New Camera

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Jerry J Legend

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New Camera

PostSat Mar 02, 2024 6:40 pm

Dear Friends,

I am at the point to buy a new Camera. But I don't know which one to buy.
At this moment I'm using my iPhone 14 Pro cameras as my main one.
I shoot in 4k (3840x2160) 30 FPS Apple Prores 422 and edit it my project on Windows 11 Pro machine with DR studio 18.

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Now I like to upgrade my camera. So meaning selling my iPhone 14 Pro and buying A real camera to shoot my video and edit the VFX on to it. I love to work with Apple Prores 422, Because it does not slow my PC down in any way. Now I'm searching for a camera that also have Apple Prores 422 or something that works like Apple Prores. But the one that I find are ridiculous expensive like 5000 Euros. My max what I can spend is 1200 Euros with a lens.

If anyone has ideas or advice, please let know
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rNeil H

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Mar 02, 2024 7:30 pm

We can't give usable advice without knowing what you want to record with it, and how you will use the media in post. And of course, the obvious question: what will you do with the final product?

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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Mar 02, 2024 7:58 pm

I record a bit of everthing, I use the footage mostly for VFX. I shoot from big city to people, to landscape, to indoor stuff. I also try to get in shooting documentary / interviews. When I upload my footage in DR. I will begin with cut and replacing the footage to the right places. Form there I will add a Lut or do a bit of color corraction. Then I wil go into the fusion tab and add my VFX the way I want.
The final product will go into my porfolio, until my website is done. After my website is done I will upload all my work on my website.
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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostSun Mar 03, 2024 1:52 pm

Is a Sony A6100 with a lens 16-50mm F/3.5-5.6 a good upgrade form the iPhone 14 pro?

And about the video codec. Is XAVC S better the Apple Prores 422?
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Jim Simon

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Mar 04, 2024 2:05 pm

I think the Pocket 4K is a no-brainer here. There's nothing better under $5k.

And you might find BRAW as easy on the system as ProRes, but with smaller files and better quality. ;)
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John Paines

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Mar 04, 2024 4:10 pm

Jim Simon wrote:I think the Pocket 4K is a no-brainer here. There's nothing better under $5k.

And you might find BRAW as easy on the system as ProRes, but with smaller files and better quality. ;)


He says he only has $1200 euros for camera and lens, which probably won't buy a Pocket 4K either, but what research did you conduct, before offering the "no-brainer" above?

You've closely examined the quality and features of the Canon C70, the Panasonic S1H, various Sony and Fuji cameras all under $5K? And you analytically compared braw to various flavors of Prores?

Is "no-brainer" really the right word?

Finally, how many new shooters are prepared to become colorists, and how many of those recommending such a path are themselves skilled enough to advise anyone else on the wisdom of that path? The answers aren't always reassuring.
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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Mar 04, 2024 9:17 pm

He says he only has $1200 euros for camera and lens, which probably won't buy a Pocket 4K either, but what research did you conduct, before offering the "no-brainer" above?


At first I thought he means that the pocket 4k for 1400 euro comes with a lens. But unfortunately that was not the cause.
I love the products of Blackmagic, but as a starter the prices are too much for me. At this moment I got my eyes on a Sony A6100 with two lens 16-50mm + 55-210mm (ILCE6100YB.CEC) for a price of 1050 euro.
What are the thought. Is this option better than my iPhone 14 pro and Apple prores. I'm planning to switch from apple prores to Xavc video codec

Any advice is wide welcome
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RCModelReviews

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Mar 04, 2024 11:43 pm

Never underestimate the value of buying second-hand gear. If you shop carefully and are prepared to wait you can get some super deals on "last generation" gear that has depreciated somewhat.

The camera you can afford (and therefore *have*) will always record better footage than the camera you wish you had but can't afford :-)

Also, don't overlook the utility of some modern camcorders -- all the lenses you'll ever need, great zoom, top-notch image stabilization, long run-times, no overheating, compact and durable.

Unless you're going to be doing a lot of work with low light, the small sensor won't be a burden (you can still get bokeh if you know how to use them properly).

Most all of my footage is done with camcorders and I get okay results (for an amateur turned YouTuber)

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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 2:12 am

Why not upgrade your phone? The 15 is a serious camera, actually.
For more detail, see the threads in the Cinematography section.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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4EvrYng

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 3:44 am

Jerry J Legend wrote:I am at the point to buy a new Camera. But I don't know which one to buy.
At this moment I'm using my iPhone 14 Pro cameras as my main one.

I feel it is important to know _WHY_ you feel need to replace your current setup, what you hope to gain with it that you are missing right now.
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4EvrYng

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 4:18 am

Jerry J Legend wrote:At this moment I got my eyes on a Sony A6100 with two lens 16-50mm + 55-210mm (ILCE6100YB.CEC) for a price of 1050 euro. What are the thought. Is this option better than my iPhone 14 pro and Apple prores.

Few things to consider: Files from iPhone 14 Pro are 10-bit. Files from Sony A6100 are 8-bit. iPhone 14 Pro can shoot HDR, A6100 can't. iPhone 14 Pro can shoot log with few 3rd party apps (15 Pro can shoot log natively), A6100 can't. iPhone 14 Pro and 15 Pro possibly have higher dynamic range than A6100.
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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 5:16 am

4EvrYng wrote:
Jerry J Legend wrote:I am at the point to buy a new Camera. But I don't know which one to buy.
At this moment I'm using my iPhone 14 Pro cameras as my main one.

I feel it is important to know _WHY_ you feel need to replace your current setup, what you hope to gain with it that you are missing right now.


Yes tell us what you're hoping to improve.

If you want Prores internal the choices are pretty slim.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 5:54 am

An Arri Alexa comes to my mind ;-)
Seriously, what's wrong with updating the phone? Apple will even take the old one back, if you don't want the hassle of selling it yourself. The main reason I can imagine is the option to change lenses, but those don't come for free either.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Nick2021

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 6:16 am

Handling for one thing. I find it humorous to see people putting phones into cages or using tripods.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 6:27 am

Well, people put other cameras into cages as well.
But, as Alexander explained, the Sony 6100 will not give you any advantages on the recording side. And it's pretty small for handholding too.
You should also consider the codec. Most cameras in the lower price range that offer 10 bit 4:2:2 record in H.265. For that, you'll need to have a current Mac or PC with a recent Intel CPU plus DR Studio. ProRes 4:2:2 is accepted by most any machine and NLE out there. A bit more storage might be cheaper than a new computer.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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4EvrYng

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 7:00 am

Uli Plank wrote:Seriously, what's wrong with updating the phone?

IMHO that is path I would take if I had budget limitation mentioned and iPhone satisfied all of my technical requirements. And if iPhone satisfied all requirements one could argue one doesn't even need to upgrade to 15, 14 Pro is already good.

But if requirement is something that iPhone can't do then budget can't be met (FX30 is closest at $1800, plus lens).
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Nick2021

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 7:03 am

The thing is the main advantage of a phone is it's small. If you start bolting on half of Hollywood it's no longer small. Just grab a full size camera .
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 8:13 am

4EvrYng wrote:And if iPhone satisfied all requirements one could argue one doesn't even need to upgrade to 15, 14 Pro is already good.


It is, but it's major PITA to get your shots out of it.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Colourberry

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 8:36 am

If you're on a budget, check out mirrorless cameras like the Sony A6400 or Panasonic Lumix G85. They shoot in high-quality codecs similar to Apple Prores 422 and are great for VFX work.
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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 5:26 pm

My apologies or a late reaction, I'm just came home form work

@RCModelreviews
I agree with you 100%. But even the second hand products are way expensive. Like for example. The Sony A7 iii second hand here in the Netherlands cost around €3000. And that's more the twice what I have.

Your point of the camcorder is option, only I never look at it. But I assume I can’t take pictures with it


@Uli Plank
Is the camera of iPhone 15 Pro that much better than the iPhone 14 Pro?
I don’t mind to keep using a phone. But at the same time, I do like to experience a dlsr or a mirror less camera.


@4EvrYng
The reason that I want to upgrade is, that I hear & read that the dlsr or mirror less camera have much better quality video and photo then a phone. Because the bigger lens it has. Those devices are made for this kind of task. That's what I hear and read. I still have my question marks about it.

When they introduced the Apple Prores 422, and when I have experience it. I was blow away how easy it was for my PC to edit the footage. But I read Prores is more optimized for a mac. And I’m using Windows 11 pro. So I was wondering and want to experience how Xavc video codec will run within DR 18.5 on Windows 11 pro. Hopefully that XAVC will work better than Prores on Windows 11 machine and so I can reach my goal which is improving my video quality and my work flow

Can you also explain to what log means and what it does.


@Nick2021
My aim is that my video quality and my work flow will be improve within the budget that I have (€1000 to €1200).


@colorberry
I will look into suggesting camera's


The option to upgrade what I read as far are:
iPhone upgrade (iPhone 14 pro to iPhone 15 pro)
Sony A6400
Panasonic lumix G85
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4EvrYng

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 05, 2024 6:44 pm

Uli Plank wrote:
4EvrYng wrote:And if iPhone satisfied all requirements one could argue one doesn't even need to upgrade to 15, 14 Pro is already good.

It is, but it's major PITA to get your shots out of it.

Agreed, getting footage off my 13 is an equivalent to root canal work with no anesthetic pain, that is the main reason I keep wanting 15.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Mar 06, 2024 12:08 am

Jerry J Legend wrote:Is the camera of iPhone 15 Pro that much better than the iPhone 14 Pro?
I don’t mind to keep using a phone.

Not the camera, just the connection to get your clips out of it.

Jerry J Legend wrote:When they introduced the Apple Prores 422, and when I have experience it. I was blow away how easy it was for my PC to edit the footage. But I read Prores is more optimized for a mac. And I’m using Windows 11 pro. So I was wondering and want to experience how Xavc video codec will run within DR 18.5 on Windows 11 pro. Hopefully that XAVC will work better than Prores on Windows 11 machine and so I can reach my goal which is improving my video quality and my work flow

Can you also explain to what log means and what it does.

ProRes is easy on either platform, but recent Macs have specialised chips for it, making it even easier.
XAVC will be worse on Windows if it is recorded in 10 bit and you don't have a recent Intel CPU, and it'll work only work in Studio. On the Mac, it's faster with recent models.

And log? It'll give you better grading capabilities for high contrast situations. In an iPhone it'll avoid image manipulations by Apple. Disadvantage: you'll need to grade it, if you want it to look nice.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Mar 06, 2024 1:55 am

Jerry J Legend wrote:The reason that I want to upgrade is, that I hear & read that the dslr or mirrorless camera have much better quality video and photo than a phone.

My aim is that my video quality and my work flow will be improve within the budget that I have (€1000 to €1200).

Does mirrorless produce better quality than an iPhone? That is VERY debatable and answer is: Yes. No. Maybe, it depends. Just like one can’t say F1 is a better car than a compact, and compact better than SUV, in every possible way in every possible situation it will depend on which tool is a best fit for a task at hand.

Which lens for my Sony FX30 can give me as wide field of view as ultrawide on my iPhone? I don’t know of one. Can mirrorless give me as big depth of field as iPhone when that is what I need? I don’t believe so (on the flip side iPhone can’t give me as shallow DOF when that is what I want). Is sensor in mirrorless camera better for low light situations? In general yes, but that also calls for fast lens (expensive), in turn creating shallow DOF, while iPhone will give me bigger DOF with equally fast lens, which might hit sweet spot. And so on.

So far I haven’t heard you name a single thing that you _NEED_ that iPhone can’t do, it more sounds like a lust for better than what you already have after somebody made generalized statement. If process improvement is your goal iPhone footage is just fine, I have seen plenty of examples of great work from it.

Jerry J Legend wrote: Can you also explain to what log means and what it does.

If you look up articles on log recording they will explain it much better than I can but my quick and dirty oversimplification is: It is an approach that allows for recording of bigger dynamic range. Downside of it is that user needs to know how to record and edit particular log type their camera uses. In turn it isn’t beginner friendly so that is another area where using iPhone in default mode might have an advantage over “better” camera, iPhone will try to automatically squeeze biggest dynamic range and grade footage to look its best SOOC for you.

Jerry J Legend wrote:I was wondering and want to experience how Xavc video codec will run within DR 18.5 on Windows 11 pro.

Sony has 3 codecs (depending on model): XAVC HS, XAVC S, and XAVC SI. Each one has its quality/storage/performance pros and cons. It is impossible to say will you find performance with them acceptable (not just because people have very different machines but also because what is acceptable is very personal criteria) but on my machine (which might be slower than yours) I find work with HS acceptably slow/fast as long as my footage is 30fps or less, bearable at 60fps as long as I tune things in DR, and SI fast enough (for me) even at 60fps. I encourage you to find some downloadable footage to experiment with and decide for yourself.

Jerry J Legend wrote:The option to upgrade what I read as far are:

Sony A6400

If you end up deciding to exceed your budget I encourage you to look into A6700 for just $200 more than A6400.
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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostWed Mar 06, 2024 7:17 pm

@uli Plank
Hum that’s a good point. I struggle a lot with getting my footage out my iPhone 14 Pro.
In that cause is Apple prores a better option then XAVC. Which makes my deciding go out to upgrading my iPhone to an other iPhone.

Is log also possible on a iPhone 14 Pro

@4EvrYing
Your advice is clear, I understand it.

I think the best upgrade is that I sell my iPhone 14 Pro and buy the IPhone 15 Pro or buy iPhone 14 Pro max with bigger storage. I will aim for the 1 TB
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Re: New Camera

PostWed Mar 06, 2024 7:40 pm

Jerry J Legend wrote:Is log also possible on a iPhone 14 Pro

No. Some 3rd party iPhone apps have their own log but to get Apple's own one you need 15 Pro (Max).

Jerry J Legend wrote:I think the best upgrade is that I sell my iPhone 14 Pro and buy the IPhone 15 Pro or buy iPhone 14 Pro max with bigger storage.

Keep in mind 15 Pro (Max) can record to external SSD while 14 can't.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 1:12 am

Apple's internal storage is very expensive, and external SSDs work perfectly fine with the 15 Pro or Pro Max, as long as they don't draw too much power. Something like the Samsung T5 is perfect.

There are only two important points between the two models: the 3x vs the 5x lens and the battery. The battery capacity is somewhat lower in the Pro, but the 3x lens is better for video. IMHO, 120mm equivalent is too long for handheld video. Of course, you can put it on a tripod, if tele appeals to you.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 2:32 am

Uli Plank wrote:There are only two important points between the two models: the 3x vs the 5x lens and the battery. The battery capacity is somewhat lower in the Pro, but the 3x lens is better for video. IMHO, 120mm equivalent is too long for handheld video.

Uli, are you aware of any video quality comparisons between 3x on Pro and Max? 3x on Max being digital zoom rather than the lens is what turned me off from upgrading.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 3:23 am

My wife wanted her phone to be smaller, so she has the Pro. Sometimes we swap, since she’s more into photography and I’m into filming.
3x from the true lens in the Pro is a tad better than the zoomed version in the Max, but not worlds apart. 2x is equally very good in either one when filming.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 3:33 am

Uli Plank wrote:My wife wanted her phone to be smaller, so she has the Pro. Sometimes we swap, since she’s more into photography and I’m into filming.
3x from the true lens in the Pro is a tad better than the zoomed version in the Max, but not worlds apart. 2x is equally very good in either one when filming.

Thank you!
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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 9:04 am

@4Evrying
I thought that recording to a external ssd also is possible on a 14 Pro. My have 256Gb. And yesterday I look up a iPhone 14/15 Pro Max 512Gb or 1 Tb. I was shock of the price. The cheapest is €1300. Maybe it’s better off for me to buy a external ssd. And record directly on it.

@ Uli Plank
Zoom is not that important to me. So I think I stick with my 14 Pro and buy a converter lighting to usb c and buy a samsung T5 2 TB.
I think that this option will be the best.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostThu Mar 07, 2024 9:21 am

Forget it, that's too slow.
If you really need a new camera, check the used market for photo hybrids, as already suggested. But be aware that anything recording similar or better quality may need a computer upgrade. ProRes is easy on the machine!
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Mar 08, 2024 1:30 am

Jerry J Legend wrote: I thought that recording to a external ssd also is possible on a 14 Pro.

I am under impression that it can’t due to speed limitations of 14’s Lightning port, which is equivalent to USB 2.0 (around 40-ish MB/sec), while ProRes requires more than that (https://support.apple.com/en-us/109041).

Jerry J Legend wrote:And yesterday I look up a iPhone 14/15 Pro Max 512Gb or 1 Tb. I was shock of the price. The cheapest is €1300. Maybe it’s better off for me to buy a external ssd. And record directly on it.

Is that €1300 after you sold / traded in your current one or you forgot to take that into account?

Jerry J Legend wrote: I think that this option will be the best.

There is also a third, maybe even better, option: Cool down your urge to just get anything as long as it meets your budget and instead keep using what you already have while saving the money toward something that will make true difference, like FX30 or A6700. Otherwise you could find yourself unhappy because you didn’t get everything you hoped for and are now stuck with it out of the money. In the meantime you could explore 3rd party iPhone video apps.

Also, I suggest you re-evaluate your insistence on using ProRes and not using x265, whether you have a real need for the former or not. Yes, ProRes will produce technically better file and yes, ProRes will be easier on your machine _BUT_:

a) People could argue that vast majority of viewers watching iPhone’s 4K x265 file won’t consider it “low quality”.

b) Many people (myself included) work with iPhone’s x265 files on machines that are, I believe, weaker than yours. It takes some configuration tuning and it isn’t as fast as ProRes but IMO it isn’t unacceptable either, it is still within reason. So I suspect if we can do it you too should be able to do it.

In turn you might be paying price to using ProRes (for extra recording storage, transfer time, and archival storage) unnecessarily.

Whatever you end up doing I hope you end up happy with your choice.
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Jerry J Legend

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Mar 08, 2024 8:36 pm

The 1300 euro is the price of a sealed second hand. The iPhone is not active so it means i also have a year warranty

I think I just hold my urge for a bit more and save a bit more money for a FX30.
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4EvrYng

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Re: New Camera

PostFri Mar 08, 2024 10:03 pm

Jerry J Legend wrote:I think I just hold my urge for a bit more and save a bit more money for a FX30.

I have FX30 and I'm satisfied with it so far. Just beware it doesn't have EVF so it isn't a good fit for photography, if you need good hybrid A6700 and A7IV are your alternatives.

While you are saving money for one of them there is plenty of SGamut3.Cine+SLog3 samples on the Web you can download and practice with, approach is same regardless of which one of the models you end up with.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New Camera

PostSat Mar 09, 2024 3:06 am

Definitely try such original footage to see if your computer can handle it.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Shawn Miller

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Re: New Camera

PostMon Mar 11, 2024 12:19 am

Jerry J Legend wrote: So meaning selling my iPhone 14 Pro and buying A real camera to shoot my video and edit the VFX on to it.


What kind of VFX tasks are you doing (3D tracking, keying, roto)? I think you're right to want to capture in ProRes or some other less compressed codec. I would consider a ZCam E2 with an inexpensive SLR Magic lens and a Portkeys monitor over an iPhone (for VFX work). I would also consider (or maybe prefer) a Pocket Cinema Camera 4k with an inexpensive lens over an iPhone or anything that doesn't record internal raw or ProRes. The Sony cameras are also good if you don't mind XAVC.

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Darko Djerich

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Mar 12, 2024 2:48 am

Shawn Miller wrote:
Jerry J Legend wrote: So meaning selling my iPhone 14 Pro and buying A real camera to shoot my video and edit the VFX on to it.


What kind of VFX tasks are you doing (3D tracking, keying, roto)? I think you're right to want to capture in ProRes or some other less compressed codec. I would consider a ZCam E2 with an inexpensive SLR Magic lens and a Portkeys monitor over an iPhone (for VFX work). I would also consider (or maybe prefer) a Pocket Cinema Camera 4k with an inexpensive lens over an iPhone or anything that doesn't record internal raw or ProRes. The Sony cameras are also good if you don't mind XAVC.

Shawn



+1

iPhones and other smart phones only complicate things in the era when compared to professional cameras which are in the same size.

Vlogging, Tik Tok, FB and Youtube content, big Yes !

Theatrical releases and high end production, big No! Yes it can be done, but IMO it is a compromise in many ways, like overheating, media management, dynamic range /latitude (even iPhone 15 Pro barely touches 5 stops of latitude) is big one, battery life and the biggest issue I have is lens selection.

bmpcc OG runs circles around any smart phone IMO same also Sigma FP does...
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RRRoger

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Apr 02, 2024 3:22 pm

John Paines wrote:
Jim Simon wrote:I think the Pocket 4K is a no-brainer here. There's nothing better under $5k.

And you might find BRAW as easy on the system as ProRes, but with smaller files and better quality. ;)


He says he only has $1200 euros for camera and lens, which probably won't buy a Pocket 4K either, but what research did you conduct, before offering the "no-brainer" above?

You've closely examined the quality and features of the Canon C70, the Panasonic S1H, various Sony and Fuji cameras all under $5K? And you analytically compared braw to various flavors of Prores?

Is "no-brainer" really the right word?
/quote]

I use ATEM mini Pro and Extreme to LiveStream.
For my work the BM Pocket 4k is best followed by cheap Panasonic GH4 and 5 cameras.
You can buy them used and MFT lens for cheap on eBay
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rick.lang

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Re: New Camera

PostTue Apr 02, 2024 4:03 pm

RRRoger wrote:… For my work the BM Pocket 4k is best...
You can buy them used and MFT lens for cheap on eBay


Best advice for the OP that can give the OP some room to add a lens. So that’s a no-brainer!

The advice, previously given, to stay with your iPhone 14 (which I’ve used on a 2 hour client ProRes shoot with 1 TB internal storage) makes a lot of sense if the OP shoots are short duration and can be handled with that phone. It’s Apple’s (and BMD’s) apps that make the most of that modest camera and sensor. The OP should read the thread on phone accessories which may help improve their results.

I’d suggest if the OP isn’t happy with these two suggestions, just continue to save money until the budget is more realistic and matches whatever equipment the OP feels is best at that time.

One must be cautious as these cinema cameras can be the tip of the iceberg in that all of the ecosystem surrounding the new camera can easily exceed the cost of the new camera.
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