Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

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jevans

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Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 7:39 pm

I shoot an educational green screen show for my school. Right now, I'm using my iPhone 6, and I'd like to upgrade to get a better video to key in post. It is not a live show, so I just need quality video with better color suppression that I can download onto my desktop and import into my video editing software that I use (VSDC). My question is two parts:

1. Is this a quality green screen camera to improve my videos (right now, I have it pretty well done with my iPhone, but there is green spill around the subject that I just can't get rid of in production, and I am almost positive it is the camera I'm using).

2. If this is a good camera option to upgrade my green screen shows, what are some lens suggestions for the MFT mount?

All help is greatly appreciated!
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 11:58 pm

Since yiu are using an IPhone, have you considered a S16 format csmrs, like the BM Micro Cinema or the Micro Studio 4K Camera. Are you doing the chroma key in post production, or do you want to pull a live key? If you are working the key in post production, the Micro Cinema camera would work fine.

It is also a MFT mount, and I like using the Panasonic Leica Primes and the 12-60 Zoom with my Micro Camera, the actual focal,length of a prime lens is going to depend on how much area of coverage you want and the distance from the camers to the subject. A 20 to 25mm lens is great for a head and shoulder shot, while a shot of two or more people would require a 15mm lens.

Yiu need to provide more details of what yiu are trying to do.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 9:09 am

Green spill around the subject is often a combination of poor lighting and not enough settings in post..

Lighting a greenscreen the right way is tough!! There are numouris videos out there with advice.. But key is to light the green equal!! Having light and dark spots in there makes it already very difficult so you need difuse flood light and a lot of it..

Also need to light your subject well enough.. From both sides and the front. Also need to have a backlight on your subject to create that crisp sharp edge..

So greenscreen in a nutshell.. You run out of lights faster then you think.. :lol: :lol:
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Multicam Facilities ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Truck, Dual ATEM 8K, 120x120 Videohub, 12x Hyperdeck 4K Pro, Ursa Broadcast 4K G2, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control and seperate Tally on SMPTE
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 4:41 pm

Yes Daniel, I agree lighting is important. That said, I have had frizzy hair become very problematic to get from casting green shadows. But, even with minimal (led soft panels) I got one of our best chroma keys (live with a Tricaster) with a Ursa 4K, in HD mode. We got the same results with the Micro Studio 4K Camera also. So I am thinking the faster sensor readout times and higher resolution IQ, are helping improve the key quality.

So a good camera is just as important, the better the camera, the easier the chroma key will be. The higher the image is compressed, as,in IPhone or DSLR recorded images, the more difficult a green screen chrom key will be to get a good mask, the edge between the subject and green background needs to be as sharp (not jagged edge from compressed, low res cameras), to get a good separation.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Scott Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 5:48 pm

Jevans, lots of good advice on here. When it comes to prioritizing the things that make a good chroma keyable recording, my opinion is that first is lighting, second is the distance between the subject and the screen, third is the camera, fourth is the recording medium, and fifth is lens and focal length. That said, lighting is king, and 3-5 are not very big difference in importance. They are all pretty important to get it to work well.

Smooth, even lighting, with separate lighting for the subject and the key wall is what you want. The wall should be lit separately from the subject, and should be as evenly lit both top to bottom as well as side to side as possible, and with as low a level of lighting as is possible and still have it lit to achieve the evenness.

Distance from your subject and the wall does a few things, it makes that separate lighting mentioned above easier to do, it reduces ambient reflected colored light hitting your subject, and it adds depth of field, making the key wall more out of focus, and therefore smoother and without visible imperfections.

The quality of the camera certainly makes a difference. The higher resolution and quality of the sensor, the better the image, and thus the better the key.

The camera quality and record format quality are sometimes hard to separate, as we often record in the camera. But some cameras might record in a highly compressed format, while having an output signal that is far superior and is not compressed. External recorders that record in 10-bit video, and in a better quality, professional compression schemes, will certainly key better. An 8-bit h.264 recording will not key anywhere near as well as a 10-bit prores422. And prores 422 will not do as well as prores 444 or uncompressed. Any time you throw away data through compression or color sampling or bit depth, you are decreasing the ease and quality of the chroma key. And of course, if your camera doesn't have the quality on the chip to start with, the record format won't add it back in, so we are back to camera quality.

The last bit is the lens, and is related to the second point about distance from the screen. Depth of field makes things much easier by making the background out of focus, and you just cannot get good depth of field from a tiny lens on a phone. Actually, I am amazed that they do as well as they do, faking depth of field on some of these built in video effect apps. But in the end, good glass and a reasonably large aperture can make a big difference.

I might also add that the quality of the key wall itself, can have a big effect. A concrete wall painted green might not work well, a green colored paper roll might work better, and a nice professional keying material that has good light absorption can make things much easier. Ideally your key wall is unblemished, smooth, and has very little reflective light. Ideally, it should look green (or blue, if that is your color), but not shine or cause the rest of the room to have a colored cast.

But whatever you do to fix a chroma key, you start with lighting. And perfectly lighting a key isn't an easy task. But the camera and recording are not far behind in importance.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 6:00 pm

Well put Daniel, lighting is king. ;) And using 10-bitt, 4.2.2 or higher video source will make your key Estonia pull and eliminate green casts, if the lighting is set correctly, and as Daniel said, lighting is the secret ingredient here.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Scott Smith

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 6:12 pm

There is an old adage, "You never finish the lighting, you just find a place to stop." So, "perfect" lighting will almost always elude you. You just get as close as you can and find a place to stop.

That said, I suspect "perfect" lighting recorded on an iPhone would key better than "pretty good" lighting on a nicer camera/recorder setup. But since "perfect" is nearly unattainable, the camera setup can really make a difference.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Lee Gauthier

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Re: Blackmagic Design Cinema Camera and Green Screen

PostFri Mar 30, 2018 3:52 am

Many good suggestions. Also consider:

* Light the greenscreen one stop darker than the foreground talent;

* To test screen distance, light the green screen then turn off all the foreground lights on talent. You should get a crisp black silhouette with no green spill. If the talent is illuminated by the green, they are too close to the screen.

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