.

What is your budget (realistically)? Do you need UHD or HDR?
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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 19, 2018 4:22 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BenQ PV271 is coming- not available yet.

What is your budget (realistically)? Do you need UHD or HDR?


Andrew,
Thanks for replying. Budget is no more than $1300 but ideally less than that. I've looked at the Dell UP2718Q and BenQ SW271 in that range but wonder if what you get incrementally is worth the additional dollars.

I'm surprised there is NOTHING (that I can find) on the BenQ site about the PV271, if they showed it so publicly at NAB. But I guess it must not be that close to shipping.

I would like UHD and HDR capability but I know I'm not going to spend what the pros do, nor have all the capabilities.

Put another way, if a $600 monitor gets you 40% of the way there (compared to a pro solution), I don't want to spend $1300 if that only gets me 45%.

It's difficult to describe precisely. Maybe try this: Is someone stole your grading monitor and you had to buy something for $1000 or less NOW, to complete a job, what would you get?

Thanks again.
Steve
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostWed Sep 19, 2018 4:45 pm

I think I understand.
In this case your best option may be LG OLED- get the one which you can afford, even if it's last year model. This way for slightly more than 1300$ you will get something decent with UHD and HDR :) You just have to calibrate it!

Other than this you can get "affordable" monitor for 600$. Always calibrate! The more you pay the closer you get to "100%" accuracy, but those for 600$ can offer a lot of it if you talk just about Rec.709 gamut. Problem lies in details. Eizo has for example great uniformity (600$ one won't), better contrast, better blacks, less IPS glow, etc. 600$ gets you to eg 70%. The further you are towards 100%, price rises rapidly.
Look at many review websites (but good ones): prad.de, http://www.tftcentral.co.uk and there you can compare many those 600$ monitors. Key point is also good HDMI support (multiple refresh rates), maybe 10bit, maybe interlaced support (if you need it) etc.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 2:34 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I think I understand.
In this case your best option may be LG OLED- get the one which you can afford, even if it's last year model. This way for slightly more than 1300$ you will get something decent with UHD and HDR :) You just have to calibrate it!

Other than this you can get "affordable" monitor for 600$. Always calibrate! The more you pay the closer you get to "100%" accuracy, but those for 600$ can offer a lot of it if you talk just about Rec.709 gamut. All lies in details. Eizo has for example great uniformity (600$ one won't), better contrast, better blacks, less IPS glow, etc. 600% gets you to eg 70%. The further you are towards 100%, price rises rapidly.
Look at many review websites (but good ones): prad.de, http://www.tftcentral.co.uk and there you can compare many those 600$ monitors. Key point is also good HDMI support (multiple refresh rates), maybe 10bit, maybe interlaced support (if you need it) etc.


Andrew, thanks very much. The www.tftcentral.co.uk site is awesome. I will spend some time there and that will really help.

Appreciate the guidance.
Steve
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MishaEngel

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 pm

The Philips Brilliance 328P6VUBREB (328P6VU) also looks to be a nice grading monitor

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13382/philips-328p6vubreb-professional-4k-display-with-displayhdr-600-usbc-gbe

And the price is also not to bad.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostFri Sep 21, 2018 2:14 am

MishaEngel wrote:The Philips Brilliance 328P6VUBREB (328P6VU) also looks to be a nice grading monitor

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13382/philips-328p6vubreb-professional-4k-display-with-displayhdr-600-usbc-gbe

And the price is also not to bad.


Wow, looks great! At $620, I can wait until November.
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Re: Good enough grading monitor, SmartView 4k?

PostFri Sep 21, 2018 5:19 am

The Current BenQ PV270 can now be accurately calibrated with LightIllusion but I would wait for the PV271. We have used BenQ's PG2401PT successfully for several years with DaVinci as a Rec.709 4K grading monitor, run from a 12G SDI 4K Pro Decklink via an SDI to Display Port Converter where we see 10bit 4:4:4.
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