Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

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tatito

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Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostMon Mar 04, 2019 1:46 pm

When scanning 16 mm footage with our Cintel Scanner 2 one has to choose the according format for transport control. In combination with the transport control also the resolution changes - in case of 16 mm standard to 1581x1154.

We would like to make a difference: Transport control should switch to 16 mm, but the resolution should be the native resolution of the scanner, 4096x3072.

May I ask if somebdody of you experts knows how we can manage to realize this?

Assuming that the SDK should allow such differentiation I would be happy to get your hint how to concretely realize the described goal.


Thank you for your attention,

Herbert
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RayThornback

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostWed Mar 06, 2019 1:50 pm

I'd also be very interested in this.
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tatito

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Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution - answer by Blackmagic

PostTue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 am

Just to keep you posted I here let you know of the reply that I have recieved by Blackmagic:

"This type of request is not currently possible with the existing SDK. I’ve asked the team to add this as a request to the future development list, however, we cannot guarantee that this will be included in future releases. It’s something that would need to be agreed and signed off by the Cintel Product Manager based on overall demand."
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RayThornback

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostThu Mar 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Thank you Herbert. We'd definitely purchase if they made this possible.
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tatito

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Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution - support request

PostTue Mar 26, 2019 6:01 am

Juts to keep you posted I here send the latest correspondecne with Blackmagic. I worte:

"We are going to develop a solution for the unsatisfying 16mm resolution of our Cintel Scanner 2. To reach this goal it would be good to learn about the technical built of the optical part of the scanner. If you can provide us with the technical drawing of the optical system of Cintel Scanner 2, in return we would be ready to provide you with the results of our developed engineering for that you can take in consideration to make use of the improvement.

Of interest is:
• how the optical system is mounted in the frame chassis
• how the Schneider Kreuznach Macro Symmar lense is mounted in the carriage
• the position of the optical axis
• the measured position of the iris of the lense (pupil)

May I ask you to please send us the technical drawing of the optical system of Cintel Scanner 2?

We have the system in our hands and will go into it but it is more promising to get knowledge about the mounting details."

The reply of Blackmagic:

"With any request of this nature I always like to forward it on to Cintel R&D team before responding.

Unfortunately, at this time we cannot provide you with any technical drawings of the Cintel camera system. Blackmagic Design take product IP very seriously and as result the company has very strict policies that prevent R&D teams from sharing any sensitive information about a product or product line.

I know there is another customer who has developed a way to increase the size of the 16mm scan to around 2K resolution. I believe this was done without any adaption of the Cintel camera system."

My reply in return:

"We understand the policies issue, although we regret that Blackmagic does not take the user/customer feedback and proposals to solve a serious problem of the Cintel Scanner as a chance.

As mentioned the refusal to support us with help of a technical drawing will not prevent us to go into the described issue by tuning our Cintel Scanner 2; we nevertheless will follow up. It just would have been easier to work out the proper adaption for our Cintel Scanner 2 when we additionally would have a drawing with the set up and measurements in front of us."
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James Little

Blackmagic Design

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostFri Mar 29, 2019 12:43 am

Hi Tatito,

could I inquire as to clarification of your actual goals. Are you trying to 'get more resolution'? The SDK is not going to give you this no matter what you do as it's the physical limits of the machine. If you desire to 'save in a different resolution', then yes the SDK is fully capable of this, you can extend it how you want.

Regards,

James
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tatito

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostFri Mar 29, 2019 6:15 am

Hello James,

Thank you very much for your question to clarify my idea.

It is not about increasing the resolution of the sensor. It is all clear to me that this is not possible. Furthermore the resolution of the sensor is absolutely fine. The possible maximum native resolution of the sensor that can be used is 4096x3072.

But this high resolution is availabe only for 35mm image ratio 4:3.

As soon as you switch to 16mm scans the resolution is heavily cropped by the system. In result the scanned image of a 16mm film with image ratio 4:3 has a resolution even below HD.

To get a better result the optical parts of the scanner must be modified. In addition the system/software caused cropping of the sensor resolution must be avoided. And that is intention of my request here:

Is it possible to switch the scanner to 16mm without automatic cropping of the sensor resolution?
Is it possible to activate 16mm mode and to trim/open up the resolution with help of the SDK - in the very best case to the native resolution of the sensor 4096x3072?

It would be helpful if you could answer this question, James.


Thank you very much,

Herbert
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James Little

Blackmagic Design

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostMon Apr 01, 2019 2:39 am

Hi Herbert,

what you're trying to do is a physical change and requires a new optical path. Anything to that accord will invalidate your warranty and likely contaminate your sensor with dust and break the machine so we'll not be disclosing any information to encourage this activity. Ultimately, it does appear like somebody out there has done it which is great but I presume they took great care and know their optics, but there are lots of flow on effects (i.e. image stabilizer, API image resolution support, calibration, vignetting) etc.. etc..

However we're still evolving the design/software and there are some things in the pipe that will be of interest to this inquiry, however we can't make any promises and it's too early to say much more, but 16mm resolution is one item on our radar.

Regards,

James
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tatito

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostMon Mar 29, 2021 6:10 am

Good morning James,

Let me please come back to the issue that we discussed 2 years ago. You kindly outlined the state of things in April 2019. In the meantime a new Cintel scanner version is available - but regretably still without improvements concerning the lack of resolution for 16mm footage.

May I ask if this topic is on the horizon?

You are right with all your thoughts - concerning the disadvantages if one 'manipulates' on his own the scanner. If there is no move forward on side of Blackmagic we would investigate the options. Could you kindly give me a hint on the mentioned "somebody out there" who followed upt the same idea that we have?

Thank you and best regards,

Herbert
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Ragnorrk

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Re: Cintel Scanner 2, 16 mm resolution

PostTue Mar 30, 2021 2:57 pm

For many years already I have been scanning and restored film and am acquiring the Laser graphics Scan station 6.5K, which is a fantastic movie scanner. I will charge $0.17/ft for 35 mm scans at 4K in order to put the cost of such scanning services in perspective, so that a 400-foot roll is $68 and 2K is lower. As a reference, to match up service costs or exceed the costs of the cheapest scanner available here, you would have to shoot and scan about 76,400 feet by 35 mm to get better services. You should shoot 176,400 metres for the $30K machine.
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