A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

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BMWFan

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A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostTue Apr 07, 2020 12:31 am

Yes, I've searched and believe I know the answer to the problem I'm having....
My old VHS, VHS-C and Hi8 tapes are many years past their prime. The video cameras and VCR I'm playing the tapes on are probably out of whack also. I've captured many hours of video but most of it is all out of sync. Looking on the forum, this appears to to be a time/sync issue.

Searching the forum, there's some time correction device people usually use to successfully get this corrected (but some people have not been successful with this either). Some people have also said they've fixed the problem by going to an earlier version of some Blackmagic software called "Desktop Video" and specifically a Version 10.9.11 or 10.4.3. I've searched the web for this software but can't find it. I'm not sure it'll even work with the Intensity Pro 4K card I have.

Are there any options for me on this? I don't have a timebase correction thingy. I want to get this video captured so I can be done moving all these home videos to computer. I'd rather not buy another capture device, though I'm not sure they'd work any better. I was wondering if a cheap USB capture device might allow a little looser quality through and stay in sync, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I was hoping to find this "Desktop Video" software and try it instead. But I really do suspect that it's meant for some other capture device that's more software based than the Intensity Pro.

It seems like it might get worse when there are a lot of stops/starts when the video was originally recorded. Example - if I use a tape that had one long shot of my kids' play, it is not as bad as when I'm capturing a tape from vacation, with a lot of starts/stops.

Thanks for listening.
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BMWFan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSat Apr 11, 2020 1:07 pm

The Blackmagic support people did reply to my question I asked on their website. Here's their reply:

Based on the issue described, it sound like you are in need of a time base corrector.
Past customers have found inexpensive solutions available on eBay or Amazon.
In addition, any DVD recorder will work as a corrector if you pass the signal through.


I searched Amazon and eBay for something like this, but am not sure what I'm looking for.
I found this - https://www.amazon.com/Tendak-Composite-S-Video-Converter-Upscaler/dp/B00V2ULHBS/, but am unsure if it does any TBC functions.

I found these, but they appear to just be a different capture devices, similar in function to the Intensity. https://www.amazon.com/All-Digital-Componet-Composite-Recorder/dp/B01JWI8M5U/

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-Recorder-Editor-Software/dp/B0728CRWP9/

https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PVRC52-5-External-Capture-Recording/dp/B07FMJLQJQ/

Has anyone successfully used a device that they can recommend? I need it to have composite and component inputs. S-Video would also be nice.
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BMWFan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSat Apr 11, 2020 5:28 pm

I don't think the https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V2ULHBS/ will work.
Searching the web, I found a Hall Research TBC-100, but can't find where to buy it or how much it costs.

Also found http://www.omegamultimedia.com/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_Time_Base_Corrector.html but it's $200. More than I wanted to spend, but I suppose if I wanna play, I gotta pay.

Might there be anything cheaper out there?
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 12, 2020 11:15 am

I have good experiences in using component video output onto the Intensity Shuttle, a lot of Panasonic combo recorders, or DVD recorders have component (RCA red,green,blue) output, yes, component NOT composite.
The Intensity (Shuttle/Pro) needs a stable video input signal to start with, component video output seems to be always a rock steady video signal, i have a DMR ES35V this is a recorder combo for VHS and DVD it can play from the VHS deck to the component RCA (red,green,blue) jacks on the back, most of the time these devices are set default on RGB mode over SCART (for CRT tv's) to use the progressive mode over the RCA jacks at the back, you need to setup this in the menu settings of the combo/dvd recorder.
A dvd (hdd?) recorder (or combo) with component-out can be used as passthrough for a camcorder (player)
Hi8 tapes can also be transfered with a Digital8 camcorder/player by Firewire interface, but colours suffer this way, use your normal handycam and use the above descibed passthrough method for optimal quality.
Hi8 was THE best analog tape format there was, better than U-Matic or BetaCam versions.
Only bottleneck was sensor or lens for such Hi8 cameras, if you filmed with a semi-pro Canon Hi8 camera you where lucky in those days... end now for capturing :)

You need both the Desktop Video Setup and Media Express from BMD to capture, with the Intensity, these are the best options, in both programs you need to set the resolution, In Desktop Video Setup you need also to select the video input you are going to use

This way you don't need any TBC device, or only maybe to clean up the picture quality like noise reduction or sharpen the image.
So shop at your local thrift shop, or maybe online sellers, for a suitable device, once you spotted a device checkout for an online manual for it, for it's component video options.....

even TBC devices are no guaranty that they will work for you, you need to know what you need, they are hard to get, a pro one will cost more than $200 and a consumer model like the ATV you mention will not work, like most of those, even the wrong firmware can be fail point in such a device.

The use of converters i would not advise, although you can get a stable signal that way, (last resort option) the quality suffers,
in your case you don't need any converter, with the breakout cable you have the analog video connections you need.
(Even HDMI is mostly a source troubles to try to capture from, HDMI,(even without HDCP) needs to handshake on which resolution & frame rate settings going to be used, this is where eventualy capture from HDMI fails in the first place)
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 12, 2020 3:16 pm

A HUGE thanks to you Eric-Jan.

I didn't find the same model as you use, but did find a Toshiba SD-V392SUA for about $100.
This should work OK, right?

It has Component out, but only Composite input. I'll be able to use the VCR player of this Toshiba for my VHS and VHS-C tapes, but will have to use the composite input for my Hi8 camera to connect to.
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 12, 2020 6:33 pm

No, not on this one, i just read the manual for the SD-V392SUA the component output is only for the DVD player.
This device name is also named as a "DVD player and VCR"
a quote from the manual:
You cannot make the progressive scanning mode active in
following cases.
– The unit is in the VCR mode.
– The disc is played back in the DVD mode.
– The S-VIDEO/COMPONENT video selector switch is set to
S-VIDEO position.


So this is really like they say: a DVD player and VCR,
It does not say "DVD VHS recorder"

Like i said, most Panasonic models that are real combo's or dvd-recorder, are best to use.
also cheap old china dvd recorders will work, as long as they have component output, some have also SCART connectors, in the manual of such device you can read hints for this, although quality is obviously less of the china made devices, but they have many options, multi tv system, and region free for dvd discs.
i hope your next find will be the one, success !
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 12, 2020 8:22 pm

Thanks again Eric-Jan, for saving me the pain of buying one that won't work.

How about this model? Toshiba D-KR10
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/32852 ... e=2#manual
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 12, 2020 8:48 pm

BMWFan wrote:Thanks again Eric-Jan, for saving me the pain of buying one that won't work.

How about this model? Toshiba D-KR10
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/32852 ... e=2#manual


Yes, this looks more like it ! you can use this recorder as a good passthrough for your VHS player or camcorder on the input, and use the component out on the Intensity component in (breakout cable)
Be sure you get a working infrared remote control with it because you have to get into it's setup menu(s) to set the progressive mode for the component output.

there's a somewhat better (bad photocopy) user manual also on ManualsLib.
Most of the time by setting the progressive mode, other outputs are disabled, keep that in mind... if you dont have a monitor/tv able to view by component video, you can't set back settings, is my guess....
(I now see there's a "safeguard" for not getting stuck by changing modes...)
Last edited by Eric-Jan on Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 4:27 am

Eric-Jan - You are a genius.
Thanks for the help on this. Capturing this way is working perfectly.

I tried the Progressive Scan feature, but only get a black screen with it turned on.

But capturing is great now. I can even turn on the "stop when dropped frame is detected" but it just keeps going perfectly, with Audio and Video in sync.

But now I have to capture all these tapes again.

Thanks for the assistance.
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 8:18 am

Thank you for reporting this ! I'm very glad that I could help you with this, did you try all the frame rates for progressive mode ? Desktop Video Setup & Media Express, in both this apps the resolution and frame rate, in progressive, must be set at the same correct value.

(for NTSC you should set 525p59.94 NTSC for PAL you should set 625p50 PAL
I guess you now have these settings to it's interlaced version, my guess is the frame rate is different and not available in the BMD software)

Because to find the right de-interlace settings in software is sometimes not that easy, most of the time this will be yadif...

But it is a great improvement you have this working, nice !

Yes, it's a bit of a struggle to get things working, also when you do a startup next time when you restart your system, sometimes settings have changed, so I check this each time, but then it works perfect !
And it saves you the hunt for TBC equipment.
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:09 pm

Regarding the progressive setting in the DVD recorder.

When I set the DVD recorder to Progressive, I can't get the correct aspect ratio in the BM options. First, it's tricky to get the Progressive setting to work with BM in the first place. And actually, I'm not sure I really am getting it to work in Progressive mode.

So I'll just capture in standard NTSC format. I'm not sure it really matters since the video quality is pretty bad anyway.

One other question, should I set BM to capture in Anamorphic 16:9 if I set the output of the DVD recorder to 16:9? Or leave it at 4:3?

My options in the DVD recorder are:
4:3 Letter Box
4:3 Pan & Scan
16:9 Wide
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 2:39 pm

Well, after capturing a 2-hour Hi8 tape, the A/V did get out of sync toward the end, but not as bad as before.
I suppose I'll have to break up a single tape in to multiple segments. Maybe that will help.
But, no dropped frames now.
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 2:50 pm

My findings sofar with my equipment is, that it doesn't matter to set the aspect ratio's
because this "only" sets switch "flags" that switch equipment in to a mode for 16:9 or 4:3, it doesn't change the video signal itself, so you correct this manualy on the equipment if this is not automated.
You must keep in mind, that older equipment first did not "know" of any aspect ratio, so, example: you feed an "old" 4:3 signal into a 16:9 device, and the 4:3 video will be stretched to the 16:9 format, (or visa versa) you will see circles that show up as elliptical shapes.
What i will do is, i take screen captures how you should set the settings for your tv system NTSC? or PAL ?
and wil send these to you as pictures or in a PDF document.
It's also handy to have a monitor connected directly so you can see video in any mode, when you change settings, so you can see the menu's of the/any recorder while you "adjust" in any mode...

btw. if audio is out of sync, you do have dropped frames :( but at least you have improvement.
the sync issue could also mean there's a conversion "going on" during capture, or a frame rate mis match.
what do you mean with BM options ? you are using other apps then Desktop Video Setup and Media Express ?

Aspect ratio is easy to correct afterwards that should not be a problem, you can do this when you convert to MP4
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)
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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 4:49 pm

BM options -- I guess I should have said Media Express capture options. I have to set it to NTSC for it to capture any video. None of the other options work (and I've tried them all, while setting the DVD recorder to progressive - with no success).

I suppose, the dropped frames really just moved from the BM card/capture to the input section of the DVD recorder. At least Media Express doesn't stop capturing because it's not seeing dropped frames.

I'm splitting up the tape captures into smaller chunks....as in stopping and re-starting the capture when the video changes to different days or different subjects. Maybe splitting this up into smaller chunks won't give the A/V as much time to get out of sync.

I can see now why it costs so much to have the professionals transfer home video to digital.
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Eric-Jan

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Re: A/V sync problems Intensity Pro 4K

PostSun Apr 19, 2020 7:56 pm

Yes, i guess the only options are the i or p options in the system/ME settings.
I guess where a new recording starts on the video tape, or a gap between recordings, is a to big sync loss,
you should stop capture before such a event, that is normal, when you do that, there should be no out of sync,
or dropped frames problems that way.
The aspect ratio is also no problem ?
The way i capture video tapes, is: at the end point where i want to stop the capture i reset the tape/time counter to zero on the vcr, you rewind the tape to the start where you want to start your capture, when it is a time counter you will see the capture time lenght (negative value) you start tape, start capture (take a margin in account) and check now and then for the time counter to reach zero, you also see your capture time which is still to go.
Or did you already figure this one out :)

Commercial companies don't do this with the dedication like we do this, but ask too much money for it,
Don't know about "professionals" in this, it's mostly the hobby people, like all of us, who put more time in it or have more experience doing it, and it can only be done in real time...

like to hear of your progress,

success !
equipment/software used:
UltraStudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Shuttle, ATEM Mini, Assist 6G. Davinci Resolve 15 > Sierra, Resolve 16 > Catalina. Media Express, MacX Video Converter Pro, UniConverter (Using Apple OS on MacBook Pro hardware)

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