Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

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mandreessen

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Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Nov 27, 2023 3:38 pm

Hi all,
I am looking for an affordable system for somewhat like documentary filming. Filming at sport events mainly. Always indoor, sometimes poor lighting. But it would be more a start and forget setting. Sometimes with a normal (35 to 50mm or so), but most often with a wide angle lense like the 6mm Laowa.
I read quite some documents, seen many descriptions and understand that I need to pay attention to the power supply and that it takes some preparation as the bmpcc is not a consumer camcorder.
Am I overengineering? Is there a simpler solution?

Thanks for any comments
Mark
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rick.lang

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Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 8:18 pm

My first reaction is that a sports documentary would require a very good zoom lens. Can you be more specific about out the particular sports that would be your subject? Big difference between covering players on a large field or ice rink than a ping-pong table or snooker table.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 1:10 am

It seems he doesn't want to operate the camera, Rick.
If I understood that right, and you want to later change the framing, I'd go for the highest resolution you can afford. If you need good focus tracking, look elsewhere, like Sony or Canon.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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rick.lang

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Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 3:29 pm

You’re right, Uli. I wasn’t paying attention to the “start and forget” comment.

In that case, you simply use the free Lens Toolkit app (f8) which will help you select the correct lens and camera to record the entire playing area if you know the dimensions of the field and where your camera will be placed. The app will show your coverage along three lines (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) with the FOV and show the near/far distances DOF given you know the f/stop of the lens.

We need more information to know if total field coverage is required or if a tracking mechanism will be best. Again what is the sport?
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Uli Plank

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostThu Nov 30, 2023 12:17 am

And how will the footage be used? Analysis of movements?
What is the resolution needed for the single target?
One player or multiple ones?
Depending on such information, you may even find better solutions, like a gimbal on a tripod with tracking.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 2:46 pm

Sorry for answering so late, was a bit ill.
I use a camcorder to film dance sport training. It is set up, positioned and should run for 1-2 hours.
Up to now I tried everything from consumer camcorders to smartphones. The angle ist not wide enough and the motion is not sharp. To be able to slow it down could be helpful. Light is always bad or acceptable at best. The bmcc4k seems to be the most affordable and adoptable solution for me.
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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 2:49 pm

rick.lang wrote:In that case, you simply use the free Lens Toolkit app (f8) which will help you select the correct lens and camera to record the entire playing area


Dancesport, 90° FOV
Thanks for that hint, will try it, when I find someone with an ipad/iphone.
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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 2:56 pm

Uli Plank wrote:And how will the footage be used? Analysis of movements?

Yes.
Uli Plank wrote:What is the resolution needed for the single target?

"Needed"? I guess, I need 640x480 but hey, 4k is nice to have.

Uli Plank wrote:One player or multiple ones?
Depending on such information, you may even find better solutions, like a gimbal on a tripod with tracking.

Yes, I looked at such solutions. Especially based on UWB you can get wonderfull exact tracking on quite some distances, even with some obstacles in between. But thats even more expensive and difficult to set up.
It's nonetheless quite a good Idea, as the workflow with the bmcc is by far more time consuming.

Thanks for your comments!
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Uli Plank

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostWed Dec 13, 2023 1:26 am

As things are now, an iPhone 15 and using the ultrawide might be the best solution.
Everything will be in focus. If the light is not too poor, that is.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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rick.lang

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Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostWed Dec 13, 2023 5:28 pm

mandreessen wrote:
rick.lang wrote:In that case, you simply use the free Lens Toolkit app (f8) which will help you select the correct lens and camera to record the entire playing area


Dancesport, 90° FOV
Thanks for that hint, will try it, when I find someone with an ipad/iphone.
Thanks for that angle. Shooting 4K DCI on the ‘mirrorless’ BMPCC4K, you would need to use a 9.5mm lens. 9mm will give you 93 degrees horizontal angle of view. 10mm will give you 87 degrees angle of view. 12mm will give you 77 degrees.

If you were shooting on the new BMCC6K open gate, a 18mm lens will give you exactly 90 degrees horizontal angle of view. If you can swing it, that’s the best choice in camera and prime lens I suspect.

If you’re studying motion, you need to decide if you should be shooting 50 frames per second or 60 frames per second. I think if you need that open gate, 50 fps will suffice.

The reason the BMCC6K is the best choice is the open gate aspect ratio is 3:2. If you’re using that for sport dancing you’ll appreciate having the extra vertical room.

The 18mm lens will be an excellent choice to allow you to shoot close to your dancers, but you will need skill to move appropriately to follow the dancer. At a distance of only 6’ from your subject, your vertical coverage is 8’ and your horizontal coverage is 12’. If those tolerances seem too close, back off to something like 8’ and still get close to individual performers. If sometimes the dancers are in a larger group, for example, a cheer squad, then shooting from a distance of 15’, you’ll cover 30’ by 20’ which should be enough for a tower.
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RubenS89

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostThu Dec 14, 2023 2:51 pm

rick.lang wrote:If you were shooting on the new BMCC6K open gate, a 18mm lens will give you exactly 90 degrees horizontal angle of view. If you can swing it, that’s the best choice in camera and prime lens I suspect.

If you’re studying motion, you need to decide if you should be shooting 50 frames per second or 60 frames per second. I think if you need that open gate, 50 fps will suffice.


The BMCC6K doesn't shoot 50fps open gate , right? I thought max 36 fps.
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rick.lang

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostThu Dec 14, 2023 5:34 pm

RubenS89 wrote:
The BMCC6K doesn't shoot 50fps open gate , right? I thought max 36 fps.


Apologies, Ruben, too much multi-tasking going on in my noodle!
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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSat Dec 16, 2023 5:51 pm

rick.lang wrote:Shooting 4K DCI on the ‘mirrorless’ BMPCC4K, you would need to use a 9.5mm lens. 9mm will give you 93 degrees horizontal angle of view. 10mm will give you 87 degrees angle of view. 12mm will give you 77 degrees.


I looked at the bmpcc6k and it's nice but a bit too pricy for me. I opted for a used 4k and a 9mm lense.
The 9mm laowa seems distortion free enough ;-)
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rick.lang

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Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSat Dec 16, 2023 6:41 pm

Very good. I shoot that and am quite attached to its flexibility. At only 6’ from your subjects, your FOV is 12’8” across and 6’8” high which will be fine if you’re following a one or two subjects. If you were shooting cheer with a large group and human towers, you might need to back off to up to 20’ away. With such a wide angle lens, shooting with the lens at f/2.8 focused to say 6’ then everything from 3’4” to 28’7” will be in focus. The hyperfocal distance is just over 7’6”.

Enjoy that amazing little camera.
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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSun Dec 17, 2023 7:53 pm

rick.lang wrote:Very good. I shoot that and am quite attached to its flexibility. At only 6’ from your subjects, your FOV is 12’8” across and 6’8” high which will be fine if you’re following a one or two subjects. If you were shooting cheer with a large group and human towers, you might need to back off to up to 20’ away. With such a wide angle lens, shooting with the lens at f/2.8 focused to say 6’ then everything from 3’4” to 28’7” will be in focus. The hyperfocal distance is just over 7’6”.

Enjoy that amazing little camera.

Thanks a lot Rick!
That's quite a lot of information - please bear in mind that I in no way intend to be be a reasonably good film maker. Just good enough will suffice. I guess in near future I will get a second lense, probably a zoom just to cover the rest of the rare scenarios.
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rick.lang

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSun Dec 17, 2023 8:00 pm

Trust me, the demands of your clients and your determination to do it better will quickly make you a “reasonably good”videographer. Keep in touch with the forum. Best wishes.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Dec 18, 2023 6:58 am

How about renting the camera and the lens just for the project? With low light, you might want to get a Sony. If you stay with BMD, go with a very fast lens. Meanwhile to do some analysis before you rent (or buy), download Cadrage and the F8 Lens Toolkit so you can figure out what combination of options you need. Good luck.
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mandreessen

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostTue Dec 19, 2023 3:26 pm

Good advise, thanks, but too late. Ordered a bmpcc4k and a Laowa lens. Should arrive these days.
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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostTue Dec 19, 2023 10:03 pm

mandreessen wrote:Good advise, thanks, but too late. Ordered a bmpcc4k and a Laowa lens. Should arrive these days.

No worries. It’s always nice to have new toys. :D
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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostMon Feb 12, 2024 1:04 am

Do you have any feedback, how is it working out for you?
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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 4:42 pm

I am a bit mad at myself that I didn't went this route long ago.
I use a 10mm Laowa because I cost quite less and it's guessed FOV of 82° ist perfect for me. Couldn't be any better. Rendering, Colour grading and such prooved to be far more complicated than thought. At some point I really was close to using other than film mode. Lighting introduces unexpected difficulties - mainly top lights, floor perfectly illuminated, people not so :-(
The process from cutting, colour grading and delivery still takes too much time. Especially rendering is still painstankingly slow. A better suitable GPU (currently a cheap AMD) should fix that.
And yes, raw eats storage as BMPCC eats Battery ;-)

But hey - I do get the results I always longed for and never quite got. And 4k@50fps+ is great for my purpose!
I can slow down and really analyse movements.

Maybe I will try to get a decent training on colour grading. The online courses are interesting but are confusing as they often contradict one another.
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rick.lang

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 5:21 pm

The duration to generate renders very much depends upon the various things you are trying to do. For example, if your images are looking good you may not need to do Noise Reduction or other effects. It’s your choice in a way. That said, some of my renders are just left to run overnight so the duration isn’t a concern when I’m asleep.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Is the BMPCC 4k the right choice for me anyway?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 12:35 am

mandreessen wrote:Maybe I will try to get a decent training on colour grading. The online courses are interesting but are confusing as they often contradict one another.


The PDF (with additional footage samples) called "DaVinci-Resolve-18-Colorist-Guide" is really helpful.
Get it here for free: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... e/training
(Scroll down)
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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