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Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:07 am
by Jessy C
There's a bin called Master. Is Blackmagic going to change that? Other industries are realizing that it's an anachronism.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/EasilyRe ... oMain.aspx

https://jezebel.com/home-builders-stop- ... -476363801

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:48 am
by Charles Bennett
So, do you intend to change terms like "masterclass", "master fader", "master controller", or a "ship's master", or even a "Masters Degree" etc, and can I no longer master a technique or skill?
The terms are not the problem. It's the connotations that, for whatever reason, people decide to give them.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:59 pm
by Jim Simon
That's a bad argument Jessy. Words often have many definitions. One is not the same as another.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:32 pm
by Jessy C
Some of the terms mentioned above come from a “master” which necessitates slaves. Some don’t. Git’s `master` branch comes from a history where “master“ and “slave” were used. The Master bin has the same root.

Regardless, I’m not who started this argument, but I do agree with it. I’m just gauging Blackmagic and the community here. I’d be especially interested to hear from anybody here who is black. Do we even have such people? Seems like an obvious market to go after, given the company name.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:23 pm
by waltervolpatto
we should change "white balance" and "black balance"... because....

many tournament are called "masters"....

there is not the issue.

now having money for public schools, gerrymandering, voting blocking, police brutality, redlining, , those are the issues.

(although "main bedroom" is much more nicer than "master bedroom")...

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:25 pm
by waltervolpatto
https://www.masterclass.com/homepage

this website got it totally wrong then...

Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:44 pm
by Mel Matsuoka
While I do think that making a big deal about the usage of terminology like this (esp. when it’s not used in a “master/slave” context, which Resolve doesn’t do) is picking the wrong battle, I also agree that we shouldn’t be trivializing the subject, as well. There’s absolutely no harm in changing long accepted terminology, when an alternative can be found that’s just as (and possibly more) descriptive, and isn’t as culturally charged. However, I don’t think Resolve falls into this category.

As far as I can tell, Resolve only uses the term “Master” in the context of something that is considered the “main” object of whatever workflow you’re using. It never uses the term “Slave” as an adjunct to its use of the “Master” terminology (instead terms like “Remote” or “Shared” are used). So I personally don’t have a problem with them not changing it. Conversely, I would also have ZERO problem with them changing it, and would seriously question the character of anyone who would object to this happening.


There are definitely instances of the use of the “Master/Slave” terminology where it should definitely be eliminated. Databases, in particular, is one area of the industry where the use of this terminology is thankfully changing, for the same reasons that the OP brought up.


https://medium.com/@mikebroberts/let-s- ... f1d1bf34df

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:16 pm
by Mel Matsuoka
Wouldn’t you know it, there’s actually an interesting Wikipedia article on this “controversy”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/ ... technology)#Terminology_concerns



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Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:44 pm
by Mel Matsuoka
I agree that the objection to “Master” in this specific instance is a bit misplaced.

But I feel we should support any effort to make it an accepted standard for software to use terminology which does not inherently leave themselves open to the complementary use of charged words like “Slave”. If developers started using terms like “Main” or “Primary” instead, there would be no natural temptation to use the term “Slave” when implementing an associated feature.

You can definitely make legitimate, etymological defenses for the use of the word “Master”, but I think that doing so misses the point, which is that developers should be more careful and critical of the terminology they use for the features in their tools.


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Re: Master

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:51 pm
by Ellory Yu
I'm not white and likely considered a minority but c'mon folks, we can all be sensitive in a different way and not by putting context on everything. Those who do just either doesn't know any better, bitter, or just have too much time on their hands. We can all do better by doing more productive and positive things.
BTW, this is a forum for creative and technical discussion. Let's not politicize it and I meant well.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:03 am
by Gary Hango
Thank you, Ellory for your level headed attitude. I concur. It’s a rabbit hole with no bottom.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:56 am
by MikeMeagher
IMHO this thread is a waste of good zeros and ones...
My strange theory is that there is ultimately a finite amount of data in the universe.. lets not waste data on such matters, that are not related to color grading, editing, filmmaking... etc..

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:54 pm
by Jim Simon
Jessy C wrote:I’d be especially interested to hear from anybody here who is black. Do we even have such people? Seems like an obvious market to go after, given the company name.


Holy crap! You serious with this?

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:56 pm
by Jim Simon
Mel Matsuoka wrote:There’s absolutely no harm in changing long accepted terminology


When the underlying reasoning for it is insane, doing so would validate that insanity.

Good people need to stand up to bad arguments and just say "NO!"

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
by Jim Simon
Mel Matsuoka wrote:we should support any effort to make it an accepted standard for software to use terminology which does not inherently leave themselves open to the complementary use of charged words like “Slave”.


There's the insanity we need to fight against.

Words are not "charged". PEOPLE either understand the correct meaning of words, or they ascribe their own emotional reaction which doesn't inherently exist in the definition and it's context.

People doing the latter must not be allowed to rule the conversation or policy. A line must be drawn in the sand. "You think what you want, but do not impose your emotional reaction on others who understand the intended meaning."

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:08 pm
by Jim Simon
Ellory Yu wrote:this is a forum for creative and technical discussion.


Definitely belongs in the Off-Topic section.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:59 pm
by Gary Hango
I just noticed several forum members now have a warning in their avatar profile. I’m assuming because they presented opposing views to the theme of this thread. Please, people, think before you react. Warnings are for people abusing the forum rules, not for punishing people with opposing views to your own.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:54 pm
by waltervolpatto
Gary Hango wrote:I just noticed several forum members now have a warning in their avatar profile. I’m assuming because they presented opposing views to the theme of this thread. Please, people, think before you react. Warnings are for people abusing the forum rules, not for punishing people with opposing views to your own.


Jim got his warning a long time ago... no thread related...

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:54 pm
by Gary Hango
I guess I just never noticed them before, so forgive me for accusing anyone.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:21 pm
by Dermot Shane
Mel Matsuoka wrote:There are definitely instances of the use of the “Master/Slave” terminology where it should definitely be eliminated. Databases, in particular, is one area of the industry where the use of this terminology is thankfully changing, for the same reasons that the OP brought up.


more than 20 years ago the dev's at Avid|DS changed all their existing “Master/Slave” terminology to “Parent/Child” terminology, it was offensive 1998, and is today... i would be surprised to see that in any creative software circa 2020, although it was common in the 90's and earlier

those terms do not exist in Resolve's documentation that i could find by searching the manual for v8 (the oldest manual i have on my lappie) with the words "master" and "slave", i suspect they have never been in any version of any documentation from BMD

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:34 am
by waltervolpatto
Dermot Shane wrote:
Mel Matsuoka wrote:There are definitely instances of the use of the “Master/Slave” terminology where it should definitely be eliminated. Databases, in particular, is one area of the industry where the use of this terminology is thankfully changing, for the same reasons that the OP brought up.


more than 20 years ago the dev's at Avid|DS changed all their existing “Master/Slave” terminology to “Parent/Child” terminology, it was offensive 1998, and is today... i would be surprised to see that in any creative software circa 2020, although it was common in the 90's and earlier

those terms do not exist in Resolve's documentation that i could find by searching the manual for v8 (the oldest manual i have on my lappie) with the words "master" and "slave", i suspect they have never been in any version of any documentation from BMD

There are instancing of master (master timeline is an example) but i don't recall “slave”

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:18 am
by Dermot Shane
DS has a parent->child relationship between timelines, and also in the node tree - the concept is really useful

it's a concept that Resolve does not incorprate tho, so i guess i'm not surprised that the term does not exist in it's documentation

i searched the the two words together and came up with nutt'n

lots of hits for the word "master" tho, a common term.... "color timed master" would be one used daily in our workflow

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 am
by Howard Roll
Social media encouraged me to change the context of my S&M website to "Objectively equal persons, engaged in mutually affirmed, denegrating, pain, and humiliation avoidance and infliction strategies", looking back my only regret is not doing it sooner. I guess technically I now run a OEPEMADPAHIS website. The future folks.

Good Luck

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:33 am
by waltervolpatto
Howard Roll wrote:Social media encouraged me to change the context of my S&M website to "Objectively equal persons, engaged in mutually affirmed, denegrating, pain, and humiliation avoidance and infliction strategies", looking back my only regret is not doing it sooner. I guess technically I now run a OEPEMADPAHIS website. The future folks.

Good Luck


S&M = Sadist & Masochist...... nothing to do with master...... LOL....

(this is really getting out of hand...)

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:16 am
by Rick van den Berg
i believe github is going to change the term master because of the same reasons. what a time to be alive

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:27 am
by Howard Roll
Busted. Everything I (don’t) know about S&M I learned from a Depeche Mode song back in 6th grade.

Not to make light, rather make some light, we could use it.

Good Luck

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:45 pm
by waltervolpatto
Howard Roll wrote:Busted. Everything I (don’t) know about S&M I learned from a Depeche Mode song back in 6th grade.

Not to make light, rather make some light, we could use it.

Good Luck


I can introduce you to people.....

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:23 pm
by Jessy C
Rick van den Berg wrote:i believe github is going to change the term master because of the same reasons. what a time to be alive

Yep! https://gizmodo.com/github-to-remove-ma ... 1844041329

Jim Simon wrote:
Jessy C wrote:I’d be especially interested to hear from anybody here who is black. Do we even have such people? Seems like an obvious market to go after, given the company name.


Holy crap! You serious with this?

I am. My default mental image for "master" is one of the following, below, when I see it anywhere in software, for example. The Master of Puppets surely has slaves, but I figured he didn't discriminate based on ethnicity. So I don't feel like racism has directly come into play, but it's not important to me that "master" continues to be used in these places, if other people's experiences are different.

You're never going to stop this "master" stuff from being the first thing my brain comes up with, even if I learn new meanings. Similarly, you're not going to eradicate the hoodoo/witchcraft connotations from having a company named "Blackmagic". Personally, I think it's a cool name, but it does limit the amount of certain religious people who will pay the company money or otherwise grow the brand. I think it makes sense to use the marketing power of the name to attract whoever else possible.

Imagine trying to sell the idea of using Resolve to a group of non-white people, if the name of the company were "White Magic". I think it's obvious that it's going to go over much better with the name as-is.

ImageImageImageImage

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:06 pm
by Dermot Shane
we use the term CTM (Color Timed Master) commonly, i've seen submasters, delivery masters, dubbing masters, domestic masters, international masters, DCDM (digital Cinema Distrib Master), all sorts of uses for the word "master"

but i've been at this a longish time, and i've never ever seen a "color timed slave" or any other use of the word "slave" since the 90's...

it seems the use of the word "master" does not mean there's automaticly the word slave assumed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master

Re: Master

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:28 pm
by John Paines
The use of "master", as in "master bin", "master builder" or "master bedroom" goes back to at least the year 1200 in English, with no connection to slavery or the master/slave opposition which was common in the early computer days. And there are hundreds of such examples, through the centuries.

Whatever else you can say about the OP's intent here -- maybe trolling? -- his etymology is lousy.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:51 pm
by MikeMeagher
.. I need to cease using DR as it is so blatantly racist.. having that "master" bin..
I am so offended..
The first thing that I think of everytime that I see that bin, is images of people being whipped.. tied to a tree.
.... I really hope that the OP was being sarcastic.. as I am being here too.

Lets all carry on with doing work.. and lets all ignore the PC police.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:53 pm
by Jessy C
This thread was basically a waste of time. It’s astounding to me that you old people can’t even consider this seriously from someone else’s perspective, but at least you’ll be dead soon!

Re: Master

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:55 pm
by waltervolpatto
Jessy C wrote: It’s astounding to me that you old people can’t even consider this seriously from someone else’s perspective, but at least you’ll be dead soon!


how inspiring and zen....

Re: Master

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:15 pm
by Mel Matsuoka
Jessy C wrote:This thread was basically a waste of time. It’s astounding to me that you old people can’t even consider this seriously from someone else’s perspective, but at least you’ll be dead soon!


People like you give people like me, who actually do take these things seriously, a bad name.

Cease and desist, please.

Re: Master

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:22 pm
by Daniel Chabot
The use of master in this sense is not an anachronism as it is appropriate to the field of filmmaking. Your objection is misplaced.


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