Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

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Jon Hustead

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Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 6:06 pm

Referencing this post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191353

In it Tim describes an issue with Angelbird cards, which I have a set of 1TB. I've run into occasional dropped frames with my 12k OLPF on Q5 24p, which should be well within its speed. Usually it's the first time I hit record or two, and then it'll start working. Makes me nervous! Haven't had any issues with my old Transcend 256gb cards.

Has anyone else with these cards had issues? Trying to get a sense of how they're failing for other people. If it's just a dropped frame and I have to re-roll, that's maybe something I can deal with. If people are losing whole cards, I can't use em.

I contacted Blackmagic support and they told me they'd never heard of the problem and had no information about it. When Tim says Blackmagic is working with Angelbird, is that like... real? I've also contacted Angelbird and they're extremely slow to respond so I'm awaiting any further info there.

I'm out of the return period for B&H so trying to figure out if I'm SOL with these $1000 worth of C-Fast cards that were on the recommended list when I bought them.
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John Brawley

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 6:27 pm

I’ve had the same problem.

It’s an Angelbird issue. They initially were replacing them but I have also since heard that they are refusing to do so.

It seems to only happen in Slot 1 for some reason.

You don’t loose a card. It just fails to mount or work as expected.

JB
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Tom Roper

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 6:32 pm

It seems all 12k media have been removed from list. No mention of UMP 12k.

*Never Mind, found it.*
Last edited by Tom Roper on Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jon Hustead

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 6:36 pm

What cards are you using now John? Did you just bin the Angelbirds?
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Mike Potton

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 7:38 pm

John Brawley wrote:It seems to only happen in Slot 1 for some reason.


This speaks to the issue being a little more than just the Angel Birds. I own two UMP’s G1&G2, the G2 had exactly the same issue with slot 1 with a 256 Lexar card. The G1 worked fine, suggesting the newer UMP style bodies have some kind of unknown difference between slots.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 9:04 pm

Mike Potton wrote:
John Brawley wrote:It seems to only happen in Slot 1 for some reason.


This speaks to the issue being a little more than just the Angel Birds. I own two UMP’s G1&G2, the G2 had exactly the same issue with slot 1 with a 256 Lexar card. The G1 worked fine, suggesting the newer UMP style bodies have some kind of unknown difference between slots.



I haven’t used lexars but across half a dozen G2 and G1 bodies I’ve never experienced any issues with Slot 1 on angel bird or sandisk. I’m willing to bet I’ve shot more hours on more bodies than just about anyone :-)

JB

EDIT- it does seem to be a batch issue. Earlier copies of angel bird 1tb cards work fine.
Last edited by John Brawley on Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Nov 28, 2023 9:10 pm

Jon Hustead wrote:What cards are you using now John? Did you just bin the Angelbirds?



I routinely shoot dual card for everything so I just use the angel bird 1tb in the second card slot.

Lately ProGrade cards have been good in CFE and CFAST.

JB
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 1:41 am

Hmm, doesn't look like the Prograde 1TB cards are available anymore, just the 640. Can you mix sizes?
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 8:02 pm

Jon Hustead wrote:When Tim says Blackmagic is working with Angelbird, is that like... real? I've also contacted Angelbird and they're extremely slow to respond so I'm awaiting any further info there.


As Angelbird is located in my country, Austria and Covid is heavy on the rise, they might got hit with a lot of stuff absence. Together with black friday, cyber monday they might got swamped.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostWed Nov 29, 2023 8:17 pm

Could be! I have started to get responses but it's the slow back and forth of asking to test in other cameras, drivedx reports, etc. that they have to go through.

Does anyone have Tim on speeddial to see if there's any possible solution with Angelbird? The post made it seem like there was some communication between the two. It'd be great if both companies could put something out. Angelbird still has the 1TB cards listed as recommended for the 12k.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostThu Nov 30, 2023 9:43 pm

Oof, sorry for the double post. Angelbird says the cards DriveDX looks fine, but they'd be willing to replace the cards anyway. But they also said that they're not sure it'll help and if it's a problem with all of their newer cards I'm wondering if it's worth attempting the return.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostThu Nov 30, 2023 10:02 pm

Jon, if you already have suitable alternatives, it might be best (and less frustrating) to wait until the smoke clears and BMD adds the Angelbird cards back to the approved list.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostThu Nov 30, 2023 11:10 pm

Unfortunately I do need more cards if these ones won't work — ideally another 2TB worth which is a bit of a bummer! I may have to do as John mentioned and just roll with them in the second slot and hope for the best for now.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 12:20 am

Jon Hustead wrote:Oof, sorry for the double post. Angelbird says the cards DriveDX looks fine, but they'd be willing to replace the cards anyway. But they also said that they're not sure it'll help and if it's a problem with all of their newer cards I'm wondering if it's worth attempting the return.


I would move to another brand.

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 12:20 am

Jon Hustead wrote:Unfortunately I do need more cards if these ones won't work — ideally another 2TB worth which is a bit of a bummer! I may have to do as John mentioned and just roll with them in the second slot and hope for the best for now.


That’s been working for me. It’s specific to slot 1 i believe. But it’s not ideal.

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 1:52 am

An alternative might be cards from Wise Advanced. I’m still using CFast2 cards purchased several years ago. They aren’t rated quite as high as the sustained write rate of the Angelbird cards. But might be worth considering.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 2:39 am

I see the 1TB Wise cards are on sale at B&H now, but I'm feeling a little gunshy on it. Wonder if there's something about the 1TB cards that's suspect for whatever reason? Prograde doesn't make theirs anymore and now just has 320 and 640.
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Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostFri Dec 01, 2023 3:01 am

Jon, the Wise 1 TB 3500x CFast2 card is the one I use and recommend. It’s considerably reduced in price from the price I paid in April 2016.

But you certainly want to do what you are comfortable with. Something to sleep on?
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostSun Dec 03, 2023 3:45 pm

Thanks Rick, I may give em a try.

I've done more testing and a couple things:

Problem is worse in slot one, but happens in both. For me, it seems to be mostly an issue on a fresh boot. Usually I'm in 12k Q5, and if I switch to 12:1 it'll work OR if I just keep trying to record eventually it seems to stick and then keep working. Basically if I can get the constant quality to record long enough to update the record time it'll keep rolling.

Right now I'm figuring:

Angelbird has offerred to replace the cards so I'll do that.
Try a Wise 1TB as they're affordable.
If that doesn't work, look at ProGrade or Exascend, which are both quite a bit more expensive.
I'm also going to try some cheaper off brand cards that have decent reviews as the recommended media guide seems like a crapshoot anyway.

Whatever I get test it more thoroughly immediately on receipt so I can return instead of trying to RMA.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostSun Dec 03, 2023 6:41 pm

Peculiar that repeated attempts eventually works but that’s frustrating and unacceptable. Hope this is all good for you shortly.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostThu Dec 07, 2023 8:33 pm

Got a pair of the Wise 1TB cards you recommended Rick!

On first blush things are looking good. Haven't tested it much yet, but noticed that the card mount and format much, much faster than they do with the Angelbird cards — more like I'm used to with the 256GB cards I've been using for years — and haven't replicated the dropped frame issue yet.

Things might be looking up!
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 2:49 am

Allright, I know I'm talkin to myself here but maybe it'll be useful to someone. The Wise 1TB cards are reliable, but can't sustain higher write speeds. Seems like they run out of steam with codecs that use about 200 Mb/s and anything above that will drop frames. To be fair, they aren't on Blackmagic's list and unlike the Angelbird cards they mount reliably and worked great in 12k Q5 at 24.

So far the best cards are still my old Transcend 256gb ones. Next try is Exascend I think. The ProGrade cards from the list are no longer made it seems and Exascend is the next cheapest way to hit 1TB.

I'm wondering if I'd be better spending more to have a bunch of smaller cards instead of the big ones though.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 5:04 am

Jon Hustead wrote:... I've run into occasional dropped frames with my 12k OLPF on Q5 24p, which should be well within its speed. Usually it's the first time I hit record or two, and then it'll start working...


From your original post I thought you were recording 12K Q5 24 fps. You mentioned above the Wise Portable SSD 1 TB did that successfully. Not sure what you want to do. One option that might work for you is to record 8K from the 12K sensor read. There are some quality benefits doing that and you may benefit from reduced storage and reduced data rates or raising the quality to Q3 for example with the Wise SSD. Worth a try?
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 4:06 pm

Yeah 12k Q5 24 is my usual, but I wanted to be more thorough and see where the cards bread down so I used the manual's data rate table with constant bitrate to figure out what the various cards could handle. It seemed that the Wise cards seemed fine at 12k 24 Q5, but the testing was on easy scenes that were using the lower end of its variable bitrate and I'm thinking it could be a problem in a scene with a lot of detail. And it throws off what I'd be able to do for HFR.

The 8k looks pretty good, but other than faster readout 12k image is going to be nicer. The camera doesn't supersample the 12k sensor, it just only uses 8k of the pixels so it'll be noisier unfortunately.

At this point I'm still hoping to sort it. Angelbird says they're going to try sending me cards from a different batch, and I'm also going to return the Wise cards and try Exascend. If the Exascend 1TB doesn't work, I might try smaller cards and just paying more per TB. I'm curious if the big cards are just drawing a little too much power for the camera or something.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 8:22 pm

Jon Hustead wrote:I'm curious if the big cards are just drawing a little too much power for the camera or something.


I believe it *is* power related. But I know that there WAS a batch of Angelbirds that work fine. It’s only more RECENT batches that seem to have this issue.

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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostTue Dec 12, 2023 12:18 am

Jon Hustead wrote:… The 8k looks pretty good, but other than faster readout 12k image is going to be nicer. The camera doesn't supersample the 12k sensor, it just only uses 8k of the pixels so it'll be noisier unfortunately...


I missed that, so yes, get a card that will support you in all your 12K situations as the UMP12K is very focused on a great image.

It sounds like the old maxim “shoot with 12K for a better 8K only applies to post processing, not in-camera downscaling.

Looks like the option of waiting for Angelbird to find a solution for you is a good option at the end of the day.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostSun Dec 17, 2023 7:48 pm

Prograde 640GB cards appear to be working well and was able to fill both cards at the DCI 12k 60 18:1 and DCI 8k 60 8:1 that Blackmagic lists on their supported card table. So that's good. Waiting for the Exascend 1TB still and haven't received new Angelbird cards back from being sent in on RMA, will update when I do.
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Re: Issues with Angelbird C-Fast cards in 12k

PostThu Dec 21, 2023 1:54 am

Allright, likely final update from me here.

Exascend 1TB appears to work well so that'd be my recommendation for large cards at this point.

Angelbird got back a new set of cards to me and they still have the same issue. Unexpectedly, they also threw in a 512gb card that DOES work well, which was definitely cool of them and I appreciate. Not sure what to do with the 1TB cards now though. Maybe they'd work for someone with a Komodo?

In any case I'm sorted now between the Exascend, ProGrade, and the 512GB Angelbird that works. What a pain!
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