108mp phone first 12k still sample.

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Wayne Steven

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108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Oct 16, 2019 3:04 am

https://beebom.com/mi-mix-alpha-108mp-sensor/

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Unfortunately the article uses a downscaled image of it. But at least it gives you an idea of what the newest 16 stop Samsung sensor can do. It's interesting that the say that Xiaomi phone company has been working on the sensor with Samsung fit a long time. This is a bit strange, as there is little reason for Xiaomi to work on it rather than Samsung helping Xiaomi, unless they wanted some special mode, like 6k or 8k p60, or maybe 12k, but there is no indication of this. Whatever is happening, it's evident, camerawise, this puts a dampner of the Red Hydrogen 2. A company that could have got great traction at half the price (nearly 50% more than the current flagship top performing gaming phones, with 8k resolution sensor) using 4x12mp sensor or 48mp sensor using four lenses, in a multipoint photography format (like a much simpler Light 16 camera). They could have used an innovative 2xs845 processor format as used in other proposed phones. Now, is another market, where you would use 4x8k sensors (from Samsung at the moment, until Sony can match it) and one of two s865 processors and special software. Maybe some racial software to activate 8k on the 108mp sensor (Samsung tends to quad Bayer down to quarter resolution, which would be 6k) is what Xiaomi is doing with Samsung.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Oct 16, 2019 3:33 am

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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Oct 16, 2019 4:45 am

https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=2 ... IX%20Alpha

I think the first two, at least, are from the mix Alpha. It is hard to tell as I was trying to load up the article list going back to the first images and Google translate list synchronisation. But the link above, and the tabs at the top may have others.

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Greg_E

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 2:27 pm

I'm surprised they can make optics that will resolve this well on a phone. The sensor is tiny, the photosites are even smaller, that requires a very high number of lines per millimeter resolution from the lens system.

As far as the Samsung link, Samsung Semiconductor or Imaging are probably very separate companies from Samsung Phones, or Samsung computers. Like Sony I expect they will sell to anyone, especially if that other party is paying for the R&D with a clause that Samsung can use it or sell it to other parties after XXX number of years or YYY units are sold. Kind of like the Panasonic/Fuji partnership for the organic imager that they are almost ready to start shipping.

The Official Raspberry Pi computers are/were made by Sony at the Wales Playstation fabrication plant. There was a very interesting article and videos on this several years ago. They have a very modern PCB fab., and pick and place machines, extremely high tech. Even the testing is done there to qualify the boards and builds. https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/sony-t ... ete-lomas/
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 3:12 pm

Yeah, I've been wondering if things like this and audrino can be used as a platform for product development, where you simply stitch together the circuits used from the platform onto a main board, using their international certifications, to save on development, testing and certification. That is what I was hoping for using modular phone components, but Google cancelled it. Lego hardware development, would have been great, just assemble product like you would a PC, and sell.

Re-edit:. One thing needed with this, is a standardised case system for elimination of interference. When I was at Uni in the 1990's, I saw in one of the engineering mags, this case product that used silver embedded plastic to eliminate electromagnetic interference. I felt, thank you, and noted that product for future use. Even though the individual circuits might have clearence, they could still argue that the overall design of the circuits together is not certified, but if you can get a general certification on such a case product, and case design safety features, then you can overcome that lingering issue. But this is something industry would have to push and figure out. The raspberry pi or audrino bunches could push it with manufacturers, particularly Chinese manufacturers. However, another idea is to have mountable forms of the circuits mounted flat on a carry board, a modern breadboard. The breadboard then gets its own certification, and you buy from a supplier, and mount the modularised boards on it. Now those boards can be super thin with the module carrier providing structural integrity. The modules themselves can use film backing (I used to follow a lot of stuff) even the module board, and simply be stuck to the inside of the case. Going a step further, you don't need the module carrier backing board, as the case becomes that. But, you don't really need to build any functionality into the case, but stick individual modules on it and connect them up. A bit more expensive then doing a single mainboard, but democracies manufacture even further for small companies. Now, such a case has to take into account cooling and firerisk. So, can the case surface it is mounted on be an alloy heat sink. Now, you can flip the modules and direct mount the components onto the heat sync. A little bit more playing around and you have a workable design proposal. Going a step further, and into my Mac mini like 1KW computer design proposal, you can mount modules to a heat sync structure and have structure in the heat sync designed to route between the modules. Now, with these different techniques, I am claiming potential intellectual rights too, so nobody comes along and does a Bayer patent on them with this post being witnessed, you get a range of solutions to suite different thermal envelopes. Now, if we can only get my customisable chip idea out, you would be able to design and configure teraherts chips on your desk. You could manufacture volume product in YOUR Garage.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 3:22 pm

Anyway, I've been keeping an low profile because I figured out you can make an atom a pixel, and just the other day I read that years back some researcher had proposed that too. So, I can open up about it a bit, and yes it did relate to my camera plans (not that I can afford to do that yet, or it will be great performance) but imagine a sensor 1 micron wide. Better not scratch the lens :)

Been thinking of approaching the audrocam people again about something a bit more realistic.

Greg, I read Samsung is trying to overtake Sony in the sensor market. But trying to contact Samsung in the past, they stone wall. To have multiple competitive suppliers of 16stop+ low light capable sensors, is good.
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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 3:39 pm

With Panasonic now making sensors too, we should be seeing some really impressive things in the next few years. And safe to say that we are all looking forward to these new things. A 4k camera with really good 16 stop performance with a compressed RAW codec would be great. Better if we could get a real RGB sensor with that same 4k and raw. Foveon was so close, I think we need to see this getting developed again. Even as a Y-C type sensor layer, you can double the apparent resolution from this one change to have real 4k luminescence resolution (Green) and a 2x2 grid for chroma or Red and Blue (R-Y, B-Y).
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostFri Oct 18, 2019 4:08 pm

Have a look at my edited posts above Greg.

The event schedule of a conference was leaked a week or so ago, and Sony is showing off a three colour layered sensor. I'm waiting. There are a lot of companies developing foveon competing materials, a s the foveon patent should be up sometime. Even three layered film (reference in the Fuji? Patent) established a prior art to the notion of vertical colour. I find it interesting that in three layered film they use three more sub-layers of each layer to get high dynamic range. The sublayers have different levels of response. Very nice. But it makes me wonder if we aren't just approaching sensor HDR design wrong. They are using different response on different pixels to do a spatial HDR you could calculate out. My proposal mid to earlier last decade was to use certain mechanisms/structyresy for different response inside the pixels, sort of adds up similarly for HDR. But I figured a firm of sampling instead which would give HDR, which turns out similar to some tech out there. But, I've illustrated how dual gain can be used in a few different ways here, and maybe somewhere else, and here how one might trick present dual gain sensors into doing true HDR.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostSun Oct 20, 2019 5:13 pm

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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostThu Oct 31, 2019 12:58 pm

Is Arri's Alexa's days limited:

Here is the Samsung 16 stop 12k mobile sensor I told you about, which shoots 6k video. It is under 1 inch, but 1 inch version should be over 16k and do 8l video:

https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_announce ... -38627.php

The adjustable gain depending on illumination hdr sounds a bit like the autobrite technology my very old camera has which people doubt. Some people are so twigged they can't be challenged with truth, but instead have to stand in front of progress and make an intellectual scene, even when presented with concrete over evidence they demand (Yes, I'm not fond of that sort of prima dona).

Here is a mid range phone that uses it. The finale design of the sensor setup here was fine with Samsung. The optical zoom is 5x.

https://m.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_posts_cam ... -39835.php

https://m.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_teases_a_ ... -39853.php

Pretty good for low resolution versions of the 12k consumer images:

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Here is the balcony of the building in the foreground:

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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Mar 04, 2020 12:56 am

Here are some comparisons from their flagship mi 10 5G camera series launched last month. I presume it uses the second generation Samsung 12k chip above. This is the top rated camera phone at dxom.

People annoyingly ask for proof after proof has just been posted. So here is more:



Mi 10 Pro 4k New York. This is a 12k still sensor, and does 8k video. It is much more Arri like than the Sony sensored cameras.





Mi 10 pro vs IPhone be 11 max pro. The mi 10 pro looks like the mini 4.6k compared to the pocket 4k. The mi using a Samsung sensor and the Apple presumably using a Sony. But there is three other sensors there, so the difference depends on the image sensor used.



Mi 10 pro vs mi 10

You loose the more advanced camera setup in the non pro version, replaced by a lower res cameras and depth camera, without the telephoto features. Some of these depth cameras have over 20 stops of dynamic range, but in Infrared. But still, of it did, can it be used in an app to give monochromatic toning to burned out areas. However, can the array be used to give a hdr map by setting each to different sensor to different gain and shutter? Interesting.

Here we see that mostly the pro is much more saturated, with the mi 10 more neutral. But I think this might be a setup error. I think at the end they change the setup and you notice the difference is reverse, then they are similar.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Mar 04, 2020 1:39 am

The phone above mentioned is severely crippled, as it has no card slot or 3.5mm jack at all, let alone one setup for dual channel in and out for recording, like Apple had microphone support. This is despite the modest video quality specs. Great sensor, though. Would of be a pro pocket cane a with that.

There are a number of 8k supporting cameras from last year, if you setup the right video app to support it. But the quality was meager. This year they are talking about 24 and 30fps at 80 mb/s I presume. But what we need is something you can push to at least 150mb/s h265, preferably 300mb/s+, but I don't hold my breath for that.

There currently are mi 10 (Not the note 10 version, which is a mid ranger 4k) s20 as new 8k camera phones, with a bunch of 865 chipset phones coming this month or so, which can include 8k. This includes the Nubia Red Magic 5G phone with 64mp sensor. The stills I have seen don't look so good to me, but it may depend on the software you use. It has a cooling fan, so may be the quietest red camera cooling fan :). The fan is to allow it to be clocked higher during gaming. They are the company promising 8kp30 camera phone last year, and pro cameea software, but the phones never got that. Let's hope it is different this year, we could really do with that. Anyway, from by order the Chinese market version, and check for conventional android and android play, market support.

I'm still waiting, and Samsung has a 144 mp and 200 or do mp support. If they are 16k chips (the 200 or so being more square) then that will be pretty good for 8k-4k.

Nokia apparently is dropping it's new light multipoint flagship model. It again seemed dated, and thought it was coming out latter last year. So, the next model no gut be a lot better. People have been claiming that the stills were far superior in the previous phone in raw Bayer mode. Others didn't like the normal stills. Mi was to get light camera features too, but we haven't seen it yet. So, not much to choose from in this area. So not worth waiting for me yet. I suspect people are waiting for the Sony light camera modules.

From a recent sample, I don't like the toning dynamic range of the new 64mp Sony as much as the 108mp Samsung, but we will see.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostWed Mar 04, 2020 2:17 am

I forgot. The LG V60 ThinQ 5G has a 3.5mm jack, sd card slot, and USB 3.1 type C. I don't know if they have log on this.

https://m.gsmarena.com/lg_v60_thinq_5g-10103.php
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Wayne Steven

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Re: 108mp phone first 12k still sample.

PostTue Mar 17, 2020 5:46 pm

If you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anything. Side topics in-line with, or related to, the discussion accepted.

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.

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