BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 9:04 pm

Guys, remember that this place is a Blackmagic official website forum. Our discoussion its watched by Blackmagic website moderator and i hope they talk about our needs and problems with BM engineers. So lets stop the words fight and lets go back to the topic question with argue: could be BMPCC 6K a UMP G2 killer?Why yes or not?
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Matt LaCorte

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 2:01 am

Just to chime in- absolutely not a G2 killer. 6k seems like a great camera but for real narrative work the ergonomics of the Ursa blow the pocket out of the water-dynamic range, interchangeable lens mounts, SDI out, internal ND. Both are great cameras but they fit in very different places

Also, honestly, how often do people (or clients) find themselves wanting 6k footage?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 4:50 am

But you still don't see what I'm saying. 13 stops or 3 stops you can make it cinematic with appropriate work in lighting sets costumes and makeup, to make things more refined. In deed, 12 stop to Alexa, is cinematic with right use. Its just that 16 stops is even better, easier, less costly production wise, as it looks closer to how we see, as more stops and bits past that allow us to change things more to set/extract the look from in the higher latitude and bits. Say we have 16 bits and 20 stops (new plans nic organic territory) then you can extract your 16 stops and 12 bit from inside there.

I think it works like this, as I observe. We see different looks and dynamic range in different scenes naturally, we are used to them. So, midday, mid to late afternoon, dusk, night etc. Our eyes accept these as natural, authentic. We breath and enjoy these often less than 17 stop scenes in understanding. So, 12 stop and Alexa fit is some of those less dynamic ranges, but Red Monstro fits in the range we can see (still you have to use it properly) and Panasonic will oversample latitude allowing for better post manipulation, professionalism. Now, I'm not saying BM should be 20 stop in a pocket, but 17 stops fills out the eyes natural range and 15 stops s close enough. Alexa is a bit below that, so looks as acceptably as soft after lit scene (not a correct analogy). We breath, it's nice.

So, you have been saying I don't think pocket is capable of cinematic scene. Keeping up with the times, I simply don't think it is cinematic enough. My pocket credit card camera produced a surreal creamy look (the original pocket on steroids). I know it goes 16 stops but font remember if at that time it went to 20 stops (post 20 stop technology now). We have had car crash cameras of diving great images years ago, this whole no everything must go slow as mud for years in the cinema camera space, so they can sell you higher priced mdeks, is unacceptable. We should have had artifact free HDR 10-15 years ago, as it was available.

Anyway, saying I don't think it is cinematic repeatedly when I have repeatedly explained I don't believe that, is just one example of what I'm talking about. My explanations are generally robust, the information to see that is there to examine. I don't expect them to be dismissed, dished, and repeatedly accused of them of being something else, on the basis the other wants to mistakenly represent the discussion as being about something it's not, pushing their angle and viewpoint (I'm talking more generally in this section, rather than just about this discussion). I'm loosing track of the conceptual thought network here, for the explanation, as I've been fighting off that violent not flu and other issues. So, there are other pieces and things involved in this I can't draw out (so not a complete explanation). So explaining a truth is worthy of proper reading and assessment before replying relevant to the context of understanding that.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 5:36 am

Michael Moore wrote:Guys, remember that this place is a Blackmagic official website forum. Our discoussion its watched by Blackmagic website moderator and i hope they talk about our needs and problems with BM engineers. So lets stop the words fight and lets go back to the topic question with argue: could be BMPCC 6K a UMP G2 killer?Why yes or not?



Michael as much as we enjoy your documentaries ( :) ). It is about pushing good ideas without getting into other things from other angles about which it was not. I push objective measurable scientifically valid facts, and a lot of experience, pulse and nuance to do with industry and markets. Unless somebody can objectively prove something is wrong in exactly how it was meant, people should respect that. An understanding of greater knowledge rather than unobjective wish. But, we have people here (I'm not looking at OF here) who see it as little mini wars, and attack the truth. You talk about only one thing and they attack it on the basis of another thing not being right, even though you never talk about that, then want to go on mini win loose war when you point out its not that. Problem is, if you don't point out the truth, they will just keep coming back stomping around. There are often n a handful of these people who do most post refutation (and even posting) on forums. There is a lot less posts by the few who objectively examine thing. It's unreal when you see them have their little mini wars with each other who they normally side with. You can have both being wrong and mistaken talking about things at odds to understanding what is going on. But, if you allow them to waste your time and get through to them, you might find they are more circumspect about stomping in spear in hand chanting in the future. I literally can't remember who is who all the time to keep track (and just get sick of it) but accept OF is not one of these. The occasional misunderstanding and disagreement is fine, but not those where it is often all the time, looking for a fight, to bully, on other's ground, as others try to do.

In the "context" of the above. If we had a progressive exchange of ideas here, imagine the progress that can be made in building design knowledge and features. Maybe not that we will all be the proverbial Aristotles, or such. But, it would something or other I've just lost track of :( so, it IS very important. The following is a few suggested solutions I've come up with (of a number more).

Reverse block, which you apply. Where the bully can no longer see your posts and quotes. Goodbye to those who always want to pick. You block them from seeing you, you use regular block not to see them, and live in Bliss.

Friendly and non friendly scores. You vote on a post friendly or unfriendly to an agree. You see peoples post and they are marked number of posts, and separate average friendly and unfriendly scores. You also have access to review the posts by score so you can say, oh this guy. A lot of useful statistics for the moderators and individual users out of that which can be used to with other functions and filtering.

OP re-edible subject start post. Giving OP the ability to boot people.

Trusted group post. Where people are invited or have to be in a user or for group to post. Others can submit questions that OP/group can address. This is good for experts only discussion group. Say you have a top cinematographers discussion group. Or if you have the cinematographers answering submitted questions. A lot of top people would avoid places like this because of people like the handful. This gives them a chance to have exclusive and even private discussions, with which BM staff could be part of, advancing the cameras beyond Alexa. With this, you can have sub groups where certain normal and reasonable forum members are invited in with the leaders. Anyway, that's my contribution towards 'moderation'.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Michael Moore

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 6:24 pm

I have low budget projects and all my clients want low prices and to do my job fast in run and gun style. I am wondering if BMPCC 6K could be for my business a UMP G2 killer. Because i have already from my UM 4K BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM V-lock battery plate, could be a intelligent investment to buy UMP G2. But the limitation is ISO range, just 3200 (noisy).BMPCC 4K and 6k is tempts me as well because they have good low light performance. Could give me a pro and cons advise?
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Oyvind Fiksdal

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 7:11 pm

Michael Moore wrote:I have low budget projects and all my clients want low prices and to do my job fast in run and gun style. I am wondering if BMPCC 6K could be for my business a UMP G2 killer. Because i have already from my UM 4K BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM V-lock battery plate, could be a intelligent investment to buy UMP G2. But the limitation is ISO range, just 3200 (noisy).BMPCC 4K and 6k is tempts me as well because they have good low light performance. Could give me a pro and cons advise?


I have used the p4k for run n gun, and it works really great. It’s also stealthy. Change batteries when you have the chance and keep several on. It works.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 10:46 pm

Michael. Depends on quality of delivery years you want to sell. BM really needs semi Pocket 4k low light ability, and higher bit depth, on mini pro for weddings. Those things get dim.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 10:47 pm

Stuff, it 17 stops of low noise dynamic range too.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostSun Aug 18, 2019 10:50 pm

Anyway, it really depends on your circumstances of filming and the circumstances of delivery quality. So, like how long is a piece of string question, it depends on your own circumstances.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Tyler Edwards

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 19, 2019 2:39 am

Michael Moore wrote:I have low budget projects and all my clients want low prices and to do my job fast in run and gun style. I am wondering if BMPCC 6K could be for my business a UMP G2 killer. Because i have already from my UM 4K BM viewfinder, BM shoulder mount, BM V-lock battery plate, could be a intelligent investment to buy UMP G2. But the limitation is ISO range, just 3200 (noisy).BMPCC 4K and 6k is tempts me as well because they have good low light performance. Could give me a pro and cons advise?


Hard to say since you know you’re shooting style/workflow best, but here’s what I’ve put together for my decision making. Having owned UM4K (sold now) and BMPCC4K that are relevant to this convo, here’s my input.

TLDR; if dynamic range and frame rates are most important to tell the story—UMP. If resolution and lowlight are priority—Pocket cam 6K. If budget is the biggest concern, pocket 4K (still exceptional image).

UMP G2
Pros:
-Built in NDs
-More frame rate options
-More ProRes flavors if you’re not working with BRaw
-Higher dynamic range
-Better ergonomics with VF/shoulder mount (this is more subjective and personal preference obviously)
-Full size xlr (x2)
-Rolling shutter is pretty much non-existent

Cons (compared to pocket cam)
-Price (relative to pocket cams)
-weight fully rigged out
-less conspicuous than pocket cams
-less resolution than the 6K (if that matters to you)
-More expensive gimbals needed if gimbal work is required

Pocket cams
Pros:
-Still great image. Don’t know why people complain about 13 stops of dynamic range. It’s plenty and I’ve never felt limited by it.
-Great in low light (not to be confused with no light). I use the 4K at weddings all the time with very poor lighting and it looks great.
-recording to SD cards. Not sure on the specifics on the 6K, but on the 4K, I can do 4K 12:1 raw continuous on SanDisk Extreme Pro SD cards. Remarkable in my opinion.
-very discreet. Doesn’t bring a lot of attention in crowded areas
-DCI 4K (S35 FOV with speedbooster) on 4K model and 5.7K DCI on 6K model which will downsample to 4K nicely.
-Rigging. This is a pro and con. I like small cameras because they can be rigged up to be as needed or stripped down for discreet shooting. On the other hand, it’s a bunch of extra bits and pieces to keep up with.
-Can be run on smaller gimbals (if that’s your thing) like the Ronin-S

Cons
-battery life
-the port covers. I hate them. Even worse with a cage.
-rigging (see above)
-fixed screen on back. The variable one on the Ursa is very handy. Also worthless in bright daylight
-lack of higher frame rates (if that’s your thing. 60p is sufficient to me)
-hdmi only. SDI would’ve been great on the 6K instead of hdmi
-rolling shutter is more pronounced than UMP
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rick.lang

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BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 19, 2019 5:03 am

Good summary, Tyler. Fortunately the port covers on the BMPCC4K are easily removed or replaced if necessary. I’m not sure where I put mine as I don’t intend to reinsert them.


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Wayne Steven

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 19, 2019 8:24 am

Just an update for Oyvind, concerning previous discussion. The diagnosis is in, moderate white matter disease. A lot worse than I thought, lot of progression in last 3 years. Needed to start slowing treatment years ago. Most of my intellectual skill gone. Have a good night.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Tyler Edwards

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 19, 2019 12:22 pm

rick.lang wrote:Good summary, Tyler. Fortunately the port covers on the BMPCC4K are easily removed or replaced if necessary. I’m not sure where I put mine as I don’t intend to reinsert them.


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Good point, Rick. I still see value in keeping them on for their intended use when covering the ports, so I haven’t been bold enough to remove them yet haha. :lol:
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rick.lang

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Re: BMPCC 6K is a UMP G2 killer?

PostMon Aug 19, 2019 1:22 pm

When I added my Shape cage, they prevented access to the ports so off they came.


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