BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

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Michael Moore

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BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 2:51 pm

Hi! I own a UM 4K with full accesories: BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM V-lock battery plate, 1 V-mount battery, Canon 24-70 f2.8 II, Canon 70-200 f2.8 II, Sigma 18-35 f.18, 2 Cfast Lexar 128 GB 3400x , 2 Cfast Transcend 128GB.
Few day ago i want to buy UMP G2. After the BMPCC 6K announcement i asking you: worth to buy UMP G2 or BMPCC 6K?
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Michael Odhiambo

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Yes
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 4:12 pm

Michael Odhiambo wrote:Yes


Please can argues moore?
For example i make here a PRO and CON list

BMPCC 6K PRO
- 6K resolution
- low light performance (dual ISO up for 25600)
- low price vs UMP G2
- small body, easy to stabilize with gimbal
- multiple power source: Canon LP E6, adapter to
NP F battery, V-mount/Anton Bauer

UMP G2 CONS
- 4.6K resolution
- poor low light performance (800 base ISO up to 3200)
- big price vs BMPCC 6K
- big body, very difficult to stabilize with gimbal
- power source: just heavy battery V-mount/ Anton Bauer


BMPCC 6K CONS
- 13 stops dynamic range
- slow motion performance: up 60 fps full sensor4K
/120 window
- no internal ND
- not broadcast style control
- very difficult to control manual focus in run and
gun style (shoulder mount)
- need rig for run and gun style

UMP G2 PRO
- 15 stops dynamic range
- slow motion performance: up to 120 full sensor 4.6K /300 window
- internal ND
- broadcast stylecontrol
- easy to control manual focus in run and gun style (shoulder mount)
- no need rig, just BM shoulder mount kit
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MishaEngel

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 4:28 pm

Michael Moore wrote:
Michael Odhiambo wrote:Yes


Please can argues moore?
For example i make here a PRO and CON list

BMPCC 6K PRO
- 6K resolution
- low light performance (dual ISO up for 25600)
- low price vs UMP G2
- small body, easy to stabilize with gimbal
- multiple power source: Canon LP E6, adapter to
NP F battery, V-mount/Anton Bauer

UMP G2 CONS
- 4.6K resolution
- poor low light performance (800 base ISO up to 3200)
- big price vs BMPCC 6K
- big body, very difficult to stabilize with gimbal
- power source: just heavy battery V-mount/ Anton Bauer


BMPCC 6K CONS
- 13 stops dynamic range
- slow motion performance: up 60 fps full sensor4K
/120 window
- no internal ND
- not broadcast style control
- very difficult to control manual focus in run and
gun style (shoulder mount)
- need rig for run and gun style

UMP G2 PRO
- 15 stops dynamic range
- slow motion performance: up to 120 full sensor 4.6K /300 window
- internal ND
- broadcast stylecontrol
- easy to control manual focus in run and gun style (shoulder mount)
- no need rig, just BM shoulder mount kit


In what kind of enviroment do you want to use the camera?
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Usual i use the camera for corporate movie or wedding events. Occasional i make few TV commercial. I hope to start make music movie, documentary movie and short movie.
Until now the projects its make in rush and require run and gun style.
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MishaEngel

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 5:44 pm

Michael Moore wrote:Usual i use the camera for corporate movie or wedding events. Occasional i make few TV commercial. I hope to start make music movie, documentary movie and short movie.
Until now the projects its make in rush and require run and gun style.


That is pretty divers.

Maybe you need both.

BMPCC 6k for the gimbal, high resolution(for true 4k RGB output) and lowlight.
UMPG2 when you need High DR, low Rolling shutter, build in ND, 12G-SDI, more XLR, ProRes 4444XQ, etc.

They both serve a market segment.

This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/Jsfilmz/videos knows an awful lot about the latest BMD camera's, check some of his video's for the cons and pros.
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Tim Kraemer

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Yes.
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MishaEngel

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 7:58 pm

Tim Kraemer wrote:Yes.


When you love rolling shutter, you might be right.
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timbutt2

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 8:16 pm

I’d choose the UMP G2 and am glad I bought one. It was a great upgrade from the UM4.6K for me. Truthfully I don’t really care about 6K resolution. Would I get s Pocket 6K? Yes, as a supplement camera to my UMP G2. But my G2 would still be my main A camera.

Pros for G2:
True Super 35mm Sensor Size
15-Stops of Dynamic Range
120 FPS at 4.6K (16:9); 150 FPS at 4.6K (2.4:1)
Faster Sensor Readout for Reduced Rolling Shutter
Internal ND (I love have that option)
Interchangeable Lens Mount (EF, PL, Nikon, & B4)
URSA Viewfinder compatible


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Note Suwanchote

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 8:43 pm

It depends on your needs. When I travelled to Thailand, I brought the 4.6K and in another instance, the UMP G1. The image quality was incredible but people took noticed, and carrying around that much gear (lens, batteries) was not fun. When I go again? Easily the Pocket (if it was a vacation).

There's greater flexibility with the G2's sensor (dynamic range, rolling shutter, color) and powering off designated port is easy. But the 6K/4K have the lowlight, size and price factor to consider.

I think it for their bracket, they hold the best values. But like others have said, what are your needs and use?

In a direct comparison in reference to image quality—barring lowlight—then the G2 holds the crown. For some the Pocket can be A cam. If you have a G2 then the Pocket definitely compliments very well as a B cam.
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 9:09 pm

Exactly how I feel about the URSA Mini 4.6K PL shooting ISO 400-800 and the BMPCC4K mFT, especially so with the Metabones SpeedBooster for BMPCC4K PL adapter. That combination gives my B camera a real 3 stop advantage shooting ISO 1250-3200 over my A camera and is the go-to solution for lowlight situations.


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Stephen Fitzgerald

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 9:55 pm

6k resolution, hmm, what client of mine is asking for that?

I think resolution is fine, but to chase after it, nah. 4.6k is more than enough.
The UMP is soooooo killer, I’ll take it over what isn’t basically a cute stat sheet anyday.

Dynamic range over resolution is what I prefer anyways.
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MishaEngel

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 10:00 pm

Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:6k resolution, hmm, what client of mine is asking for that?

I think resolution is fine, but to chase after it, nah. 4.6k is more than enough.
The UMP is soooooo killer, I’ll take it over what isn’t basically a cute stat sheet anyday.

Dynamic range over resolution is what I prefer anyways.


It's 6k (B)RAW, not 6k RGB, like the pixels on your screen or the cinema.
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 10:04 pm

Yes, the UMP G2 +BMPCC 6K could be a great combo because are very similar too. But become one expensive combo A+B camera for me.

The BMPCC 6K and UMP G2 have few same value:
- Super 35 mm Sensor
- BRAW 12 bit, Pro Res 10 bit
- Same color sience v4
- Same storage: CFast, SD UHSII card, SSD via USB C

The BMPCC 6K and UMP G2 have few same lack:
- no IBIS
- no continues autofocus
- not so good for run and gun
- few and very expensive servo cinema zoom lens option under 5000 $ (just Canon 18-80/70-200) or parfocal lens
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MishaEngel

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 11, 2019 10:49 pm

The C200 might be the better camera for you.
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Valentin Remy

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 10:20 am

Michael Moore wrote:Hi! I own a UM 4K with full accesories: BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM V-lock battery plate, 1 V-mount battery, Canon 24-70 f2.8 II, Canon 70-200 f2.8 II, Sigma 18-35 f.18, 2 Cfast Lexar 128 GB 3400x , 2 Cfast Transcend 128GB.
Few day ago i want to buy UMP G2. After the BMPCC 6K announcement i asking you: worth to buy UMP G2 or BMPCC 6K?


Depends on your needs... Do you travel a lot and need portability, etc...
Wait for the reviews, compare the image quality, don't rush your purchase ^^
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John Brawley

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 12:57 pm

If you already own the 4k Ursa then the 6k will probably feel the same in terms of look because they both have similar dynamic range.

The only upside compared to a G2 is a bit more resolution and better super low light performance.

The G2 will feel more like a bigger leap forward in terms of image to you because it has a lot more dynamic range. To me that’s the most important thing in image fidelity.

High dynamic range and high bit depth.

Resolution is seductive but plenty of great photography has happened on the very low resolution Alexa because it looks great. It looks great because it has very high dynamic range and high bit depth.

Low iso is seductive but if you’re shooting narrative drama most of your work should be possiblento do at 800-1600.

If you’re making a living I think the G2 makes more sense to get as your main camera and a P6k or P4k is a great B camera for later.

Fo
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London UK
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 1:11 pm

They are meant for two purposes. For what you are doing, the G2 with 15 stops, and effort, but if it had lower light it would be better. The pocket 6k, if it had 15 stops it would be suitable. Trying to get low light shots in the after party is where the pocket can come in. I could get out on the dance floor with the shoulder mount and get some good stuff, but you wouldn't see much of what was happening. But if you had a camera for low lit situations that would let people enjoy it more. These low lit situations you won't need as much latitude. So, yes, two cams, even if the second one for low light is a lot cheaper then the pocket.

This is the issue, BM has not added a few stops lower light to the G2 or a few stops high latitude to the Pocket 6k, so neither camera covers it. However, G2 with light control is worth looking at.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 1:28 pm

Actually, I have a great solution. BM should offer a swappable imager on the Mini and or pocket, you can then swap between by rotation (oh, if it only was the 1st of April before NAB :) ). A tiltable optical path even. Offering both might increase over g2 price by a few hundred. You can then choose which for the scene at the moment. Actually, a electro optical mirror can direct light to a second sensor below the lens mount (or other direction) rotated for orientation to slim down the mirror flange requirement and slip the reflected image through a narrower gap. You then get two complementary imagers, say a cheap low light 10 stop+ and the 4.6k+, with color filter misalignment, you can get two colours per pixel. I know what Grant is thinking reading this.
Advertise it as some sort of new beaut thing. However, to get a cheap second sensor it would probably be m43rds 4k.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Que Thompson

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 4:49 pm

Do they have the same sensor?

I don't think the Red Gemini is a Red Dragon killer. It's different. The Pocket 6k kills the idea of the G2 for people who are chasing resolution, price point, etc. I'm think the image of the G2 will still be more organic that the Pocket 6k, but we'll see.

I think I'd rather have 2 Pocket 4k than 1 Pocket 6k. Seriously, people can barely handle RAW 4k much less 6k. They need to start factoring in the minimum $2500 that will be spent on a new computer to edit 6k RAW. The resolution debate is so draining so I'll stay away from it, but come on guys. 6k?! The only benefit is to actually use it! Using it will most likely require a new computer. I have m.2 ssds (3500 MB/s Read) installed on my computer, 64gb of ram, i7 processor, it still struggles with 4k + effects.

Also, some people just want to show up with a big camera to be taken more seriously. I think it comes down to the sensor though. Today, I can point out a UMP frame from any other BM Camera frame with ease.
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 12, 2019 9:35 pm

The perfect camera dont exist, not just from BM, from all manufacturer Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Nikon, etc. The perfect camera for me is when cover all my client needs. Unfortunately my clients until now want shooting rush and low prices. I dont know if they could see the difference between 12 bit and 10 bit, maybe even 8 bit. Yours clients could say: "that its a 12 bit pictures"?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 12:48 am

Que Thompson wrote:Do they have the same sensor?

I don't think the Red Gemini is a Red Dragon killer. It's different. The Pocket 6k kills the idea of the G2 for people who are chasing resolution, price point, etc. I'm think the image of the G2 will still be more organic that the Pocket 6k, but we'll see.

I think I'd rather have 2 Pocket 4k than 1 Pocket 6k. Seriously, people can barely handle RAW 4k much less 6k. They need to start factoring in the minimum $2500 that will be spent on a new computer to edit 6k RAW. The resolution debate is so draining so I'll stay away from it, but come on guys. 6k?! The only benefit is to actually use it! Using it will most likely require a new computer. I have m.2 ssds (3500 MB/s Read) installed on my computer, 64gb of ram, i7 processor, it still struggles with 4k + effects.

Also, some people just want to show up with a big camera to be taken more seriously. I think it comes down to the sensor though. Today, I can point out a UMP frame from any other BM Camera frame with ease.


Yes, you are right, the pocket is too big.

Are you trying to use cdng instead of Braw? If not, then maybe you should explore a cheap GPU processing option they use now. Even Red is getting their laboursome 8k footage done that way realtime these days, and that's not braw. $2.5k for a computer is hard.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 12:59 am

Michael, appreciate the documentaries, so the following is probably not going be useful at that quality. We see in 7bit+, but stick it on a big screen you need separate 8 bit areas across the picture. So 12 bit plus comes in useful. But the extra bits are about precision in pushing the image around in post as well, to maintain better results. You can make video in 5 bits, but you don't see 5 bit cameras around, because you could do hardly anything with it. At 8 bits you hit the ceiling quick in post, at 10 bits better. But 12 bits were the optimum in standard dynamic range days. With HDR, you should look at maybe 16 bits or so to deliver a 12 bit HDR (10 bit for hdr delivery is the new 8 bit).

Red 16 bit 17 stop 8k cameras are close enough to your perfect camera as far as these things go. 12 bit is just not it.
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 3:23 am

Wayne Steven wrote:You can make video in 5 bits, but you don't see 5 bit cameras around, because you could do hardly anything with it.


Just as a fun little aside, 5 bit would actual hold up a lot better than some people might think lol

A lot of PS1 and N64 games were 5-bits per channel with each color being packed into 16-bits (5-bits per channel + 1 bit alpha)

Image

And since this is a gif, it's actually just 256 colors out of the 32,768 colors that 5 bit per channel images can make.

In fact, the vast majority of textures in current video games are 16-bit color (5 bit red + 6 bit green + 5 bit blue) and 5 bit per channel and even 4 bit per channel texture formats still exist.

Here's an example of some pictures I got off google and converted to 5 bits per pixel.

Image
Image
Image

And just for fun, this is what that last image would look like at 4-bits per channel.

Image

That's a 1080p 4bpc image and it doesn't look gross.

And lastly, here's a 4K DCI image from BMPCC 4K converted to 16-bit (r5g6b5) color.

Image

Of course, I'm not saying that these bit-depths would be usable for editing or even for final delivery lol I'm just showing that lower bit-depth imaging has been around on computers for awhile and you've likely seen it before without even realizing it
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Mark Grgurev

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 4:21 am

Que Thompson wrote:I think I'd rather have 2 Pocket 4k than 1 Pocket 6k. Seriously, people can barely handle RAW 4k much less 6k. They need to start factoring in the minimum $2500 that will be spent on a new computer to edit 6k RAW.


Not really. You can always edit and grade 4K/6K footage at a lower timeline resolution and then just change it back to 4K or 6K before rendering. BRAW was even made with a quarter resolution decoding mode just for that purpose.

Even with a 6K timeline, I was able to mess with the files BMD provided just fine with my i7-5820K, GTX 1070, and 32 GB of memory.

If you buy a Ryzen 3800X, Radeon VII, 32 GB of memory and Seasonic Titanium 750W power supply it would only set you back $1450 and that would easily outperform my PC and you could definitely go cheaper if you needed to.
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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 5:49 am

Michael Moore wrote:Few day ago i want to buy UMP G2. After the BMPCC 6K announcement i asking you: worth to buy UMP G2 or BMPCC 6K?


I own a G2. Don't own a 6K but have two on order.

Ursa G2 has four times the dynamic range of the 6K. That's 15 stops vs 13.

It has two full size XLR outputs which are great with standard XLR cables. You have a single mini with the 6K.

The combination of viewfinder and display are great for cross referencing.

With V-Mount on the G2 the battery life is great plus you have a lot of flexibility. I assume the 6K is shorter unless you get the grip battery.

The G2 mic mount (optional extra) accomodates a very high quality Senheiser condenser mic on mine with shock mount for mobile work which gives me hyper corodoid and high directionality. You'd need some kind of special cage for the 6K.

The G2 has a lot of redundant buttons that are tactile and easy to find or reach. Very helpful.

The G2 build is very solid. Feels like hard metal that can take a knock. I was workign with it in vegas crowds on the sidewalk over the weekend and the crowds were obnoxious as I was carrying the camera on the handle through the crowd trying to get to Planet Hollywood for a shoot on a deadline. Got knocked a few times but I wasn't worried.

The G2 has SDI while I think the 6K has a full size HDMI. SDI is awesome. Cables are cheap and the connector is bulletproof. HDMI is consumer and I have disconnect issues.

I love my G2 but I do have two 6K's on order. I think they'll be great for B cameras, or high risk shoots and possible drone work. The main thing with the G2 is the dynamic range of 15 stops. For serious film work that really does matter a lot and it is able to compete with Alexa, Red and Sony Venice at a fraction of the price with the Resolve workflow which is killer. I'm a huge fan of the G2.

Mark.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 4:30 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:You can make video in 5 bits, but you don't see 5 bit cameras around, because you could do hardly anything with it.


Just as a fun little aside, 5 bit would actual hold up a lot better than some people might think lol

A lot of PS1 and N64 games were 5-bits per channel with each color being packed into 16-bits (5-bits per channel + 1 bit alpha)

Image

And since this is a gif, it's actually just 256 colors out of the 32,768 colors that 5 bit per channel images can make.

In fact, the vast majority of textures in current video games are 16-bit color (5 bit red + 6 bit green + 5 bit blue) and 5 bit per channel and even 4 bit per channel texture formats still exist.

Here's an example of some pictures I got off google and converted to 5 bits per pixel.

Image
Image
Image

And just for fun, this is what that last image would look like at 4-bits per channel.

Image

That's a 1080p 4bpc image and it doesn't look gross.

And lastly, here's a 4K DCI image from BMPCC 4K converted to 16-bit (r5g6b5) color.

Image

Of course, I'm not saying that these bit-depths would be usable for editing or even for final delivery lol I'm just showing that lower bit-depth imaging has been around on computers for awhile and you've likely seen it before without even realizing it


The banding and gleam, are often a give away. I've been exposed to computer graphics since the 1970's, and seen a number of things. Indeed grading this stuff is an issue, but delivery not as much. The original RCA video disc system used 15 bit video. The look if that system, with it's colored bordered windows, still looks refreshing.

I've tried to work out some texture like video compression techniques myself.

Using color look up tables 15 bit or 8 bit total can give very good results. The Amiga had a technique to shift a primary each pixel, in something like 6 bits per pixel. 12 bits looked surprisingly nice, except limited. Yep, those were the days, along with 0.128k audio cassette video camera in 4 bits I think.
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timbutt2

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 8:59 pm

Thought of another plus for the G2: ProRes 444 & 444 XQ. The Pocket 4K & 6K can only go as high as ProRes 422 HQ.


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Que Thompson

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Mark Grgurev wrote:Not really. You can always edit and grade 4K/6K footage at a lower timeline resolution and then just change it back to 4K or 6K before rendering. BRAW was even made with a quarter resolution decoding mode just for that purpose.

Even with a 6K timeline, I was able to mess with the files BMD provided just fine with my i7-5820K, GTX 1070, and 32 GB of memory.

If you buy a Ryzen 3800X, Radeon VII, 32 GB of memory and Seasonic Titanium 750W power supply it would only set you back $1450 and that would easily outperform my PC and you could definitely go cheaper if you needed to.


Maybe, I'll try this but it's still pulling the data from the original file. Using a lesser decoding resolution is probably a better solution. I have an i7, 64gb of ram, 4gb video card, two m.2 hard drives and a 600mb R/W SSD drive for backup. Maybe my timeline is set to full resolution though, I'll check.
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Que Thompson

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 9:29 pm

Remember the days when you took the time to get to know a camera? :lol:

You could really squeeze out all it's potential. These days you have for a year and just get a new one. We're talking about hollywood cinema quality cameras here, lol. This one has 1.4k more pixels (or whatever) I'm getting that one! I'll say it again... The art is getting lost in the technology.
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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostTue Aug 13, 2019 10:43 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:The banding and gleam, are often a give away. I've been exposed to computer graphics since the 1970's, and seen a number of things. Indeed grading this stuff is an issue, but delivery not as much. The original RCA video disc system used 15 bit video. The look if that system, with it's colored bordered windows, still looks refreshing.

I've tried to work out some texture like video compression techniques myself.

Using color look up tables 15 bit or 8 bit total can give very good results. The Amiga had a technique to shift a primary each pixel, in something like 6 bits per pixel. 12 bits looked surprisingly nice, except limited. Yep, those were the days, along with 0.128k audio cassette video camera in 4 bits I think.



Yeah.. but Amiga was more like the 1980s if my memory recall correctly. Graphics at 24 bits was actually used at the time.

Like the famous “one frame movie” at 4096x4096, 24bit. Made in 1983

Image

Back to the topic. The p6k seem undoubtedly like a good camera. Yeah, the G2 has more professional features. Especially sdi for live production, internal Nd filters and full-size xlr. It can also use the very capable ursa viewfinder, and be easily used as a shoulder camera for interviews and long takes. You can spec all these things on the P6k. Still, that means a bunch of random components all around it, making it more fragile in a hostile environment where brake downs sometimes is not an option. I’m not saying the p6k can’t work in the same arena as g1 or g2, but I believe the later is a better option in some cases. But on the flip side. For someone primary want to make narratives.. i think maybe the p6k is good enough if not even better than the G2. P6k is maybe hard to fit it in a pocket, but surly easy to fit in a small bag on your back. It’s highly portable. It’s also highly stealthy like the p4k. I have been filming in very crowded environments and got very little attention from random people walking about. It’s also perfect in rural environments where you don’t want to drag a bigger camera. And you can always beef it up whenever you feel like. Finally, the p4k can make cinematic imagery at top class... so can p6k most likely.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 2:34 am

The UMP G2 and Pocket 4K/6K complement each other. I have the UMP G2 and 6K on order.
>>> UMP G2 to Pocket 6K ---> "You complete me!"
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 9:02 am

Hey OF, you know there is something a little bit about the pocket 6k. It just needed a little more to justify its price against a 4.6k. Like 16 stops, now that 6k at 50fps is said to be available (is that true?). But it feels like a $1995 camera to me, or $600-700 above the pocket 4k. The G2 didn't take the extra step to 16 stops or 6k+ either. A 4.6k 15 stop pocket, and a 6k+ 16 stop mini g2, would have been preferable. I know people say that the pocket is so incredible, but they are not really seeing the art.

I see washed out areas instead of well shaped with the string original colour in the sample video. They should work on the highlight recovery to work on colour recovery, there too, its notbwhat you want in a wedding video. I think Alexa software does that too.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 9:05 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Hey OF, you know there is something a little bit about the pocket 6k. It just needed a little more to justify its price against a 4.6k. Like 16 stops, now that 6k at 50fps is said to be available (is that true?). But it feels like a $1995 camera to me, or $600-700 above the pocket 4k. The G2 didn't take the extra step to 16 stops or 6k+ either.


I’m not going to defend or justify BM pricing on the P6K, but I will say this. They have the right to price it however they like. If it’s too high, then we don’t buy. We will soon see if they priced it right for the competitive marked. Would I like it cheaper? ofcoruse i would. Every potential buyer would.


A 4.6k 15 stop pocket, and a 6k+ 16 stop mini g2, would have been preferable. I know people say that the pocket is so incredible, but they are not really seeing the art.


I know pretty much by now… We are a horde of people loving the P4K. I believe you also know this, if you have been reading various claims on the internet or talked with people. You might be right about all of us not seeing the art and the P4K/P6K being obsolete. It’s possible, but it’s also possible you just happen to be dead wrong.

IMO. The P4K can make cinematic movies, I’m convinced, and I’m fine with you believing otherwise. We look at it subjectively and many times we should. But sometimes we should be more of the objective and tolerant type. Especially when you don’t know all the details. Stating the P4K not being good enough for a movie is almost amusing to me. I find it hard to take seriously, and it might happen to be that you just trolling about. A bit similar to some threads now talking about wrong and right colour correction… I don’t believe in wrong or right colour correction, from an artistic perspective. Sitting in front of your TV watching a random movie and saying “that’s wrong colour space!”… that’s dumb. We can argue about what looks good or not, that’s fine. You should also recognise your own mistake if the client tells you “that’s not the look we agreed upon” that could be lack of skill. There are endless of ways to make different looks with the P4K (and presumable P6K which I haven’t used). I strive to not be short minded, every day. Its easy to get trapped believing you got the almighty truth. Maybe its human, but we should fight it to become better at what we do.
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Donnell Henry

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostWed Aug 14, 2019 9:49 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Hey OF, you know there is something a little bit about the pocket 6k. It just needed a little more to justify its price against a 4.6k. Like 16 stops, now that 6k at 50fps is said to be available (is that true?). But it feels like a $1995 camera to me, or $600-700 above the pocket 4k. The G2 didn't take the extra step to 16 stops or 6k+ either.


I’m not going to defend or justify BM pricing on the P6K, but I will say this. They have the right to price it however they like. If it’s too high, then we don’t buy. We will soon see if they priced it right for the competitive marked. Would I like it cheaper? ofcoruse i would. Every potential buyer would.


A 4.6k 15 stop pocket, and a 6k+ 16 stop mini g2, would have been preferable. I know people say that the pocket is so incredible, but they are not really seeing the art.


I know pretty much by now… We are a horde of people loving the P4K. I believe you also know this, if you have been reading various claims on the internet or talked with people. You might be right about all of us not seeing the art and the P4K/P6K being obsolete. It’s possible, but it’s also possible you just happen to be dead wrong.

IMO. The P4K can make cinematic movies, I’m convinced, and I’m fine with you believing otherwise. We look at it subjectively and many times we should. But sometimes we should be more of the objective and tolerant type. Especially when you don’t know all the details. Stating the P4K not being good enough for a movie is almost amusing to me. I find it hard to take seriously, and it might happen to be that you just trolling about. A bit similar to some threads now talking about wrong and right colour correction… I don’t believe in wrong or right colour correction, from an artistic perspective. Sitting in front of your TV watching a random movie and saying “that’s wrong colour space!”… that’s dumb. We can argue about what looks good or not, that’s fine. You should also recognise your own mistake if the client tells you “that’s not the look we agreed upon” that could be lack of skill. There are endless of ways to make different looks with the P4K (and presumable P6K which I haven’t used). I strive to not be short minded, every day. Its easy to get trapped believing you got the almighty truth. Maybe its human, but we should fight it to become better at what we do.


Preach it brother!!!
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 2:17 pm

The big problem of UMP G2 vs BMPCC 6K in my opinion is the poor low light, with 3200 ISO noisy. But the advantage of UMP G2 vs BMPCC 6K is that at all ISO range keep it 15 stops dynamic range, BMPCC 6K dot keep it 13 stops dynamic range at all ISO range.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 pm

Michael Moore wrote:The big problem of UMP G2 vs BMPCC 6K in my opinion is the poor low light, with 3200 ISO noisy. But the advantage of UMP G2 vs BMPCC 6K is that at all ISO range keep it 15 stops dynamic range, BMPCC 6K dot keep it 13 stops dynamic range at all ISO range.


There is that saying, "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Both cameras have compromises, but both are fantastic. Either one would be an excellent choice even if it's not perfect. If you're not in a rush, you could wait another year and see what BMD comes out with next, which might be a better solution for you. In the meantime, your current Ursa is still a great camera and you could keep using it unless you are really feeling constrained by its low-light performance.

There's also something to be said with sticking with the same camera for a long time so you really get to know it, know how to get the best out of it and work within its limitations.
Resolve 15, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 3:59 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Hey OF, you know there is something a little bit about the pocket 6k. It just needed a little more to justify its price against a 4.6k. Like 16 stops, now that 6k at 50fps is said to be available (is that true?). But it feels like a $1995 camera to me, or $600-700 above the pocket 4k. The G2 didn't take the extra step to 16 stops or 6k+ either.


I’m not going to defend or justify BM pricing on the P6K, but I will say this. They have the right to price it however they like. If it’s too high, then we don’t buy. We will soon see if they priced it right for the competitive marked. Would I like it cheaper? ofcoruse i would. Every potential buyer would.


A 4.6k 15 stop pocket, and a 6k+ 16 stop mini g2, would have been preferable. I know people say that the pocket is so incredible, but they are not really seeing the art.


I know pretty much by now… We are a horde of people loving the P4K. I believe you also know this, if you have been reading various claims on the internet or talked with people. You might be right about all of us not seeing the art and the P4K/P6K being obsolete. It’s possible, but it’s also possible you just happen to be dead wrong.

IMO. The P4K can make cinematic movies, I’m convinced, and I’m fine with you believing otherwise. We look at it subjectively and many times we should. But sometimes we should be more of the objective and tolerant type. Especially when you don’t know all the details. Stating the P4K not being good enough for a movie is almost amusing to me. I find it hard to take seriously, and it might happen to be that you just trolling about. A bit similar to some threads now talking about wrong and right colour correction… I don’t believe in wrong or right colour correction, from an artistic perspective. Sitting in front of your TV watching a random movie and saying “that’s wrong colour space!”… that’s dumb. We can argue about what looks good or not, that’s fine. You should also recognise your own mistake if the client tells you “that’s not the look we agreed upon” that could be lack of skill. There are endless of ways to make different looks with the P4K (and presumable P6K which I haven’t used). I strive to not be short minded, every day. Its easy to get trapped believing you got the almighty truth. Maybe its human, but we should fight it to become better at what we do.



Sorry, who says it wasn't good enough for a movie? I'm being real objective, and looking at the long term market and marketability, of Quality. Not subjective as fans. Like, I don't insist on something that doesn't fit, or tick all the boxes, as if it does, like people who pipe up in my comments and have to be discussed with as their wrong minded stuff has to be the center of attention every time I say something good. Yes.

So, having some knowledge I comment from the technology, design, business and marketing sides. All it requires, is for a competitor to put in the effort, and fans here would be leaving BM. So, I Care. I say with good measure, what can credibly be done, and should credibly be done, to fend off the inevitable. To circumnavigate the competition before they are even here, and you guys get better tech at the sane time. I've been doing it successfully with companies for 36 years, and even Google.

Now, simple fact. 15 stop+ is more quality, because it is easier, because it is more workable, and looks better. It is old tech, and why shouldn't we get it by now. Sure they can price their cameras as they want, but it is about what would be the more effective price. If zcam sold 10-20k cameras, and decided they could then sell their camera at half the price and get 100k sales to cover it.. What happens there? Zcam is able to tap into the Chinese market, and the studio network, and easily drop 10k-20k sales, and get 100k (except the firm factor and eng features need to be better). So, what happens here then? It's a possibility, and a drastic one. Now, I advocated for eng features here years bsvk, and they explored that (thank you). I have advocated for stills features and they seem to be interested in that. That is a bingo area, and can help whatever zcam does. I also advocated zcam use nvidia hardware to them, amr they did. Advocated a lot of things to camera manufacturers which they did for a much better ranfebit choices for you to choose from, and greater business success for various manufacturers (I advocated for an Alexa like look and dynamic range, as a minimum, and that's what we got). So stand aside, and let's see what happens in the future Oyvind! I'm sure some things will stick, and we will have deadly 4k-8k micro with 14+ stops dynamic range (unfortunately cheap Sony sensors usually top out at 10-12 bits top mode, rather than 14-16 higher quality bits, but that's whats available there).
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 9:41 pm

If this sample about BMPCC 4K continuous autofocus its real, and will be available just to BMPCC 4K, then BMPCC 4K could kill UMP G2 and BMPCC 6K.
https://www.eoshd.com/2019/07/exclusive-blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k-gets-time-of-flight-autofocus-with-prototype-add-on/
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 7:03 am

Steve, I clearly wrote “cinematic movie”. “Cinematic” because you believe, or claim, that 13 stop is not good enough. You have been advocating this in many threads and even told us that the p4k/p6k is not worth buying because of these measly 13stops. Remember the credit card camera ?

You tell us that your quest is to push the companies that make the technology. Sounds like I almost should give you a huge thanks for putting out ideas that all these companies have followed, thus given us better cameras. Guys like me “fan boys” don’t get it and make little pressure on these companies. Slowing down the technical advancement so to speak. Well guess what, that’s wrong, we are fighting the same cause. We are just angle it differently and strive for the same outcome. I praise the product where it deliver. My criticism is build upon usage where I see room for improvement. Like the 120fps braw at 1080p, which I’m not happy with. Or the fact that Braw is a bit on the soft side compared to cDNG, which I have stated that I’m confident that BM will do something about in the future. I expect it, and bring it up when I have the chance. Give a little, take a little.

If you want to be taken serious by these companies you have to give them Ironman arguments that is eatable. For all I know you may have big influence, as you claim, on all these companies. I doubt it, but it’s possible for all I know. Many of your ideas are interesting and I like to read about them, even though you sometimes maybe get a bit carried away ;). I agree with you that we have to be critical to the tech hitting the streets, and make demands. And believe it or not, most people in this forum are critical. Let’s play on the same team rather than put on straw man arguments.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 9:07 am

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:Steve, I clearly wrote “cinematic movie”. “Cinematic” because you believe, or claim, that 13 stop is not good enough. You have been advocating this in many threads and even told us that the p4k/p6k is not worth buying because of these measly 13stops. Remember the credit card camera ?


Who said it wasn't good enough, you guys imagine these things. Weigh up and balance what is being said bro. You can film with a 3 stop camera like the old days, but it's going cost you, and your talent might not like the lighting (but let's assume sensitivity). The higher latitude just makes things more flexible and easier, starting at better quality. Run and gun, that's great, otherwise you might have tonbe more cinematic the less latitude it has. Why argue basic truth, does it help anybody?

It is less with buying, again, you are imaging it us not worth buying. When it is less with buying, the competition might be more worth buying then when otherwise. So, we are talking about free technology quality advantage which you don't want. It's actually a non pixel peeping picture levels quality advantage, and workflow advantage. It's something done over 27 stops with strong ideal color for many years from 1970's technology (not the credit card version). Out of patent, and we don't even use it. It's mad. Even Sony has some basic stuff on their consumer sensors. Anyway, see my HDR programmability thread for pocket, there is some good discussion there about getting extra stops out of the pocket, which I can see there on latitude tests, but is often ignored. So, you are going from usable of less than 12 stops according to these reviewers, to 14 stops likely. The 15th stop tab is just bad. But, with a mod to the camera, maybe 15 usable stops is doable (electric and cooling mods). However, while the noisy 14th stop is not that good for quality production, it is really good for run and gun, because it is there, and noise is not so offensive.

Really, given noise, a 17 stop sensor spec is desirable, to sacrifice the lower two stops. The mini 4.6k is only a stop ahead on those charts. The examples linked to there are actually very similar, despite different technology, and claims. The GH5s is the standout lower latitude (maybe from processing).

Yes, you should be thankful. No you are coming along to chime in and resist positive advancements. Yes, I did say that BM could and hopefully would improve Braw in these ways as well. So little point in using that one. You have a funny version of being on the :same side'. I don't. Look and you will see.

You have made a series of "strawman arguments". If you knew about design, it's expansive to come in order to produce the most effective and simple solutions, to hide, negotiate away, circumnavigate, answer and solve the complex problems. Just to write for 6 hours I might have to contemplate hundreds of vectors of problems even inna minute. The mind is contemplating thousands subconsciously. You have to weigh up and balance these things to design. I don't suspect you know about this, not many engineers and designers would. So, everything is Nuanced. On the other hand, "concrete arguments" are often simplistic opinions on reality advocated by people affected by the imposter syndrome (look it up, people who believe they know/are expert in things, broadly, and concretely, but unaware of how little they know or are skilled at. Where as the more real experts know, the note they realise they don't know everything and the more nuanced and philosophical elements they include to address the unkown). Where what I'm saying is am actual piece of concrete which connects to other pieces in life, the nature of how life works. You might think the rough unconnected edges are concrete, but that's how you address the exceptions to knowledge outside of what you actually know (the patchy rough piece of central concrete with lattice of real knowledge). If you think that is too complex, think about it. I have been where you are and now am somewhere much better, maybe not as secure, but note real.

Now, you bet you. I get fan mail from engineers, and yes I have contributed hundreds of things adopted by industry after I contributed them. You can't say that is not serious. But you should see rather than whine, I shouldn't have to tell you any of this. But if I don't, the positive things said get swept under the carpet, and progress hampered. Its not about you or me, it's about that........
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 9:42 am

Now, I'm backing BM, at the moment. Because they have dine the better thing by the industry and offered better prices, despite not being a Chinese company, and the market segment support is better. Zcam, I'm hoping for, but should be cheaper etc. But neither is doing it the best possible way. There are extra that can be done in the price bracket. Obviously Zcam is in a good DR range, the price is double what I would expect based on coat and competitive market penetration. But they are a small early company, and these sort of things will take time to build numbers (maybe in obe or two years time, maybe a very ling time, or never. The Pocket 6k was a good stub in the nose, and even if you matched the price with the E2 6k, you still git to rib it, and the pocket works without rig in hand well. So $1995 is a better price, which they probably shouldn't do, as they are small and geared up for the old price).

Now, BM, yes it just needs a bit more here and there to suite more situations. Micro/Nano 4k-8k -15stop, braw 4:1-6:1+ (and still cameras features mode), is sellable at half the zcam price for a broad range of use (action/POV/crash/filming/machine vision/security). Pocket, with Braw premium detail fix, hdmi2+, WiFi, and 16stops+ etc, and still camera features mode. Mini with 17 stops+ 6k+, Braw premium, more Sony like prosumer/eng functions and buttons.

With the extra still cameras software features, on a pro level, photo shops will stick them. At the moment there is an issue with stocking it, as its too difficult for normal people to use. However, it has desirable hardware, and the extra sales will allow BM to do more for less. As usual, the big threat out there, is somebody using cheap ASIC to make better more compact equivalent cameras for half to quarter the price. I've seen this happen in industry's over the decades. Firms committed to a higher cost or restricted technologies getting taken out by ones with cheaper and less restrictive equivalents, even better, because the larger firm couldn't adapt to match the new paradigm or reduce price to match because of the technology they use. If one listens to people in the know and to what is happening, then they learn these things. It is not about how successful a business is now, it's about how to be successful in the future.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 2:32 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
You can film with a 3 stop camera like the old days, but it's going cost you, and your talent might not like the lighting (but let's assume sensitivity). The higher latitude just makes things more flexible and easier, starting at better quality.


What you are saying is a given and not really relevant to discussion about P4K/P6K 13stops of DR. Nobody today choose to use a camera only capable of 3 stops. Point is. The P4K is more than capable to deliver a filmic image with its 13 stop DR. that’s it.


It is less with buying, again, you are imaging it us not worth buying. When it is less with buying, the competition might be more worth buying then when otherwise. So, we are talking about free technology quality advantage which you don't want. It's actually a non pixel peeping picture levels quality advantage, and workflow advantage. It's something done over 27 stops with strong ideal color for many years from 1970's technology (not the credit card version). Out of patent, and we don't even use it. It's mad.


Free technology? Even a simple cheap component has to be engineering into a finished product. Is it possible to choose better components? Sure there is, but at a cost. Why is it that none of these big companies use this marvelous tech you are talking about? Do you know something they don’t? I’m not talking about fictional sensors that is not invented. That’s obviously not an option.


Anyway, see my HDR programmability thread for pocket, there is some good discussion there about getting extra stops out of the pocket, which I can see there on latitude tests, but is often ignored. So, you are going from usable of less than 12 stops according to these reviewers, to 14 stops likely. The 15th stop tab is just bad. But, with a mod to the camera, maybe 15 usable stops is doable (electric and cooling mods). However, while the noisy 14th stop is not that good for quality production, it is really good for run and gun, because it is there, and noise is not so offensive.


Celluloid film contained an awful lot of noise compared to todays digital cameras. Some like grain, some don’t. The acceptable noise floor is obviously subjective and thus is the DR. Some can accept filmic looking noise by dragging out details in the low/mid range. I tend to do so, and nobody complains. Especially when you start with 4k and deliver 2k. And if really terrible, there is always noise reduction.

Yes, you should be thankful. No you are coming along to chime in and resist positive advancements. Yes, I did say that BM could and hopefully would improve Braw in these ways as well. So little point in using that one. You have a funny version of being on the :same side'. I don't. Look and you will see.


So let me get this straight. If BM comes out with a camera that deliver more than 15stops of DR.. You are the one to thank?

If you knew about design, it's expansive to come in order to produce the most effective and simple solutions, to hide, negotiate away, circumnavigate, answer and solve the complex problems. Just to write for 6 hours I might have to contemplate hundreds of vectors of problems even inna minute. The mind is contemplating thousands subconsciously. You have to weigh up and balance these things to design. I don't suspect you know about this, not many engineers and designers would.


What about free technology?

On the other hand, "concrete arguments" are often simplistic opinions on reality advocated by people affected by the imposter syndrome (look it up, people who believe they know/are expert in things, broadly, and concretely, but unaware of how little they know or are skilled at. Where as the more real experts know, the note they realise they don't know everything and the more nuanced and philosophical elements they include to address the unkown). Where what I'm saying is am actual piece of concrete which connects to other pieces in life, the nature of how life works. You might think the rough unconnected edges are concrete, but that's how you address the exceptions to knowledge outside of what you actually know (the patchy rough piece of central concrete with lattice of real knowledge). If you think that is too complex, think about it. I have been where you are and now am somewhere much better, maybe not as secure, but note real.


Ok I’m going to stop this, because it’s no point getting to personal. And I don’t want to walk this road. You obviously don’t know me and I don’t know you. In contradiction to what you are saying I do have the power to recognize my own mistakes. In many circumstances I need to accept/acknowledge it to the opposite part. Its natural and essential to learn by own mistakes. So let’s stop this nonsense and move on with the real discussion. Camera.


Now, you bet you. I get fan mail from engineers, and yes I have contributed hundreds of things adopted by industry after I contributed them. You can't say that is not serious. But you should see rather than whine, I shouldn't have to tell you any of this. But if I don't, the positive things said get swept under the carpet, and progress hampered. Its not about you or me, it's about that........


I want to believe you, but can’t without shred of proof. Please give one single reference of these hundreds of things you contributed. A solid evidence that is.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 3:08 pm

It's late. You are arguing. I'm leaving it for now. Don't waste your or my time please.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:It's late. You are arguing. I'm leaving it for now. Don't waste your or my time please.


Yes I think we can rest this. Let’s agree to disagree on some objectives. No point continuing.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 8:09 am

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:It's late. You are arguing. I'm leaving it for now. Don't waste your or my time please.


Yes I think we can rest this. Let’s agree to disagree on some objectives. No point continuing.


I don't agree with that. I simply don't have the time. I say something right, people challenge it, so I say something right in response and they challenge it, and this will usually go on for a week and a half to two weeks before they realise I was right and they were acting out of emotion. I don't have 6 hours a day to write explanations to people. It's a huge drain on me and forum life. It kills the point of writing something positive too.

What you may not realise is it not only takes me a long time, I'm also being checked out for a progressive brain disease and things are really hard along with the other issues. After somebody dented along the side of my car today with their vehicle and left it for me to find hobbling around sick from a turn, I finished my shopping and came home very sick, laying in bed groaning, weak, in pain, and out of it from the exertion, for half an hour or hour or so. Then I'm straight here contributing and answering you guys. Last night, I didn't want to answer at 1:30 am or more, which can take an hour or two. I got to sleep 4am the night before waking not well a lot. Now everything is a bit limited, and slow, and at my best I'm no longer as athletic or as ingenious. But I get to watch android, Google, apple, BM, red, the government, just waste their time making life difficult, but unable to do much about it.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 11:04 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
What you may not realise is it not only takes me a long time, I'm also being checked out for a progressive brain disease and things are really hard along with the other issues. After somebody dented along the side of my car today with their vehicle and left it for me to find hobbling around sick from a turn, I finished my shopping and came home very sick, laying in bed groaning, weak, in pain, and out of it from the exertion, for half an hour or hour or so. Then I'm straight here contributing and answering you guys. Last night, I didn't want to answer at 1:30 am or more, which can take an hour or two. I got to sleep 4am the night before waking not well a lot. Now everything is a bit limited, and slow, and at my best I'm no longer as athletic or as ingenious. But I get to watch android, Google, apple, BM, red, the government, just waste their time making life difficult, but unable to do much about it.


I’m sorry to hear that Steve, and sincerely hope things will get better soon. I agree we can discuss many of these topics, but I felt we where moving on a path where it became personal. I don’t want that, I want a healthy and mature discussion about a topic we love to discuss. And I believe you feel the same about that. Let’s focus on the gear from now.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 1:21 pm

Well, when somebody expresses an actual truth and repeatedly another person erroneously nocks the truth and consumes massive amounts of time not getting it because personally they don't want it, that is personal. I get offended because something is true and it's being disrespected, despite continuous civil explanation is another issue. However, if I'm wrong, and it is actually proven, sorry, that's life, and it's up to me to take the lesson and align myself to the truth. That's OK. I've worked on world leading complex and sophisticated stuff, and you realise how expansive the truth is. I'm on another thread where Andrew is testifying that 4:1 lossless is not currently doable, and I'm surprised by now, given technique advancements, it's not, and consider it as an error of poor sample (as well as poor compression technique, but we were talking about current compression technology instead). Maybe it is so in all cases, but the level of discussion requires somebody with better knowledge of the research technologies available than either Andrew or I have. But it will either cone down to the settings I suggest having been currently proven wrong or right on the current best test beds. Knowledge just spills into many directions, which is why its hard to be absolutely certain, until you have a positive or complete knowledge. But at this stage, it may well be that Andrew and I agree to disagree, and it looks either one way or another. Testing it out could take a lot of effort, unless somebody has developed a test bed of every codec and compression technique combination we can feed sample footage in. Would make an interesting university research web page (and super computer time). Also, an interesting way to maximise compression, get the supercomputer to identify the optimal techniques for each part of a frame, frames and footage, then stream those to file. The player then only has to choose those for playback quickly. Maybe Google YouTube just wet itself, and we can await 50mb-50GB decompressors. :)
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 1:39 pm

I just realised I have a old technique that would solve that problem.

Anyway, if you want to look at one of the many things I'm actually allowed to share, look at my definable looks options for different modes in the stills button thread. Just a thing which could mame life more versatile and easier, and sell cameras.

But let's be objective here. At the moment BM serves us OK, but one day Axiom will finish it's open source design, and Octopus and others their open Linux cameras, and manufacturers are welcome to produce even cheaper cameras using whatever free open source stuff they can get hold of. Then a lot more can get fine, and cheaper. These mechanism ideas can be incorporated. Also, in my HDR programmability thread, simple mechanisms (more possible, rather than known quantity for me) for noise removal, color correction, HDR, and 3D computational imaging, or pixel shift. Now, I remember them, and that's like today.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 8:10 pm

I believe we are pretty much on the right track here Steven. I agree in much of what you have been saying in your last posts. As yourself I get enjoyed when someone speak to me about a final truth when I know it’s not the case. But we don’t need to do that right now. Problem with “cinematic look” is that it’s subjective. Feeling ok or not with 13stops is also subjective. But it’s important to have an opinion of our own. And I think me and you see some things differently, but I’m also quite sure we can meet common ground in many topics. I have seen that from the past.
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