To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with Fu)

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Kristof Indeherberge

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To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with Fu)

PostTue Nov 27, 2018 8:47 am

Hi, I'm your neighbor from next door. We don't speak much, but whenever your kids throw their ball over the wall we don't mind giving it back. You on the other hand, not so much.

I think you must have missed the threads discussing the lack of support and/or Fu's future, so I'm including an overview for your convenience (perhaps I'm even missing a few):

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82122
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=77902
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=69474

Ironically, these are by far the most popular topics accumulating close to 35 K views and 300 posts with almost zero BMD participation----I know you guys love statistics, so there you go. Well, there is zero BMD participation in the entire Fusion section of this forum and there is the somewhat naive "Fusion 10 request"s topic, but even in there you will see people voicing their concerns about the future of Fusion.

How is ignoring these questions working out for you so far? Perhaps you may have noticed that word is spreading about Fusion standalone's demise.

https://twitter.com/tonroosendaal/statu ... 5250848769
https://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/ent ... -of-natron

Maybe you're thinking "there's no such thing as bad publicity", who knows. We all know the quote but let me counter it by paraphrasing writer Brendan Behan: "There's no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary." That's me hinting at Fexit of course.

Looking forward to seeing a response,


Your friendly neighbor.

(Edited the title)
Last edited by Kristof Indeherberge on Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: To the boys in blue

PostTue Nov 27, 2018 9:49 am

Why not just post this in the Fusion section?

You could also contact BMD Support directly using the resources on their webpage (including telephone numbers).
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Theodor Groeneboom

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Re: To the boys in blue

PostTue Nov 27, 2018 10:15 am

Marc, we have. Multiple times.

BMD doesn't respond in the Fusion forum.

Please re-read Kristof's post.
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue

PostTue Nov 27, 2018 10:21 am

Marc Wielage wrote:Why not just post this in the Fusion section?


This is what Kristof and many others did for months, without any feedback from the BMD side.
Fusion as a stand-alone is a precious piece of software and there is whole community of
passionated Fusion users desperately hoping for a future for this wonderful VFX tool.
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Tim Vandekerckhove

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Re: To the boys in blue

PostWed Nov 28, 2018 2:42 pm

Some response from BMD would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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RCModelReviews

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostWed Nov 28, 2018 5:46 pm

[sound of crickets chirping....]
Still using Resolve 14 until 15 is sorted, Fusion 9 Studio
CPU: i7 8700, OS: Windows 10 (1709), GPU: GTX1060/6
I'm refugee from Sony Vegas slicing video for my YouTube channels.
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Marc Fisher

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostWed Nov 28, 2018 8:29 pm

Honestly, i just did a pretty simple comp in Fusion Studio, that didn't have anything other than a few merges, bsplines, a color correction a blur, and a defocus.

Resolve 15 with Fusion crashed every time. to the point i was about to reinstall Resolve. Fusion 9 free version, also would crash.

I happen to own a dongle, so on my system at home, it ran like a champ. older mac. same version, but you know, the Studio version.

So yea, BMD really needs to step up support of the Fusion.
what good is it to have in DR if it isn't reliable?
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RCModelReviews

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 1:36 am

Marc Fisher wrote:So yea, BMD really needs to step up support of the Fusion.
what good is it to have in DR if it isn't reliable?


Ask the marketing department... they'll tell you that it helps sell DR to those who think they're going to be getting a "usable" compositor/VFX function in the program. Bullet-points rule on the brochure!

However, if you listen to the Adobe community, their biggest gripe (and one of the many reasons so many have been switching to Resolve) is that Premiere is getting too damned buggy. Well by integrating fusion (to sate the demands of the marketing department) it would appear that BMD may be eroding one of the things that has attracted people to Resolve in the first place.

But as I keep telling people... BMD still have a reliable NLE/color-grading/audio system -- it's called Davinci Resolve Version 14. They also have a very nice (albeit not quite so reliable) Compositing/VFX package called Fusion 9. The one thing they don't have (despite the claims) is a package that contains both in the one program.

It may eventually happen... but right now I think the brand is taking a bit of a beating because:

a) The Fusion tab on DR15 is little more than a joke (for serious work)
b) Fusion 9 is long overdue for some bug-fixes and improvements to its robustness

Just my 2c worth (and 2c aint worth nearly as much as it was in the 1980s).
Still using Resolve 14 until 15 is sorted, Fusion 9 Studio
CPU: i7 8700, OS: Windows 10 (1709), GPU: GTX1060/6
I'm refugee from Sony Vegas slicing video for my YouTube channels.
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Bryan Ray

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 5:48 am

RCModelReviews wrote:They also have a very nice (albeit not quite so reliable) Compositing/VFX package called Fusion 9.


They also still have a somewhat more reliable compositing package (for Windows) called Fusion 7. It's too bad v6 is no longer available, as that was even more stable.

And for what it's worth, we use Fusion 9 for all of our compositing at Muse, and we don't find it unduly crash-prone. Personally, I crash Houdini way more often than I crash Fusion, although I admit that I don't use the planar or 3d tracker, and the only time I deal with a video codec is when I need to check a reference cut. Those are the usual suspects in the majority of instability complaints.

It may eventually happen... but right now I think the brand is taking a bit of a beating because:

a) The Fusion tab on DR15 is little more than a joke (for serious work)
b) Fusion 9 is long overdue for some bug-fixes and improvements to its robustness


Both of those things are true, but the brand is also suffering from a lack of certainty about where it's headed. All it would take to calm things down would be one definitive and official statement (ie, not a second-hand report from a trade show reporter) that BMD intends to continue development. "It will remain available" is not the same as "We're going to devote some development resources to a new version once we're done with the primary Resolve integration."

Even if that's looking two years into the future, just knowing that it's coming might change some purchasing (and book publishing) decisions.
Bryan Ray
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 8:50 am

I think BMD's silence is pretty loud and clear. No updates in almost a year, no official word from BMD, no participation in the forums — seems to me like you're in complete denial.

Personally I think the Fusion integration within Resolve is an industry game-changer, but I agree that we're in the early days still, and lots of bugs need to be worked out. I'm confident that BMD has got some smart cookies working on it and it's just a matter of time before Fusion in Resolve will be much faster and more reliable.

But if you still feel that Fusion within Resolve will never-ever-ever be a workable option for you, it might be time to consider the alternative (hint: it rhymes with 'puke').
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Rohit Gupta

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 8:55 am

Marc Fisher wrote:Honestly, i just did a pretty simple comp in Fusion Studio, that didn't have anything other than a few merges, bsplines, a color correction a blur, and a defocus.

Resolve 15 with Fusion crashed every time. to the point i was about to reinstall Resolve. Fusion 9 free version, also would crash.
....?


Do you have crash logs? If you could test it with 15.2.1 that would be great!
Rohit Gupta

DaVinci Resolve Software Development
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Sulo Kokki

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 2:03 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I think BMD's silence is pretty loud and clear. No updates in almost a year, no official word from BMD, no participation in the forums — seems to me like you're in complete denial.
This.

Not that I speak for BMD or know their plans, but try being in their shoes. Stand-alone Fusion development is "pending" while Resolve integration is underway. It's unlikely they want to commit to one thing or another too early, and then backtrack. Fair to existing Fusion users? Of course not. But BMD seem to be on the fence with the subject, and given that the Resolve tab is a horde of bugs, it's a bad time to announce that they're contemplating on giving up the stand-alone.
Linux Mint 19 | DaVinci Resolve 15.1 | Desktop Video 10.9.3 | OSX 10.11.6
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ErichLinder

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 4:04 am

How's that for sad irony? In a thread about BMD's lack of response to questions about the stand alone Fusion, someone from BMD pops in to ask about the Resolve. :(
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 4:18 am

ErichLinder wrote:How's that for sad irony? In a thread about BMD's lack of response to questions about the stand alone Fusion, someone from BMD pops in to ask about the Resolve.
...in the Resolve forum.
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RCModelReviews

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 5:59 am

Reminds me of Sargeant Shultz from that old TV series Hogan's Heros.

"I see nothing!"

This silence perhaps says more about the future of Fusion stand-alone than any statement the company could make.
Still using Resolve 14 until 15 is sorted, Fusion 9 Studio
CPU: i7 8700, OS: Windows 10 (1709), GPU: GTX1060/6
I'm refugee from Sony Vegas slicing video for my YouTube channels.
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Kel Philm

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 7:09 am

Fusion is a great bit of software and has helped me get to another level as a VFX artist, the integration into Resolve is just not an option for a serious VFX work. BMD made an official statement that standalone was to continue when integration with Resolve began. We have not had any updates for about a year and no mention of any future. This is just bad form. I really hope they dont bin Fusion standalone, it would be such a waste.
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Markus Cermak

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 8:11 am

Rohit response is just a bad joke.
This thread is nothing about Marc Fisher crashing problem with Resolve, he just expresses that he also had a situation where the Fusion Studio standalone on his home mac did the job Resolve Fusion could not.
I happen to own a dongle, so on my system at home, it ran like a champ. older mac. same version, but you know, the Studio version.


The conclusion of his post at the end.

So yea, BMD really needs to step up support of the Fusion.
what good is it to have in DR if it isn't reliable?

So he gives support to the Thread creator and his Post.

So basically the Thread creator Kristof Indeherberge gets ignored.
The whole point of posting here (Resolve Forum) was to finally get someone to notice our concerns as they get ignored in the Fusion section and than this happens,
If it wouldn´d be so sad I would ROFL the hole day.

Same behavior Autodesk showed with the Softimage EOL.
Thats the image BMD managed to create since taking over Fusion.
That wont help them in the long run with 3D/compositing artists.
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 6:21 pm

A possible compromise could be to make Resolve more modular. That is, to allow the user to initially decide what kind of project he/she wants to create. For instance, if I want to have a Fusion and Color project. Neither the Edit nor the Fairlight page need to load etc. Of course, there should be options to extend the project or to deactivate/render some modules next time I continue.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 7:26 pm

Thomas Martin wrote:For instance, if I want to have a Fusion and Color project. Neither the Edit nor the Fairlight page need to load etc. Of course, there should be options to extend the project or to deactivate/render some modules next time I continue.


Maybe? But if BMD can eventually get to a very stable/fast performance point with Fusion within Resolve, are the esthetics of it really that big of an issue?

Here are some things to consider (I would post this in the Fusion forum but they those guys don't want to hear anything that doesn't support their narrow point of view):

1. The VFX paradigm is changing. Maybe it's slower to change at the high end, but eventually even the Marvel and Star Wars big budget films will catch up. The borders between what is VFX, editorial, and grading are blurring. I think BMD understands this, but so does Adobe and AVID. BMD just happens to be faster and more bold about it. Change can be painful, I get it...but in the end it will be worth it.

2. Eyeon software was probably a few months away from declaring bankruptcy and Fusion was going to go down with it. If BMD hadn't stepped in, Fusion would have likely disappeared completely (The Foundry might have bought it just to kill it). Obviously BMD purchased it because they saw a benefit for their own needs. Of course they wanted Fusion for Resolve integration, why would anyone think otherwise? Do you see a standalone Fairlight app somewhere? Where is the download link for Ultimatte standalone? I think they kept Fusion standalone alive because they needed more time to incorporate it within Resolve, but its existence as a standalone product was always on life support. (P.S. I think a 3D CGI app is next…prove me wrong!)

3. BMD doesn't owe an explanation to anyone for their plans. They don't owe anyone an official statement, apology, and they most certainly don't owe giving away the Fusion code as open source. It is up to the users to decide if they still want to play in the BMD ecosystem, or if the time has come to move on. This is not any different than the way Apple has dealt with their professional computing market. Some people are eagerly awaiting for the new Mac Pro hoping that it will be exactly what they've been dreaming about (they will be sorely disappointed), while others have moved on to Windows or Linux (or Hackintoshing).

4. You can threaten to leave BMD, post YouTube videos about their lack of support of Fusion, rants, etc. I don't think BMD is losing sleep over any of it. Resolve has gained them so much momentum in the industry that I doubt that losing their hardcore Fusion contingent is of much concern. I think they're in it for the long game, and I think they'll be proven right in the end. Stay tuned!

5. This is really about money ain't it? Let's be honest, besides the handful of true Fusion die hards (you know who you are), if the rest of you could move to Nuke for $300 you wouldn't be this upset. The fact that Nuke is so prohibitively expensive for many is what makes BMD's abandonment of Fusion that much more frustrating. I get it. Fundamentally, this is really about the fact that The Foundry has gotten you by the nuts and you don't like it! ;-)


Anyway, my advice would be to deal with the fact that Fusion standalone is gone and move on. If your business supports you owning Nuke — go for it, it's an amazing piece of software. If you can't afford it, stick with Fusion 9 for the time being until Resolve catches up with your needs (it will eventually….just gotta be patient).

Peace!
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Theodor Groeneboom

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 8:03 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Maybe? But if BMD can eventually get to a very stable/fast performance point with Fusion within Resolve, are the esthetics of it really that big of an issue?


If changing the esthetics means removing functionality then yes that is a major issue.

I cannot edit expression without copy pasting them out of resolve into a text editor, I can in Fusion Standalone (because I can do basic things like resizing a window).

How is that not a major issue.

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:1. The VFX paradigm is changing. Maybe it's slower to change at the high end, but eventually even the Marvel and Star Wars big budget films will catch up. The borders between what is VFX, editorial, and grading are blurring. I think BMD understands this, but so does Adobe and AVID. BMD just happens to be faster and more bold about it. Change can be painful, I get it...but in the end it will be worth it.


As someone who's worked on several studio films (including Marvel and SW films) you have no idea of the rising complexity of VFX.

You can't just sandwich some editorial and light grading into a Vfx show when you have single shots that takes literally YEARS for SEVERAL artists to complete. Ive seen individual shots that have 10k+ nodes and 500k images attached to them.

You need highly specialised tools for high-end custom tailored work. Fusion Standalone can provide the same context for this type of work that Nuke can. Resolve however can not.

Please see my length answer I've given to you previously about why Fusion in Resolve cannot replace Fusion, even if it becomes faster.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=77902&p=433522#p433522

Im not critical to Fusion in Resolve, I think it makes perfect sense. But im critical to loosing the benefits of having Fusion as a Standalone tool as it serves a different function.

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:2. Eyeon software was probably a few months away from declaring bankruptcy and Fusion was going to go down with it. If BMD hadn't stepped in, Fusion would have likely disappeared completely (The Foundry might have bought it just to kill it).



Im going to need a source


Kays Alatrakchi wrote:(P.S. I think a 3D CGI app is next…prove me wrong!)


You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:3. BMD doesn't owe an explanation to anyone for their plans. They don't owe anyone an official statement, apology, and they most certainly don't owe giving away the Fusion code as open source. It is up to the users to decide if they still want to play in the BMD ecosystem, or if the time has come to move on. This is not any different than the way Apple has dealt with their professional computing market. Some people are eagerly awaiting for the new Mac Pro hoping that it will be exactly what they've been dreaming about (they will be sorely disappointed), while others have moved on to Windows or Linux (or Hackintoshing).


Owe isn't the same as transferring customer and support relationships.
Some of us have been paying customers for years and have invested significantly in infrastructure and training.

It would however be nice to know if we should focus our development elsewhere.......

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:5. This is really about money ain't it? Let's be honest, besides the handful of true Fusion die hards (you know who you are), if the rest of you could move to Nuke for $300 you wouldn't be this upset. The fact that Nuke is so prohibitively expensive for many is what makes BMD's abandonment of Fusion that much more frustrating. I get it. Fundamentally, this is really about the fact that The Foundry has gotten you by the nuts and you don't like it! ;-).


The Foundry have had a stagnated development process of Nuke the last several years while focusing on minimal updates and other ways of bleeding customers for money via subscription schemes.

Its not about money, its about lack of competition. Its about options. If Fusion Standalone goes away, Resolve isn't going to compete with Nuke or NukeStudio.

Just follow the Nuke mailing list and see the Nuke crowd isn't happy with Nukes development either, especially Studio.

But completely removing Fusion will unfortunately leave Nuke as the literal/practical sole king. Good bye innovation hello more maintenence.

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:Anyway, my advice would be to deal with the fact that Fusion standalone is gone and move on. If your business supports you owning Nuke — go for it, it's an amazing piece of software. If you can't afford it, stick with Fusion 9 for the time being until Resolve catches up with your needs (it will eventually….just gotta be patient).


Again, Resolve cannot fit the need of Fusion Standalone due to the arctitechtual differences in how VFX film work and how Resolve thinks VFX should work. At least at the film level you're referencing.

I have 42 blades with Fusion on them, but Resolve won't even start since they have no GPUs in them.

White hole. Spewing time. Engines dead. Air supply low. Advise please.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 8:43 pm

Theodore,

I assume this is you:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2062142/

Congrats on your accomplishments, kudos to you!

Now that we got that out of the way, please re-read what I wrote. I'm not disagreeing with your points or that you're not able to get what you need out of Resolve. I'm simply pointing out that waiting around for an official answer from BMD on FU standalone seems like a waste of time (in my opinion).

To complain about the lack of communication is not likely to get the results you wish for. You don't think BMD reads these forums? You don't think that even Grant Petty is very aware of your complaints? Of course they are. If they choose not to reply is because they don't want to…and continuing to stomp your feet isn't going to make them.

However, what I do think you (and others like you) should be doing is getting actively involved with Blackmagic, maybe join their internal beta team, and try to get them to implement what you're missing from Resolve. If a text editor is missing — push for the implementation of one. If Resolve is too slow — push for them to speed it up somehow. If the interface is too cluttered/different — push for them to improve it. Align your goals with those of Blackmagic and I think you'll find them to be receptive and accommodating.


"White hole. Spewing time. Engines dead. Air supply low. Advise please."

If Fusion 9 can no longer address your needs, and if Resolve 15 is a non-starter; unfortunately your only option is to switch to Nuke. As I said, The Foundry got you by the nuts and you don't like it, but nobody said life is fair. Think of it this way — could be a lot worse…you could have been forced to use Aftereffects! :D
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Chad Capeland

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 8:59 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:However, what I do think you (and others like you) should be doing is getting actively involved with Blackmagic, maybe join their internal beta team, and try to get them to implement what you're missing from Resolve. If a text editor is missing — push for the implementation of one. If Resolve is too slow — push for them to speed it up somehow. If the interface is too cluttered/different — push for them to improve it. Align your goals with those of Blackmagic and I think you'll find them to be receptive and accommodating.


We're literally asking for ANY employee of BMD to respond to a customer request in THEIR OWN FORUM.

If the complete lack of any response is "receptive and accommodating", then what does the opposite look like?
Chad Capeland
Indicated, LLC
www.floweffects.com
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:We're literally asking for ANY employee of BMD to respond to a customer request in THEIR OWN FORUM.


The forum is primarily a place for users to exchange ideas, information, etc. A BMD rep will sometimes chime in, but it's mostly for moderating or to ask clarification or to provide more information about a particular issue like Rohit did a few posts up. This is pretty standard, and comparable to SideFX, Adobe, and just about any other developer I've dealt with.

For what it's worth, they do seem to be more present in the Resolve forums than in the Fusion ones (which is another big sign of where their focus is).

But once again, they don't owe you a response, and their lack of one despite the incessant asking should tell you all you need to know about the matter.

P.S.

If you want to involve yourself with Resolve 15, and improving the Fusion component in it, here's where I would start:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/contact/email

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/contact/phone
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Tim Vandekerckhove

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 9:15 am

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:P.S.

If you want to involve yourself with Resolve 15, and improving the Fusion component in it, here's where I would start:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/contact/email

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/support/contact/phone



Kays, you do seem to enjoy trolling these FU-standalone related threads. Or have you taken it upon yourself to be the self-appointed BMD-spokesperson/bouncer in their absence? In either case, please tone it down a bit. It's not helpful nor respectful.
You have made your case: "Resolve is great for you and if we don't like the way things are going, deal with it or move on"
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Marc Wielage

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 2:53 pm

I'm not an apologist, nor do I work for BMD, but my observation is that the company is working extremely hard at staying on top of really severe bugs to get the program absolutely stable. I think Fusion will eventually work much better, but the company has a Herculean task at getting everything to work seamlessly as one big program. I think everybody's going to have to cut them some slack and have some patience for the time being.

If Fusion is an integral part of your workflow and you need to rely on it heavily, then do what I do and just buy a license for the standalone Fusion 9 (and get a lot of RAM). You may find this is a better solution right now than doing anything complex in Resolve. I honestly believe that eventually, it will work well in Resolve, but it's fair to say it's a work in progress.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 5:04 pm

Tim Vandekerckhove wrote:
Kays Alatrakchi wrote: In either case, please tone it down a bit. It's not helpful nor respectful.
You have made your case: "Resolve is great for you and if we don't like the way things are going, deal with it or move on"


Tim, there is nothing disrespectful into anything that I write unless you choose to interpret it that way. I am just stating an opinion, not fact. But even what Marc just stated is basically what I've been saying all along — Fusion in Resolve is buggy at the moment, but it will keep improving.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said Fusion in Resolve is great for you or anyone else, as a matter of fact I've been pretty clear that it's not yet where it needs to be. However (in my opinion) Blackmagic has been pretty clear in the direction that they're taking since their announcement at NAB.

If anyone has been disrespectful, quite frankly it's you by accusing me of trolling.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Manuel López

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 7:03 pm

I fully subscribe to what Tim Vandekerckhove said.

And going back to the content of the thread, I think BMD's silence says it all: Fusion will only exist in the future into Resolve, the standalone has its days counted.
That won't be a problem for many, but if a big problem for others. For those who will be a problem will have to look for a solution.
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Tim Vandekerckhove

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 10:33 am

This might have been the downside to trying to get some attention from BMD in the resolve forum. Experienced Resolve colorists telling Veteran Fusion compositors how they should use fusion... [triggered] because apparently having a fusion tab in their (favorite) software now makes them experts in compositing workflows and pipelines. Don't advise us to buy FU9 dongles, work with older versions, use a lot of ram or.... what's next: if it crashes a lot, save more often? [/triggered]

I know all these replies are meant well and constructive and even have a lot of valid points. But they are mostly beside the point of this threads intention. And this might result in some frustrations on my/our part... :)

This thread was not a debate-starter about whether Fusion in Resolve is a good thing. But if a lot of, maybe even all veteran Fusion users say it is not and most likely will not be a valid replacement for Fusion Studio in a lot of compositing pipelines, for various reasons explained in depth on the various fusion-forums, PLEASE take their word for it or do some extensive research of your own.

But again, all this was not the intention of Kristof, the OP, when posting this here in the resolve-forum. He and pretty much all of the old fusion users have a valid concern about the future of Fusion Studio. Hence trying to get any sign of live from people at BMD more than "people will still be able to use Fusion Studio".
Simply put: It got asked here since they won't engage in conversations about this on the fusion forums (here and at WSL, and other unsuccessful attempts to get more info.

We can all agree on this: a lot of signals, or lack thereof, seem to point in the direction of a future EOL for Fusion Studio and it's sole future as a resolve-tab. There might even be an update or a Fu10 in the works. Who knows, right?

That's why they need to chime in on the conversation. Any communication is better than none. maybe not even deny or confirm these rumors but even something like: it isn't that simple or we don't know if it's still profitable to keep investing time and money in the standalone... Something...

#NoMoreRadioSilence ;)
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 6:57 pm

Tim Vandekerckhove wrote:Any communication is better than none. maybe not even deny or confirm these rumors but even something like: it isn't that simple or we don't know if it's still profitable to keep investing time and money in the standalone... Something...

#NoMoreRadioSilence ;)



Tim, I'm not trolling, just interested in a genuine conversation. I wish we could chat about this in person since I do think most of the tone and occasional humor really does get lost in these posts.

Now, assuming that Fusion as a standalone is done, and from this point on it's Resolve all the way, ask yourself this — what does Blackmagic stand to gain by letting people know that Fusion standalone is EOL?

This is not a rhetorical question, but rather a practical one. I see two scenarios, and neither one would have much benefit to Blackmagic:

Scenario #1 - There is a lot of anger on the Fusion forums, lots of Fusion users badmouthing BMD elsewhere. They move on to Nuke.

Scenario #2 - There is a lot of anger on the Fusion forums, lots of Fusion users badmouthing BMD elsewhere. They reluctantly stick it out with Fusion 9.

In either scenario, I don't see how BMD benefits from disclosing their plans.

Here is what I'm pretty sure I'm right about — BMD knows exactly the statistics of how many Fusion users are now using Resolve vs. using Fusion 9. My guess (but I think a pretty good guess) is that they have made a determination that the impact of them losing Fusion users is minimal compared to the impact of gaining new Resolve 15 users thanks to Fusion integration.

In conclusion, I believe they're making informed business decisions that have the highest benefit, and they have determined that a Fusion EOL announcement isn't necessary/beneficial. Cynical? Perhaps. But not any different than just about every other company out there.


P.S.

If Fusion standalone is not EOL, then I'm just as puzzled as everyone else at the lack of some clarification. But I'll stick with Occam's razor with this one and assume that Fusion standalone is indeed EOL.
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Chad Capeland

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 8:24 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:If anyone has been disrespectful, quite frankly it's you by accusing me of trolling.


Please refrain from responding to any Fusion related threads in the future, then. You've admitted you have nothing at all to contribute.
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 9:05 pm

Chad Capeland wrote:
Kays Alatrakchi wrote:If anyone has been disrespectful, quite frankly it's you by accusing me of trolling.


Please refrain from responding to any Fusion related threads in the future, then. You've admitted you have nothing at all to contribute.



WTF is your problem? What's your contribution exactly? :lol: :lol: :lol:
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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RCModelReviews

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 9:10 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:This is not a rhetorical question, but rather a practical one. I see two scenarios, and neither one would have much benefit to Blackmagic:

Scenario #1 - There is a lot of anger on the Fusion forums, lots of Fusion users badmouthing BMD elsewhere. They move on to Nuke.

Scenario #2 - There is a lot of anger on the Fusion forums, lots of Fusion users badmouthing BMD elsewhere. They reluctantly stick it out with Fusion 9.

In either scenario, I don't see how BMD benefits from disclosing their plans.

I think you do the Fusion community a disservice with your possible scenarios.

Right now there is a very real scenario in which Fusion users are questioning BMD's commitment to a product and (therefore) a commitment to those customers who use Fusion stand-alone. This does no good to the company's reputation.

Being treated like a mushroom does not create trust and goodwill.

I would say that if BMD just came out and told us what their plans were then, being the professionals most are, the Fusion stand-alone community would either:

Scenario #1 (Fusion SA is EOL) - continue to use the existing version but begin the transition to another product in respect to new-hires and training.

Scenario #2 (Fusion SA is still alive) - retain their commitment to the product and patiently wait for Fusion 10 to be released.

It is the "not knowing" that is hurting the relationship between BMD and its Fusion stand-alone customers. Simply ignoring customers who ask very important questions is exceptionally bad form because it denies them the right to plan for the future. I really don't think it's too much to ask that BMD simply enlightens us so that we can properly plan ahead.
Still using Resolve 14 until 15 is sorted, Fusion 9 Studio
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Kays Alatrakchi

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 9:28 pm

RCModelReviews wrote:It is the "not knowing" that is hurting the relationship between BMD and its Fusion stand-alone customers. Simply ignoring customers who ask very important questions is exceptionally bad form because it denies them the right to plan for the future. I really don't think it's too much to ask that BMD simply enlightens us so that we can properly plan ahead.


I completely agree with you, and if you (or others) actually go back and read any of my previous posts, I never condone or suggest that BMD has been behaving correctly toward its users in this particular case.

My entire point (one that Chad, and others apparently would prefer not to hear) is that (in my opinion) the very lack of communication from BMD is a form of communication.

I don't think you are asking for too much, but at what point do you come to the conclusion that the answer might never arrive?
>>Kays Alatrakchi
www.mbkproductions.com
Director, Colorist, Composer (not necessarily in that order).
Resolve 15.2, Mac OS X 10.13.5 (High Sierra), i7 8700k, 32Gb DDR4 RAM, Dual GTX 1080ti, Decklink Mini Monitor, USB 3.1 RAID
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Kristof Indeherberge

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 10:45 pm

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I don't think you are asking for too much, but at what point do you come to the conclusion that the answer might never arrive?


Cool, I don't think we are asking for too much neither.

Not accepting BMD's silent treatment is an important message. Exposing it even more so. Future customers will think twice (or should anyway). So if that answer never comes (you are probably right when you say it might never happen), well, that silence will speak volumes. I really hope that it will get more media attention.

Will try to get back to you on some of the things you've written earlier, but for now, I would like to thank the people in here who are voicing their concerns and show support. I'm also saluting the brave BMD employee who jumped in and asked to see those crash reports.

We have been accused of being a bunch of whining fusioneers, but these people just don't get it. Some of them were getting pretty nervous when Resolve wasn't playing nice.
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Kel Philm

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSun Dec 02, 2018 11:12 pm

With all due respect a lot of the people who are voicing the 'find something else' or 'its a really good idea, you can just use Resolve now' are not VFX artists. Most of those who have raised there voices for Fusion Standalone are very accomplished Post Production/VFX Artists and people like yourself Kristof who have done a lot work for the Fusion community. You only need to look at all the support they give over at Steak under Water and with the implementation of Reactor. There is a reason people feel passionate about Fusion, its a little tough to pick up but once you do it is empowering, every bit as good as Nuke and for a professional it makes After Effects look like a toy (both tools I have used extensively).

I'm not saying that Compositing tools in Resolve is a bad idea, I love that we are seeing more people using Fusion, but these newbees have started to download Fusion standalone as well and BMD should really be listening. Still amazed that a company such as BMD seem to be happy to have a gag order in place.

Any how, Viva La Fusion!
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Chad Capeland

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostMon Dec 03, 2018 3:01 am

Even if they WERE VFX artists (and 0% of them are, so that should tell you something), the lack of support (or communication) doesn't bode well for doing VFX in Resolve. Ever.

If the standard for VFX software at BMD is this low and support this lacking and no one seems to mind, then there really isn't much expectation that things will be better in Resolve.

Meaning, no one is doing VFX in Resolve since Resolve doesn't do VFX well since no one is doing VFX in Resolve since Resolve doesn't do VFX well since...

But a standalone VFX package which shares an SDK and scripting language with Resolve would actually help Resolve get decent VFX capabilities. And selling 2 licenses instead of 1 can't hurt financially.
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostMon Dec 03, 2018 4:53 pm

I would not mind to pay an upgrade fee if Fusion standalone cannot be supported otherwise.
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Kel Philm

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostMon Dec 03, 2018 8:26 pm

Agreed,

I would have no problem paying for upgrades, even at $300 ths would be a no brainer. If we were able to get the same level of support and dev that Resolve is getting I would happily pay $1000 per upgrade. I've always wondered about BMD's pricing model, its great for users, but in the long run how can this keep funding development? I feel at some point they have to charge for upgrades or move to a subscription model (I hope not).
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Mariosupa

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostTue Dec 04, 2018 6:05 am

All this really sucks!

Im a motion designer and I’m “newish” to Fusion and I’ve been investing money and a looooot of time learning to eventually switch from AE. I’m also learning resolve because it feels much better than premiere. I bought Fusion Studio to support development because I can’t use a software that brings so much and pay nothing.
Unfortunately, it seems that things are not going well on Fusion SA planet. It definitely feels like BMD is pulling an Apple Shake when they sucked all the ressources to put them in FCP and Motion. Note that they still have a Motion SA
I’m really bummed because Fusion SA is such a great tool. Lean and fast (when it wants).

I do think that it would be nice from BMD to say if SA is still on board or not because then maybe it’s smarter for newcomers not to loose precious nights getting better at it. Fusion in resolve is definitely not working (yet) and requires way more ressources than Fusion SA to “run” that way. If at least they would make SA more stable meanwhile, it would change everything...
I started to check out Nuke... but yeah, not so appealing and prohibitive pricing for freelancers. So I’ll probably stick to AE layers because even if Adobe cares about money, they take care of their customers.

But I feel sad and, above all, tricked.
For me, BMD was a long awaited hero. And now, it’s just a regular company. Not bad, not good, just doing their stuff.

I think resolve users could be a bit more supportive to fusion users... we’re all on the same ship. We should all unite and raise the issues together instead of telling people to leave if they are unhappy.


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Kel Philm

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostThu Dec 06, 2018 1:27 am

This is a good lesson because it seems Apple ended up losing a lot of customers to Premiere and elsewhere. They are now taking a few hits with their flagship hardware as well, just as well they have the cash resources to buy a country if they needed to.

I must admit for me VFX connect was a simple but useful inclusion into my Resolve workflow, I didn't need anything else, its probably still a faster workflow than Fusion in Resolve in most of circumstances, just needed a better folder structure than the nonsensical one it currently uses.

Dread to think how much money has been spent integrating it and for what?
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Dec 07, 2018 11:40 am

BMD presently firmly integrates Fusion into Resolve. Probably, from now on, all new features are added directly to the integrated version. This is a decision made by BMD we have to accept. However, it should not be a big effort to update a parallel Fusion standalone and I would like to encourage BMD to do so. It is a matter of experience that many VFX packages had more success when they where sold as plugin version and as a standalone at the same time. Some examples ? Hitfilm/Ignite, AE/Boris Red or Particle Illusion, Maya/Keyshot etc. and of course an endless list of standalone apps one may equally use as Photoshop plugins. I hope that BMD can act similarly,
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roger.magnusson

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostFri Dec 07, 2018 2:22 pm

Thomas Martin wrote:However, it should not be a big effort to update a parallel Fusion standalone and I would like to encourage BMD to do so.

I remember Grant saying this is what they would do. Can't find that interview though. Maybe it was in the NAB presentation.
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 08, 2018 1:35 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:
Thomas Martin wrote:However, it should not be a big effort to update a parallel Fusion standalone and I would like to encourage BMD to do so.

I remember Grant saying this is what they would do. Can't find that interview though. Maybe it was in the NAB presentation.

Hope you are right, but why can nobody from BMD simply confirm this anywhere here ?
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RCModelReviews

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 08, 2018 6:26 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:
Thomas Martin wrote:However, it should not be a big effort to update a parallel Fusion standalone and I would like to encourage BMD to do so.

I remember Grant saying this is what they would do. Can't find that interview though. Maybe it was in the NAB presentation.

From this page: https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... -surprises

When I asked whether Fusion was end of life as a standalone product, Blackmagic USA President Dan May clarified. Resolve 15 will not include the entire feature set of Fusion. Rather, as Dan put it, Fusion will contain a superset of Resolve 15 Fusion functionality. Fusion, then, will continue as a standalone product both in its paid and free versions
Still using Resolve 14 until 15 is sorted, Fusion 9 Studio
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Gary Hango

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 08, 2018 8:23 pm

I’ll bet the reason Fusion SA hasn’t seen any updates recently is because all Fusion development resources were moved to integrating it with Resolve, which probably started a year before the v15 betas came out. Once integration of the subset reaches stability, resources can be moved back to Fusion SA and new code for both developed in parallel.
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Thomas Martin

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 08, 2018 9:41 pm

Gary Hango wrote:I’ll bet the reason Fusion SA hasn’t seen any updates recently is because all Fusion development resources were moved to integrating it with Resolve, which probably started a year before the v15 betas came out. Once integration of the subset reaches stability, resources can be moved back to Fusion SA and new code for both developed in parallel.


Sounds plausible, but then, from a chess player viewpoint, I expect that the Fusion dongle will no longer work for Resolve 16. The Resolve dongle does not work for Fusion although it seemed to be superseded from Resolve with included Fusion.
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George Deierling

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Re: To the boys in blue (request to know where we're at with

PostSat Dec 08, 2018 10:52 pm

Theodor Groeneboom wrote:
As someone who's worked on several studio films (including Marvel and SW films) you have no idea of the rising complexity of VFX.

You can't just sandwich some editorial and light grading into a Vfx show when you have single shots that takes literally YEARS for SEVERAL artists to complete. Ive seen individual shots that have 10k+ nodes and 500k images attached to them.


Theodor -
Just an off-topic question if I may...
On this high budget big investment projects, what makes them choose Fusion over Nuke?

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