What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

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Ellory Yu

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What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Oct 29, 2022 6:38 am

Okay, besides being manufactured in China, what’s wrong with owning the Z-Cam? I see a few things going for the E2 series: Interchangeable lens mount, 6K S35, 6K FF, 8K FF, and a global shutter option, highly configurable Box form factor, aluminum body. The codec seem reasonable but not sure about their color science. They’re price right as well. So why is it not as popular as a BlackMagic or RED?
Last edited by Ellory Yu on Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim Simon

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Oct 29, 2022 2:19 pm

Add internal BRAW recording and their offerings would be on my list of possibilities.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Oct 30, 2022 7:37 am

Jim Simon wrote:Add internal BRAW recording and their offerings would be on my list of possibilities.

That would be nice but I doubt BMD will license it to them as they are competitors. And if that was the case, you think it becomes a buyable product and will get notice?
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Jim Simon

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Oct 30, 2022 3:03 pm

They've licensed BRAW to Fuji and Panasonic. At least for external recording.

I'd love to see BRAW get adopted for internal recording across manufacturers as well.
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Mark Foster

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Oct 30, 2022 4:12 pm

Jim Simon wrote:They've licensed BRAW to Fuji and Panasonic. At least for external recording.

I'd love to see BRAW get adopted for internal recording across manufacturers as well.


but this would also mean that BMD would be giving up its trump card.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostMon Oct 31, 2022 8:10 am

I’m tired of waiting for Blackmagic to comes out with a box camera so I am contemplating on getting the ZCam E2-F6 Full Frame Pro which also has global shutter. There’s rumors that it will be able to write to an Atomos recorder with Prores RAW. If that will ever come to provision, they have my money. It will be worth a try.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostMon Oct 31, 2022 9:42 am

I see a lot of Z-Cams offered up second hand with low hours on the body.

So clearly a lot of users find it is not there camera.. Not sure if that is due to workflow issues or whatever..

Just seems not too populair..
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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostMon Oct 31, 2022 3:31 pm

Good point. I think with the current codecs, IQ maybe the reason. It can also be the build quality. IDK. I’m not yet jumping with two feet but will cautiously assess it over the coming months. I’m planning to rent one and see how it is. Hopefully, BM will announce something that will distract me from the Z-Cams.
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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostThu Nov 03, 2022 4:58 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:I see a few things going for the E2 series: Interchangeable lens mount, 6K S35, 6K FF, 8K FF, and a global shutter option


Only the ZCam E2-F6G models have global shutter and they are twice the price of the non G models, around $6K, from what I can make out (Can't find them in the UK), with slightly less DR. I think anything with around 8ms or less RS these days, like your UMPG2 Ellory, make global unnecessary, IMV. The box thing I understand you want though. Seem on the surface good cameras at a good price though but perhaps service is an issue too?
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostFri Nov 04, 2022 5:13 pm

To me the only real reason that i not tested it is the assistance. If I had a problem with Panasonic, canon, Sony, less 200 Km and I had physical assistance, Blackmagic Design now with brexit is a bit complex travel to Uk that could be a bit longer but work for European user. I don’t know if I had problem with zcam where to send cam, how many times to have back the cam?
Some people told that Blackmagic Design are so low expansive that I can have two, ones to backup… I’m not so rich, then assistance is a important point to me, for my work (and I have more than one cam).


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Mark Foster

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostFri Nov 04, 2022 5:23 pm

there is a BMD office in netherland:

Screenshot 2022-11-04 at 18.19.52.jpg
Screenshot 2022-11-04 at 18.19.52.jpg (87.4 KiB) Viewed 22351 times


possibly do the support exchange with UK?



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Steve Fishwick

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 9:05 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:Blackmagic Design now with brexit is a bit complex travel to Uk that could be a bit longer but work for European user. I don’t know if I had problem with zcam where to send cam, how many times to have back the cam?


Carlo, sadly it is far more complex too for us to travel to Europe now with the senseless Brexit. My daughters and some family live in Spain (happily they are Spanish on their mother's side) and I used to travel there easily every year, now I am a foreigner :lol:
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 9:38 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Blackmagic Design now with brexit is a bit complex travel to Uk that could be a bit longer but work for European user. I don’t know if I had problem with zcam where to send cam, how many times to have back the cam?


Carlo, sadly it is far more complex too for us to travel to Europe now with the senseless Brexit. My daughters and some family live in Spain (happily they are Spanish on their mother's side) and I used to travel there easily every year, now I am a foreigner :lol:


to be honest Steve, i can understood why England decide to separate itself from europe, in europe we had too much "forein owners" that want to command other countries.

i had many friends in England and around it, i can sometimes turn around some oddities but Uk was a base for many shop and many assistance, for many training center for europe, like apple, i hope Uk try to find according to keep them internally and do a good agreement to simplify the movment, but i understand that require time and agreeement between too much heads.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 9:51 am

I hope so too, Carlo - when and if we have sensible heads again here :lol: At least my daughters can have both passports. But as Mark said BMD have to honour your warranties in mainland Europe, without you being inconvenienced by Brexit. Back to the Z Cam, I worry about some of these Chinese makes where service is directly with them - I'm not judging their quality understand. I think it is Kinefinity who particularly have a perceived service issue in the States?
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSat Nov 05, 2022 11:48 am

Steve Fishwick wrote:I hope so too, Carlo - when and if we have sensible heads again here :lol: At least my daughters can have both passports. But as Mark said BMD have to honour your warranties in mainland Europe, without you being inconvenienced by Brexit. Back to the Z Cam, I worry about some of these Chinese makes where service is directly with them - I'm not judging their quality understand. I think it is Kinefinity who particularly have a perceived service issue in the States?


yes, i agree with you.
to be back to Zcam, my question is not about z cam quality service, but shipping process.
i start from italy where postal service sometims miss package (two weeks ago lost a package with a large keyboard), think to ship to china and back is a bit of nightmare for me for time and reability.
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Howard Roll

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Nov 06, 2022 12:33 am

Kinefinity opened a sales and service center in Burbank a year ago and began retailing in the US. Prior to this sales and service were out of China. When they moved offices to the US they dropped raw.

Good Luck
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Nov 06, 2022 1:18 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Kinefinity opened a sales and service center in Burbank a year ago and began retailing in the US. Prior to this sales and service were out of China. When they moved offices to the US they dropped raw.

Good Luck

they dropped raw be cause Red suede them ... like did for everyone record compressed raw in camera
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roger.magnusson

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostSun Nov 06, 2022 11:27 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:So why is it not as popular as a BlackMagic or RED?

I wrote a list of pros and cons about two years ago from my experience with the Z CAM E2-M4 here. They share the same operating system so all the cameras have the same quirks.

Since you asked what's wrong with Z CAM here are the cons from the other thread:
  • Assist features (focus peaking etc). Don't enable any assist features or LUTs in the camera. Seriously, turn everything off. Assist features add considerable latency to the HDMI output and scopes are shown at a very low frame rate. It's very distracting. LUTs decrease the bit depth of the HDMI output (doesn't affect recordings). The current Z Cam cameras are way behind BMD in this regard.
  • Lack of proper documentation
  • All the software you might need is spread out all over the place. They don't host anything themselves, it's all on Google Drive or similar. In addition to that they don't use code signing, meaning the software isn't validated as coming from them. That's a perfect storm of IT security no-no's, making customers susceptible to hackable software. A lot of information can only be found in the official non-public Facebook group (where the CEO and engineers are very active, that's a plus of course).
  • Timecode requires a funky adapter (this is probably subject to change)
  • ZRAW isn't supported in DaVinci Resolve
  • While the camera can record ProRes, it can't play it back. All playback is performed from the always-on proxy track embedded as a second video track in the ProRes files.

That last one can really make you look bad if someone asks for playback on a large monitor. All you will ever be able to play from the camera when you record ProRes is an 8-bit 720p H.264 proxy file with tons of artifacts. By the way, the proxies are no longer embedded in the original files, they're separate files now.

That said, the original files look great, I have no complaints about the image quality.
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Howard Roll

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostMon Nov 07, 2022 6:04 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:
Howard Roll wrote:Kinefinity opened a sales and service center in Burbank a year ago and began retailing in the US. Prior to this sales and service were out of China. When they moved offices to the US they dropped raw.

Good Luck

they dropped raw be cause Red suede them ... like did for everyone record compressed raw in camera


That was the intended meaning. When Kinefinity was strictly a Chinese company US patent law had little meaning. In the US one must fight for raw.

Good Luck
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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostThu Aug 31, 2023 10:25 am

Even though this post is almost a year old I'm a recent BM to ZCam convert so figured I'd chime in and try to answer some of the reservations people may have about the cameras.

First off: Everything bad you've heard about them is true. They are a pain in the @$$. It took me a while to figure out a system that works for them and I've finally got it down. You will need to spend extra though - almost least double the list price. Is it worth it? Heck yes!

The most important thing: The Z Cam isn't just better than anything in BM's arsenal, it's better than just about any camera I've used. I've had a Sony F55 for a decade now (they used it for Ex Machina, Tomorrowland, and numerous other gorgeous movies). It is better than that camera. I used both cameras (Z Cam for gimbal stuff, Sony for handheld and dolly stuff) on a commercial shoot a few months back and showed an early edit to my elderly parents who know nothing about cinema. Asked them which shots looked better and they posted out the Z Cam shots every time commenting on the detail and clarity. It's that big of an improvement.

Nothing Blackmagic has comes even close. I love my BM cameras (yes, I have a BMPCC 6K, 4K and an Ursa) but only use them for corporate interview stuff now where reliability and storage space is more important than image quality. Heck, I did tests with my friend's Red Raptor and they're compatible. Z Cam ain't quite there but it's in the same league which is impressive for 10% of the cost.

I liked the Z Cam so much I bought a second one. That said, I made a mistake there. I already had the E2-F6 (full frame 6K) so tried the E2-S6 (S35 6K) and I should have stayed with the F6 for my second camera. Like Red, the Z Cam crops in when you shoot in lower resolutions. For the F6 this means at 4K you're filming at S35 on the sensor. With the S6 this means you're barely above MFT sensor size. Still a better image than the BMPCC4K but defeats the purpose of a PL and EF mount. If you get one, get the F6.

Now, more problems but ones with solutions.

1. ZRAW is f'ing useless. Doesn't work on M1 Macs. Doesn't work in Resolve. I'm sure it's dandy if you have a system it works on but I don't. Solution: I got the Atomos Ninja V for my cameras and now it can record ProRes RAW in 5.6K (no cropping). Doesn't fix the Resolve issue but there's workarounds for that at least. The camera does record ProRes 422 internally to CFast cards but that's a garbage codec in my opinion.

2. Atomos Ninja V recorder: I felt bad supporting Atomos after their shady history with Blackmagic but unfortunately I had to make a deal with the devil to get what I needed from this system. It works great but the data rate for RAW video thru HDMI burns through cables. You need HDMI 2.1 cables and you need a few of them because they will crap out after a few shoots. I basically price in two cables into my shoot budget now.

3. Z Cam's customer service is less than useless. It's infuriating. They will not help you and just blame everything but their camera or tell you it's your problem something doesn't work. I've gotten no help solving the ZRAW issue other than I have the wrong computer. Started getting glitches in my footage and they blamed the memory cards and recorder. After trouble shooting I found out it was the new firmware causing the issue. Fixed it myself.

4. Extra cost are an issue. The Atomos recorder ain't cheap. You can also use the Blackmagic recorder to get BRAW but only up to 4K last I checked. I miss BRAW. Great codec! The optional eND is essential in my opinion but costs a couple hundred dollars. Worth it for internal NDs but only stops down to 1.6 so if you want to clear NDs you have to remove the device which is tedious. And, for SDI's you need another attachment. It's only $100 but also sits over the battery mount so you need to sort out an alternative power option. Fortunately I had a V-mount plate for the rig so I use that when I need SDI output. All this adds up to about $2K

Back to the good stuff: Did I mention the image is insanely good? Yeah, that's the best part and the only reason I spent the time and money to figure all this out.

Other good stuff:
The size of the camera and shape is great for gimbal stuff too. Super-easy to balance.

Love having multiple mounts. Currently have PL and EF for both cameras, and MFT and M mount just in case. Haven't sued those yet though. Really easy to swap between mounts.

All my rigging from my BMPCC cameras worked great with my Z Cam (just needed a new cage) so that saved me some money at least.

So, yeah, I totally understand why most people don't like Z Cam. But, if your goal is getting the best images you can and you're willing to invest the time and money into it then I highly recommend them. I cannot express enough how vastly better the image quality is than anything I've ever gotten from my BM cameras. And, I love BM. I don't say any of this lightly. I've been a longtime Blackmagic fanboy and admire what they've done for all levels of video and filmmaking. So, I mean no disrespect to Blackamgic and their wonderful team of innovators. They do wonderful work but in this one area they are far behind Z Cam.

Anyway, thanks for reading all this. Hope it was helpful to some of you. And, if you have any questions feel free to ask away.
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HykCIne

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Re: What’s wrong with Z-Cam?

PostFri Sep 01, 2023 4:43 am

Let me start by saying huge thanks for your post. It's motivates me the process of the shifting from BM to Z Cam. I already decided to sell my 6k pro and by e2 f6 pro.

Why e2 f6 pro instead of e2 f6?
Because it's have native monitor (unfortunately only with 1000nits), but which will allow me easily navigate through menu, so it won't be the same experience as you have on w2 f6.

It's records internally 24 bit audio, e2 f6 records 16 bit, for me it's important.

Native v mount plate as I am not a big fan of a np-f batteries.

Cons

There is no dedicated support team, every time on my emails is answering Kinson Loo, with a way like search on our website or if it is a bit easy question I am getting direct answer.
But z cam fb group helps me to get the answers quickly.

ZRAW is so hungry, I can't edit it on windows with PP, so braw 6k are so easy edit.

There is a limiter for a video, max is 1 hour and when it cuts you loose milliseconds of the audio, that's why you need to use their dedicated software which will stitch all videos and bring back missing audio into one file.

Menu is very bad to navigate, why they don't want to make it a bit easy with a help of firmware updates.

No native ND filters

Pros

Interchangeable mounts - newly announced LPL, PL, EF, M, E, soon viltrox will announce mark II version of their E mount for z cam cameras.

FF sensor

Prores, as for now it records only on ProRes 422 HQ, with 6064 x 4040 resolution, when e2 f6 can also record on H.265/MOV/MP4.

Native monitor

Native V mount battery plate

If I am missing something, please you can add or correct me.

Let me ask some questions to you Geoff:

I guess there is some 4k resolutions where it's not crops, but oversample image from 6k to 4k, correct?
If yes which one is that?

Is there anamorphic options for 4:3 or 16:9?
Desqueeze options like 1.33x up to 2x?
In which resolutions it can record that 1.33x up to 2x?
Z Cam E2-F6 Pro / Tokina 11-20 / Canon 17-55 / Sigma 18-35 / Sigma 50-100 /

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