Please Fix the audio routing

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Henchman

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Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 1:18 am

The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.
I've been working in audio for 35 years. And I've just spent an hour trying to figure out how to simply route beeps and audio out of the same output.

I love the picture side of Davinci.
But the audio side is un-necessarily complicated.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:12 am

The issue is not with the audio routing implementation within Resolve which functions like Fairlight v5.1

Several non-professional and non-audio specialised users on this forum have successfully learned the system and have continued using the Fairlight page with great success.

The issue is not the application.
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Peter Cave

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:51 am

Henchman wrote:The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.
I've been working in audio for 35 years. And I've just spent an hour trying to figure out how to simply route beeps and audio out of the same output.

I love the picture side of Davinci.
But the audio side is un-necessarily complicated.


+100
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Sam Steti

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 9:00 am

Reynaud Venter wrote:The issue is not with the audio routing implementation within Resolve which functions like Fairlight v5.1

Several non-professional and non-audio specialised users on this forum have successfully learned the system and have continued using the Fairlight page with great success.

The issue is not the application.
You mean that the issue is necessarily located between the chair and the keyboard ?
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 9:03 am

Sam Steti wrote:You mean that the issue is necessarily located between the chair and the keyboard ?
Possible.
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Peter Cave

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 9:34 am

I think there are better ways to implement audio routing. Fairlight is quite complicated compared to other editing software.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 9:49 am

On another "pro audio" forum that Henchman is a member of, a heavy ProTools user with more than just a little experience in audio post for picture claimed:
the IO page is just about the best one I've seen, it's a lot like PatchNet and it's extremely easy to see what's going on
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Peter Benson

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 10:52 am

Henchman wrote:The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.
I've been working in audio for 35 years. And I've just spent an hour trying to figure out how to simply route beeps and audio out of the same output.

I love the picture side of Davinci.
But the audio side is un-necessarily complicated.
+1

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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:19 pm

Sam Steti wrote:
Reynaud Venter wrote:The issue is not with the audio routing implementation within Resolve which functions like Fairlight v5.1

Several non-professional and non-audio specialised users on this forum have successfully learned the system and have continued using the Fairlight page with great success.

The issue is not the application.
You mean that the issue is necessarily located between the chair and the keyboard ?

In the last 35 years I've worked in Live sound, A list studios like The Record Plant in Sausalito, various audio post production studios, including building and owning my own.
I've used SSL's, synclavier Post Pro's, DAR and owned 4 actual fairlights.
I've used Logic, Logic Audio, Logic Pro, Cubase, Nuendo, SAW, Samplitude and of course Pro Tools.
I've used FCP, FCPX, Avide Express, Avid Media Composer, Premiere and Now Davinci.
I've been nominated for numerous awards, and have an Emmy.


Yeah.
Must be me, right?
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:24 pm

Henchman wrote:Must be me, right?
If Editors and Colourists on this forum with significantly less audio experience are able to figure this stuff out, then yes.
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Jean Claude

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:29 pm

Hello Mark,

Maybe you have to learn step by step how to use the HMI. Quite simply? :)
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:38 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
Henchman wrote:Must be me, right?
If Editors and Colourists on this forum with significantly less audio experience are able to figure this stuff out, then yes.

And I'm telling you for a fact, that unless they get the audio portion, usability and routing sorted properly, so that its quick and easy to use. No audio post facility is going to use it.
We don't have time to deal with the nonsensical, idiosyncrasies the Fairlight portion presents us with.
When you have to deal with hundreds of tracks, numerous routing, and group setups, and you can't accomplish a simple thing quickly, or see all the routing clearly, then it's dead in the water.

As I said.
I couldn't easily simply send beeps to main output along with my main mix.
Something like that should be a one button selection.
Last edited by Henchman on Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:38 pm

Jean Claude wrote:Hello Mark,

Maybe you have to learn step by step how to use the HMI. Quite simply? :)



Or maybe they need to redesign their routing page so it's logical.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:43 pm

Well Mark, for someone who ensures us repeatedly that “Hollywood” will never move from ProTools, I'm honestly surprised you’re posting here so soon.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:47 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:Well Mark, for someone who ensures us repeatedly that “Hollywood” will never move from ProTools, I'm honestly surprised you’re posting here so soon.

I think resokve is a fantastic editor.
Why wouldn't I want to try and help improvemit?
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Henchman wrote:Why wouldn't I want to try and help improvemit?
Don't get me wrong, surprise aside, it’s great that you are at least giving it a look and considering where it may improve. That’s a major shift in thinking.
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Jean Claude

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 pm

Henchman wrote:
Jean Claude wrote:Hello Mark,

Maybe you have to learn step by step how to use the HMI. Quite simply? :)



Or maybe they need to redesign their routing page so it's logical.


Maybe the big difference is that it's not just a DAW (all alone in its corner and forcing itself to go round trip all day long) but integrated into a NLE + Color grading system? what's more works in collaboration mode?

We should change his habits ... and the comfort in which we have been...

It's only a matter of habit at first ... :)
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 5:08 pm

Jean Claude wrote:
Henchman wrote:
Jean Claude wrote:Hello Mark,

Maybe you have to learn step by step how to use the HMI. Quite simply? :)



Or maybe they need to redesign their routing page so it's logical.


Maybe the big difference is that it's not just a DAW (all alone in its corner and forcing itself to go round trip all day long) but integrated into a NLE + Color grading system? what's more works in collaboration mode?

We should change his habits ... and the comfort in which we have been...

It's only a matter of habit at first ... :)


Would you expect editors to embrace a system not designed to work the way they're used to working at a basic level?

No, you wouldn't.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 5:13 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:If Editors and Colourists on this forum with significantly less audio experience are able to figure this stuff out, then yes.


I'm not sure that's a foregone conclusion. The sample here is much too small, and editors who are flummoxed by the whole thing, or who who haven't been exposed to DAW basics on other systems, probably won't post. Only field research is likely to reveal how accessible Fairlight actually is, either to experienced sound people or editors with limited or no prior audio work.
Last edited by John Paines on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 5:16 pm

John Paines wrote:
Reynaud Venter wrote:If Editors and Colourists on this forum with significantly less audio experience are able to figure this stuff out, then yes.
1

I'm not sure that's a foregone conclusion. The sample here is much too small, and editors who are flummoxed by the whole thing, or who who haven't been exposed to DAW basic on other systems, probably won't post.

Also, how many editors and colorists are dealing with complex routing. Adr recording, and hundreds of tracks, busses, vca's and auxes? With executives sitting behind them, and talent in a recording booth.

Reality?

The majority of them deal with a single stereo output.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 5:50 pm

John Paines wrote:Only field research is likely to reveal how accessible Fairlight actually is, either to experienced sound people or editors with limited or no prior audio work.
Traditionally, the Fairlight system was different enough in implementation to the other alternate audio workstations, resulting in it always having a steep learning curve. But, it was infinitely more capable in many respects than the competing systems, especially on mission critical scenarios such as the live broadcasts for the World Cup Football, Olympics, EuroVision, or the Grammys, and then rapidly churning out a multitude of different programming in different languages.

A workstation such as Pyramix, has an even greater learning curve, that most ProTools users struggle adopting (actually, most have never even heard of it). Yet, it, along with the Fairlight system, are still common workstations in use by broadcasters from Europe, Asia, and even the United States, working on the type of productions outlined, where turnaround times are same day, not weeks or months like Hollywood. The Hollywood guys can’t handle broadcast deadlines - and I’ve worked with a few over the years.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:03 pm

I owned 4 Fairlights.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm

As far as handling deadlines.
We mix intricate hour long shows in 14 hours, ready for client playback.
Where we start from scratch with raw edited material.

I've mixed 90 minute low budget movies in 3 days by myself.

Don't tell me we can't deal with short deadlines.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:15 pm

Henchman wrote:Don't tell me we can't deal with short deadlines.
Ever edited and mixed multipart programming while it was still on air?
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:27 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
Henchman wrote:Don't tell me we can't deal with short deadlines.
Ever edited and mixed multipart programming while it was still on air?

Actually, i have for the CBC in Vancouver.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:31 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
Henchman wrote:Don't tell me we can't deal with short deadlines.
Ever edited and mixed multipart programming while it was still on air?


Have you mixed longform material, consisting of hundreds of tracks, cleaning up dialog, matching ADR, multitracks Music Stems, all to broadcast spec, with network execs, showrunners and producers sitting behind you, expecting a feature quality soundtrack in a day and a half?
That's what I do almost everyday.
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Sam Steti

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:33 pm

:popcorn:
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 pm

Henchman wrote:Have you mixed longform material, consisting of hundreds of tracks, cleaning up dialog, matching ADR, multitracks Music Stems, all to broadcast spec, with network execs, showrunners and producers sitting behind you, expecting a feature quality soundtrack in a day and a half?
That's what I do almost everyday.
Yes, daily, and often dubbing that content in to other languages. We have 11 official languages, further serving a region with half a dozen more.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:00 pm

Not to interrupt the Battle of the Titans, but the most intuitive and easy-to-setup routing matrix I've ever encountered is the one in Ardour and Harrison Mixbus (Mixbus adds channel strip emulation to Ardour). See it illustrated here: http://admiralbumblebee.com/music/2017/ ... on-manager

I'd love to see something like this in Fairlight.
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John Paines

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:07 pm

I think this is a case where the "customer is always right". A picture editor who knows any of FCP7, Premiere, Avid, Edius, etc., can start cutting in Resolve within ten minutes and will have a list of wished-for features within two days. If the same isn't true of Fairlight, it'll never be used widely. There are too many other choices.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 pm

John Paines wrote:A picture editor who knows any of FCP7, Premiere, Avid, Edius, etc., can start cutting in Resolve within ten minutes and will have a list of wished-for features within two days
There are more than a handful of threads from users of other editing systems new to Resolve complaining of the editing implementation and paradigm within Resolve - and how difficult it is to use, and “why can’t be it be more like Product X, or Y?” The latest appears to be Vegas users wanting fluid audio and video track ordering.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:16 pm

John Paines wrote:If the same isn't true of Fairlight, it'll never be used widely. There are too many other choices.


But I think the integration of Fairlight in Resolve is going to provide enough incentive for people to learn how to work with it. The potential benefits are worth the investment.
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Reynaud Venter

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:18 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:The potential benefits are worth the investment.
And that is the salient point, true for the Cut page, as well as the Edit page.

Learn the system, it will be worth your efforts over the longer term.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:27 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
John Paines wrote:A picture editor who knows any of FCP7, Premiere, Avid, Edius, etc., can start cutting in Resolve within ten minutes and will have a list of wished-for features within two days
There are more than a handful of threads from users of other editing systems new to Resolve complaining of the editing implementation and paradigm within Resolve - and how difficult it is to use, and “why can’t be it be more like Product X, or Y?” The latest appears to be Vegas users wanting fluid audio and video track ordering.


it doesn't need to be fluid, but their are definitely some issues with how tracks get ordered when you have multiple audio and video tracks that don't have a 1 to 1 correlation.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:32 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
John Paines wrote:A picture editor who knows any of FCP7, Premiere, Avid, Edius, etc., can start cutting in Resolve within ten minutes and will have a list of wished-for features within two days
There are more than a handful of threads from users of other editing systems new to Resolve complaining of the editing implementation and paradigm within Resolve - and how difficult it is to use, and “why can’t be it be more like Product X, or Y?” The latest appears to be Vegas users wanting fluid audio and video track ordering.


Except we're not talking about picture, are we.
As an audio professional who has done some picture editing, I don't feel I have the experience and exposure to question professional picture editors requests.
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John Paines

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:But I think the integration of Fairlight in Resolve is going to provide enough incentive for people to learn how to work with it. The potential benefits are worth the investment.


I think the idea is to design software people in the field actually want to use -- not just tolerate, for the sake of convenience.

I can't comment myself, not being an audio editor. But it's probably a good idea to listen to criticism. The sample of satisfied Fairlight users here is far too small to conclude much of anything.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:36 pm

I'm on Henchman's side of this one. (Also having decades of use on all DAW platforms as a professional here). Please follow conventional audio-world norms.

PS: Hi Henchman, good to see you here.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:41 pm

John Paines wrote:But it's probably a good idea to listen to criticism
Agreed, constructive criticism should be welcomed, but starting threads with “Is Blackmagic interested in input from audio professionals. Let me know. I'm a longtime audio post professional” or “Please Fix the audio routing. The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.” aren’t exactly useful.

Thus far, Brad Hurley has been the only one to actually provide something for the developers to go on.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 7:45 pm

Reynaud Venter wrote:
John Paines wrote:But it's probably a good idea to listen to criticism
Agreed, constructive criticism should be welcomed, but starting threads with “Is Blackmagic interested in input from audio professionals. Let me know. I'm a longtime audio post professional” or “Please Fix the audio routing. The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.” aren’t exactly useful.


Yea, that sounds more like bitc****.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostWed Apr 17, 2019 11:28 pm

last week i had a filmmaker bring me a short film as a DRP, i was going to screen on my callibrated / big monitor, do any last tweaks and make a DCP

he had the audio routed useing information from this site

it was a fail... total fail all 6ch muxed into an overloaded mono track 1 and trk 2->5 MoS

now this particular filmmaker has a day job,, he's a DiT on a huge American TV show, top rated prime time TV show... so not really tech challenged atall, but he does not use Resolve in his day job

that he could not get the mix routed from media pool to deliver with all his skills + the instructions from the well meaning folks here points to software that is incredably bad at the simple task of routeing cleanly with zero fail points, very poor inaccurate and just plan bad documentation only adds fuel to the fire

it needs the v12.5 matrix brought back, it is just not reliable or transparent as it stands

but with so many fails, it's not the operator causeing this

btw, on that short film i used another software to add the audio and create the DCP, that software has simple, clear, straightforward track routeing

then it was no problem
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Will Howard

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 2:53 am

I think it's easy but I'm used to it. It probably made more sense with a console and physical buttons that light to show the routing for each bus.

But in general it works like any Source > Destination router. Pick your destination first, then what you want to feed it.

I can't say it's the best approach because that's subjective. I like matrix style bussing too. They both make more sense than the classic Pro Tools one-at-a-time click fest.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 2:37 pm

Dermot Shane wrote:but with so many fails, it's not the operator causeing this


I have to disagree, I'm just an enthusiast and I had no problem figuring it out, after a few minutes of Ctrl+F in the manual and a few google searches.

Perhaps certain people are to stuck in their ways, and can't tolerate something not working the way they think it should!
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John Paines

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 2:44 pm

Dan Sherman wrote:[Perhaps certain people are to stuck in their ways, and can't tolerate something not working the way they think it should!


Perhaps they are, but companies rarely prosper by upbraiding their customers for being close-minded. Positions which appeal to forum members may not do as well for the sales department.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 2:50 pm

"Figuring it out" may be straightforward for a small system, perhaps less so when you have dozens of inputs and outputs and hundreds of tracks. And the patch bay doesn't reveal everything that's going on; see viewtopic.php?f=21&t=62314 for example.

Some of the obstacles could be overcome by clearer and more thorough documentation, while others might require some rethinking of the interface to make it more intuitive.
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Dan Sherman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 2:58 pm

John Paines wrote:Perhaps they are, but companies rarely prosper by upbraiding their customers for being close-minded. Positions which appeal to forum members may not do as well for the sales department.


In my eyes its no different than getting a new car from a different manufacture than you're used to. The owner has to adapt, as the manufacture can't customize the product for everyone's personal likes.

  • The hood and fuel release might be in a different spot
  • The gas cap might be on the other side of the car
  • The seats and steering column might adjust differently
  • The on board computer might have a completely different interface


Not to mention it's 2019 and technology is advancing faster than ever. Regardless of what someones filed or experience level is, they need to be continually learning or they risk becoming that person who can't figure out how to use the VCR.
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Henchman

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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 3:02 pm

Dan Sherman wrote:
John Paines wrote:Perhaps they are, but companies rarely prosper by upbraiding their customers for being close-minded. Positions which appeal to forum members may not do as well for the sales department.


In my eyes its no different than getting a new car from a different manufacture than you're used to. The owner has to adapt, as the manufacture can't customize the product for everyone's personal likes.

  • The hood and fuel release might be in a different spot
  • The gas cap might be on the other side of the car
  • The seats and steering column might adjust differently
  • The on board computer might have a completely different interface


Not to mention it's 2019 and technology is advancing faster than ever. Regardless of what someones filed or experience level is, they need to be continually learning or they risk becoming that person who can't figure out how to use the VCR.


Worst analogy ever.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Or maybe, blackmagic should try and get some input from people who are audiompost production professionals, who work in audio everyday.

Not picture editors who dabble in audio.
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 3:12 pm

Henchman wrote:Or maybe, blackmagic should try and get some input from people who are audiompost production professionals, who work in audio everyday.

Not picture editors who dabble in audio.


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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Henchman wrote:The audio routing page in Fairlight is the most convoluted, non sensical design I've ever seen.
I've been working in audio for 35 years. And I've just spent an hour trying to figure out how to simply route beeps and audio out of the same output.

I love the picture side of Davinci.
But the audio side is un-necessarily complicated.

Not questioning your impressive resume, but, come on... As a seasoned pro, your input of "convoluted, non sensical design" lacks detailed information which could help the developers of DR with future updates... I'm sure providing a detailed breakdown of much needed features would conflict with what I can only assume is a hectic schedule for you. That said, just such a breakdown would be a beneficial to BMD and it's users. :)
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Re: Please Fix the audio routing

PostThu Apr 18, 2019 4:13 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:"Figuring it out" may be straightforward for a small system, perhaps less so when you have dozens of inputs and outputs and hundreds of tracks. And the patch bay doesn't reveal everything that's going on; see viewtopic.php?f=21&t=62314 for example.

Some of the obstacles could be overcome by clearer and more thorough documentation, while others might require some rethinking of the interface to make it more intuitive.


Hello Brad,

Last post of this tread is : Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:04 pm
Since then there have been improvements ... :?
"Saying it is good, but doing it is better! "
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