Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
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Bob Moore

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 2:52 am

Yet the past weeks consuming discussion has been centered on minutia and minor technical
details … none of which will trump art or technical expertise.

I am all in on the BM Cam app …. but I see it as a tool …. nothing worth alienating others on this forum or exceeding its minor position as a capture device with limited dynamic range and suspect VFR …
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robedge

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 3:28 am

On Thursday, Office Hours Global devoted its second hour to the Blackmagic app, There is a detailed, time-stamped index in the description. The BMD discussion starts at 1:01:15



EDIT: Start time corrected.
Last edited by robedge on Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 3:33 am

Bob Moore wrote:Kids ....
It is good but not astoundingly so …


Sorry if it's me gushing that you're referring to. For me, though, it is astounding.

I ran a lot of footage through Panaflexes and Arriflexes back in the day. The fact that I can now make equivalent visuals with something that fits in my shirt pocket is, well, astounding.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 3:58 am

On the topic of consumer camera microphones and binaural sound, this:

Last summer I was walking along an empty, rural paved road in my neighborhood, absently reviewing previously-shot footage on my phone. A Samsung at the time.

Suddenly, a car appeared right behind me, moving fast. Startled, I jumped, torn away from my innocent silent walk. Wanting to avoid being run over, I stopped dead in my tracks, jumped to the edge of the road, looked around and saw...

Nothing.

I was still alone on the empty road. The rapidly approaching speeding car was a ghost.

I'd inadvertently selected for playback a video clip that I'd shot a half hour before while practicing drive-byes. The Samsung's stereo audio had played back through my hearing aids with sufficient clarity and presence to convince me that I was about to be run over.

Underestimating these little tech miracles we call "phones" is a mistake.
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robedge

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 4:41 am

robedge wrote:On Thursday, Office Hours Global devoted its second hour to the Blackmagic app, There is a detailed, time-stamped index in the description. The BMD discussion starts at 1:01:15



Listened to the show. Excellent content with some big picture observations that, for me, are something of an eye-opener. Viewer questions start at 1:21:40

If you aren't familiar with the show, this is the website: https://officehours.global There's a Wikipedia page on the host, Alex Lindsay.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 5:42 am

Bob Moore wrote:Let the flames begin ....


No flames from me. Doesn't hurt to get a reminder from time to time.

Also appreciate Uli's typically very helpful inputs.

Regards and a big smile
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kfriis

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 6:19 am

Peter McLennan wrote:
Bob Moore wrote:Kids ....
It is good but not astoundingly so …


Sorry if it's me gushing that you're referring to. For me, though, it is astounding.

I ran a lot of footage through Panaflexes and Arriflexes back in the day. The fact that I can now make equivalent visuals with something that fits in my shirt pocket is, well, astounding.


You're absolutely right.

Yesterday I completed a series of comparisons with my Lumix S5 (nothing against this camera, I payed for it ;-). With or without Atomos ProRES RAW recordings.

Apple does a loooot of heavy lifting behind the scenes. Especially for low/available light use. Cityscapes or indoor. Also for stills (ProRAW only - but that's a personal preference. YMMV).

Some like it, others don't. Personally I'm all for it.

Carrying a 250 gram (8+ ounces) stills and video camera (including flip case) capable of reliably delivering this level of quality around is very liberating on travels, and really... the quality is more than usable; in many respects surprisingly good. Saves a lot of valuable time for the more fun parts of travel life.

My only peeve is finding a decent microphone to use as a replacement for the internal critter. Current options tend to become complicated or flimsy or both. Upping the total "carry around" weight dramatically, as well as setup time. Certainly not friendly to spontaneity.

Looking for a simple solution, just as you do. If you find one, suiting your use cases, please let me know.

Regards and rem.... ;-)
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Bob Moore

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 8:39 am

I apologize for the rant above …

I do agree that what the BM camera app offers is very good … better than my EX1R or Red One.

Its flaws are not attributable to BM … rather the inherent limitations of the Apple ecosystem which
Makes things perhaps a bit too homogenized to appeal to a broad audience.

My concern is that … when discourse is not in real-time it can get a bit brittle. I personally don’t feel that the stakes involved with an app warrant it.

Was not singling out anyone just reflecting on the whole tone of the past few days.

BTW … I am anticipating my Beastcage and rig for the phone … and much appreciate the discourse on the finer aspects of the VFR limitations of the hardware.

Autumn Advent and Christmas are some of my favorite times to film … would love to see a bit more of what we can vision with the phones.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 10:40 am

Bob Moore wrote:I apologize for the rant above …
[cut...]


No problem. We all have bad days from time to time. My own glass house is a has been...

Regards and... ahem... OK. Smile!
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kfriis

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 11:00 am

PCM and Float audio difference

I decided to check, what happened, when I selected IEEE Float (32-bit) or Linear PCM (16-bit). Most interest is of course the behaviour of the internal microphones in the iPhone.

I mounted the iPhone horizontally in a SmallRig cage on a tripod, and recorded a few seconds ProRES 422HQ in both audio modes.

I decided to test 1kHz only initially. At varying distances from the iPhone. A small Sony Bluetooth speaker was placed at the “center of the lens (24mm)”, and this resulted in a clear difference in left and right levels at a distance around 10 cm (4 inches) compared to far larger distances (around 30cm (12 inches). Or thereabout. The peak at 1kHz governs the iPhone level setting.

Red is Channel 1 and Blue is Channel 2 in the FFT samples.

PCM Distance FFT and STAT.jpg
Linear PCM statistics and FFT (large distance)
PCM Distance FFT and STAT.jpg (207.68 KiB) Viewed 89997 times


IEEE Distance FFT and STAT.jpg
IEEE Float statistics and FFT (large distance)
IEEE Distance FFT and STAT.jpg (206.12 KiB) Viewed 89997 times


Interestingly the recorded level was near identical (for both types), although the sound level was more than doubled. There is a significant “auto recording level adjustment” taking place in the iPhone, and it is clearly visible in noise levels too. Gain adjustment speed not tested.

In the FFT images, you can clearly see distortion levels (and slight differences), plus the significant difference in noise levels between IEEE Float and Linear PCM. Part of the distortion is from the speaker (naturally), so only the slight differences count.

FFT Short distance PCM and IEEE.jpg
Short distance FFT for Linear PCM and IEEE Float
FFT Short distance PCM and IEEE.jpg (227.58 KiB) Viewed 89997 times


I have made the scale larger for the short distance FFT samples, but even in the larger distance (hence lower sound pressure level at the microphones), there is a significant difference in noise level.

The test consisted of a single, 1kHz sine wave, at the same output volume. Neither speaker, nor iPhone was moved between measurements (at the same distance) and the feeder Sine Wave generator level was not altered between tests.

Since this was a very short and limited test scenario, I would not regard the results as authoritative. Only highly indicative for the actual differences in real life usage under the same circumstances.

Both FCPX (10.7) and DaVinci Resolve Studo (18.6.4) and earlier versions handle IEEE 32-bit floating point audio channels without hiccup, so… even for the internal microphones, there is a significant benefit (far lower noise) in using IEEE Float compared to Linear PCM in recordings.

Haven’t tested h265 or h264. Log should not be affected by this.

Regards and rem... ahem...
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostSun Dec 10, 2023 7:34 pm

robedge wrote:
robedge wrote:On Thursday, Office Hours Global devoted its second hour to the Blackmagic app, There is a detailed, time-stamped index in the description. The BMD discussion starts at 1:01:15


Excellent, Rob. Thanks! Some very interesting points made of interest to all BMD Camera App and iPhone video users.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 5:20 am

kfriis wrote:PCM and Float audio difference

I decided to check, what happened, when I selected IEEE Float (32-bit) or Linear PCM (16-bit). Most interest is of course the behaviour of the internal microphones in the iPhone…
recorded a few seconds ProRES 422HQ in both audio modes…
there is a significant difference in noise level…
Both FCPX (10.7) and DaVinci Resolve Studo (18.6.4) and earlier versions handle IEEE 32-bit floating point audio channels without hiccup, so… even for the internal microphones, there is a significant benefit (far lower noise) in using IEEE Float compared to Linear PCM in recordings...


I always record 32bit float audio when I can, but write 24bit Linear PCM for deliverables as I assume that 32bit float audio is not yet broadly supported.
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kfriis

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Dec 11, 2023 8:02 am

rick.lang wrote:
kfriis wrote:PCM and Float audio difference

I decided to check, what happened, when I selected IEEE Float (32-bit) or Linear PCM (16-bit). Most interest is of course the behaviour of the internal microphones in the iPhone…
recorded a few seconds ProRES 422HQ in both audio modes…
there is a significant difference in noise level…
Both FCPX (10.7) and DaVinci Resolve Studo (18.6.4) and earlier versions handle IEEE 32-bit floating point audio channels without hiccup, so… even for the internal microphones, there is a significant benefit (far lower noise) in using IEEE Float compared to Linear PCM in recordings...


I always record 32bit float audio when I can, but write 24bit Linear PCM for deliverables as I assume that 32bit float audio is not yet broadly supported.


For recording I too use IEEE 32-bit Float, where at all possible. When I use the Zoom F2, F3, M3 or F6 sound recorders, it’s a given anyway (syncing in post).

Your approach is probably the best for delivery (quality wise), depending on target audience, although a 16-bit delivery Linear PCM format for edited and optimized audio would probably be more than sufficient in many cases. As for well mastered CD’s, not the “compressed crud” in fashion today.

I just got curious, if it would at all be beneficial for internal recording. Never hurts to have a hint or two on the basics in all those cases, where it’s all you have at hand.

What I initially set out to check, was whether I could clip the input signal. Nope. The gain adjustment cought anything I threw at the iPhone. Inspecting the waveforms manually showed no visible difference either. Quite sobering :-)

Regards.
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robedge

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Where does the Blackmagic iPhone app ISO range come from?

PostSun Dec 31, 2023 6:22 pm

Hoping to generate some discussion about setting ISO in the Blackmagic app...

As far as I know, Apple has not published an iPhone 15 ISO range nor a base ISO. The Blackmagic app offers a range of 55 to 5,280*. Some questions:

What is Blackmagic's range based on?
Does Blackmagic regard ISO 55 as the phone's base ISO?
If not, does it have a view on what the base ISO is?

Gerald Undone and Patrick Tomasso have made a somewhat influential video that recommends adopting 1,250 as the base ISO. Note that they also talk about the ramifications of that for setting exposure in low light conditions. What do participants in this forum think of their argument? What are participants adopting as a base ISO and why?

I also have a second question. Some argue that iPhone 15 footage should be under-exposed. Some say 2 stops, some say 1. What do participants in this forum think on this question?

This is the Undone/Tomasso video:

iPhone 15 Pro: Dynamic Range Test


Gerald Undone's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@geraldundone
Patrick Tomasso's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@impatrickt/featured
Patrick Tomasso's website: https://www.patricktomasso.com

* Still photography app Halide, the other third party camera app that I have, has a range of 55 to 12,320.
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Re: Where does the Blackmagic iPhone app ISO range come from

PostSun Dec 31, 2023 9:13 pm

ISO is derived from math based on real world phenomena. With 25 foot-candles, middle grey is properly exposed at f1.0 when exposure time in seconds and ISO are reciprocal. All are real world variables save ISO, which is just a rating based on the other 3 real world factors. If the manufacturer doesn't give a "base" ISO, as users all we can do is defend the one that we think is best (least noise, color, most DR, etc.,)

Good Luck
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Re: Where does the Blackmagic iPhone app ISO range come from

PostSun Dec 31, 2023 9:39 pm

The idea of a "dual base" ISO is kind of arbitrary, I think it just means there are two gain circuits and then the manufacturer pics what they consider the best ISO for each in terms of dynamic range distribution. I don't know how Apple arrives at their ISO settings.

From what I understand, the spec for Apple Log has up to six stops of highlight (over 18% gray) detail and then the in-camera de-noising is so strong that the shadows appear clean through most of the ISO range, up through 1250 ISO or whatever. But the highlights clip differently at different settings. So it's a matter of what ISO has the most highlight dynamic range (highest clipping point) that determines what reads the best in the tests they're doing. (In my experience.) Until it gets crazy grainy, at least.

In my own experience, 55 ISO only records whites up to like 81% or something around there, which correlates maybe with 4.5 stops over 18% gray, whereas 1250 goes up to 99% or something, and in theory has up to thirteen stops of dynamic range.

But the thing is.... this is a phone. And imo ISO 1250 requires some work to get an exposure for (ND filters) and the image is still grainier or maybe less saturated or just not as nice, and I've noticed weird inconsistent results about the white clipping point as I change other settings. I have tested this for a total of like fifteen minutes, so I could be off base.

But it feels like something where you can way over-think it, or just under-think it and work at whatever ISO is convenient, expecting at least 4.5 stops over 18% gray and maybe underexposing a bit more if you need more.

That said, if someone does a deep dive into this, I'll be the first person to read it. I just won't be the first person to do such a deep dive.
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Re: Where does the Blackmagic iPhone app ISO range come from

PostSun Dec 31, 2023 10:58 pm

Howard Roll wrote:ISO is derived from math based on real world phenomena. With 25 foot-candles, middle grey is properly exposed at f1.0 when exposure time in seconds and ISO are reciprocal. All are real world variables save ISO, which is just a rating based on the other 3 real world factors. If the manufacturer doesn't give a "base" ISO, as users all we can do is defend the one that we think is best (least noise, color, most DR, etc.,)


Blackmagic is neither the manufacturer nor an ordinary user. I'm asking whether Blackmagic's range is related to its views on the camera's performance. The answer may be no and it may be yes. I ask, in part, because ISO 55, also Halide's minimum, is not, a far as I know, a standard part of the ISO sequence. The fact that the two apps have different maximums, ISO 5,280 vs ISO 12,320, may reflect different reasoning, or maybe people at Blackmagic and Halide just picked a number out of a hat.

What I would really like to know, and what I asked in my post, is whether Blackmagic, which makes cameras, communicates with Apple and made the app, has a view on the iPhone camera's base ISO.

After I posted, I tried to change the title of the thread to "Setting ISO in the Blackmagic iPhone App", which would have been clearer. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to edit the title.

EDIT: This discussion started as its own thread, but a moderator moved it to this thread.
Last edited by robedge on Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rick.lang

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Re: Where does the Blackmagic iPhone app ISO range come from

PostSun Dec 31, 2023 11:50 pm

Howard Roll wrote:ISO is derived from math based on real world phenomena. With 25 foot-candles, middle grey is properly exposed at f1.0 when exposure time in seconds and ISO are reciprocal. All are real world variables save ISO, which is just a rating based on the other 3 real world factors…


I wasn’t aware of that relationship. So assuming ISO 1250 is an appropriate starting point, then the exposure would be 1/1250” at f/1 for middle grey under 25 foot/candles. If shooting with that illumination at f/5.6 with 30 fps and 288 degree shutter angle (or 1/37.5”), we would be at middle grey. Hope my math is okay.

To validate this assumed ‘base 1250 ISO, we need to know the foot-candles in the scene on a subject suitable for recording at middle grey, but hopefully there’s an app for that like Cinemeter.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 2:42 am

I'm not saying this is exactly what we use/do, but where possible we use Apple's provided API and if you look through various documentation online you will find things like:

https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... guage=objc

https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... guage=objc

Which gives you ranges depending on the phone model etc
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Uli Plank

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 4:56 am

Happy New Year to everybody!

According to my tests, there's not simply a native ISO, as Gerald Undone and Patrick Tommaso claim. Even if we don't get that horrible edge 'enhancement' or the unpredictable tone mapping when using log, there's still a lot of NR going on in the shadows and EDR in the highlights (if the exposure time is short enough). They don't even mention if they bracketed by ND or exposure time (the latter could influence the results massively).

ISO 55 seems to be the lower limit set by Apple, since neither app is going lower. In CinemaP3 you can set both an upper and a lower ISO limit of your own, which I appreciate.

Judging from a chart with bracketing by ND, I can correct 2 stops of overexposure and 3 of underexposure, before colours get too weird or too much noise is creeping in. Of course, NR in post may extend that range, but Apple's internal NR is already destroying a lot of detail. Simply compare photos at night (with multi-exposure) to some video at the same level of light.

Generally speaking, I would avoid to go to as high as 1.250, since quite a bit of noise is already creeping into the lower mids. 600-800 seems more reasonable. Just keep your shutter at 180 degrees (or shorter if you like it). Then shift the resulting log curve around with NDs (if needed) to either protect your highlights or the shadows. Then let the app do the fine-tuning of the ISO, if you don't prefer to go all manual.

Just my two cents (Euro), true value depending on exchange rates ;-)
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 5:16 am

Uli Plank wrote:
According to my tests, there's not simply a native ISO, as Gerald Undone and Patrick Tommaso claim.


They don't claim that. I'm rather less dismissive of Tommaso in particular. He has more than tests to his credit. His client list includes a number of major Canadian corporations.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 5:20 am

OK, they assume that. Better?

@ Kurt and Peter:
I take the discussion regarding time-lapse in CinemaP3 to where it belongs:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=193419&p=1010248#p1010248
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 5:52 am

Uli Plank wrote:OK, they assume that. Better?

@ Kurt and Peter:
I take the discussion regarding time-lapse in CinemaP3 to where it belongs:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=193419&p=1010248#p1010248


No, it isn't "better". You can go back to selling Cinema P3 now. If the people involved in Cinema P3 were capable of creating a discussion forum, or at least a Facebook group, you'd have somewhere else to sell it. Of course, you and Kurt could start a Cinema P3 Facebook Group. That way, I could write a post that has literally nothing to do with Cinema P3 and I wouldn't suddenly be reading more evangelism about it in a reply. Didn't you start a dedicated Cinema P3 thread on this Blackmagic forum because you realised that constantly working Cinema P3 into discussions here is, to use your words, "unfair and misplaced"?
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 7:16 am

Hmm, do you really want to turn this into a Reduser forum, where you can have but one god?

I appreciate that we have the freedom here to mention cameras not made by BM, why not an app?

I posted my answer unintentionally here, but moved it to a separate thread, so Kurt and me (and maybe Peter) will not bother you with time-lapse issues any more.

BTW, I don't sell that app, I bought it. And now, please relax.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 2:20 pm

This is from Stu Maschwitz's interesting blog post on Apple's October event titled "What Does and Doesn't Matter About Apple Shooting their October Event on iPhone15 Pro Max" (https://prolost.com/blog/scarybts):

They Shot at ISO 55: Matters to Apple’s Goal of Maximum Image Quality

Here’s where the level of professional control over the lighting starts to really matter: If Apple decided that they must shoot at ISO 55 (the lowest, although possibly not the native ISO of the 1x camera) for the highest image quality, and with a 180º shutter for the most pro-camera look, that means they have no other control over exposure. The iPhone 15 Pro 1x lens does not have a variable aperture, so shutter speed and ISO are your only exposure controls.

When shooting in uncontrolled environments, the typical method of limiting the amount of light entering the lens is via ND filters, sometimes variable ND filters. I don’t see any evidence that Apple used filters on this shoot, which would fit with their overall prioritization of image quality over all else. So this goes back to lighting — Apple’s team controlled that lighting perfectly, because they opted out of any exposure control they might have had in-camera.

I'm curious to learn more about this setting though. YouTubers Gerald Undone and Patrick Tomasso did some tests and found that the best dynamic range from the iPhone 15 Pro came from ISO 1100–1450, with 1250 being their recommended sweet spot. Did Apple prioritize low noise over dynamic range?


Maschwitz's bio:

Stu Maschwitz is a filmmaker, photographer, writer, visual effects artist, and designer of filmmaking software. A graduate of CalArts, Maschwitz spent four years at Industrial Light & Magic, working on films like Twister, Star Wars, and Mission: Impossible, before co-founding the legendary visual effects firm The Orphanage in 1999. Maschwitz’s directing work includes music videos, award-winning commercials, and second-unit for film and television... Maschwitz designed the Magic Bullet color grading system for Red Giant, and is now Chief Creative Officer of MAXON, where he continues to create powerful, intuitive tools for animators, filmmakers, and motion designers.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 6:29 pm

This has certainly been a very informative thread so thanks for launching the discussion. It’s tempting to keep all three candidates in mind when testing various scenes to see which setting appears to be preferable. It may well be that one setting is superior in lower light and one in higher light.

If Apple’s crew really and honestly did stick with locking ISO at 55 and shutter angle at 180 degrees, then correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m concluding neutral density filters and lens selection were their only camera setting controls affecting different lighting situations.

Well actually that’s not at all true as I would think they had several crew with lights, scrims, reflectors, and other light modifiers galore at their disposal, just like their typical iPhone shooter would use for a day at the beach or recording at home in their spacious family room.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 7:38 pm

Picking up on Rick's post, I should add some recent info to this part of the quote from Stu Maschwitz (2 posts up):

I don’t see any evidence that Apple used filters on this shoot, which would fit with their overall prioritization of image quality over all else.


Last Friday (December 29th), Beastgrip published a video about the new iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max cages. Beastgrip's owner, Vadym Chalenko, talked briefly about Apple's October event. He says that the new cage wasn't ready so Apple used Beastgrip's iPhone 14 cage. The iPhone 15 more or less physically fit the iPhone 14 cage, but the lens plates and filter adapter were misaligned. The reason is that Apple has repositioned the lenses for iPhone 15. Chalenko says that Apple used only the iPhone 15 built in native lenses, and effectively says that it used them without filters. For iPhone 15, Beastgrip has redesigned both its lens plates and filter adapter. For anyone interested, the video is linked in this forum post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191338&start=250#p1009848

It's possible to hand hold a filter over a lens (I've done it with square filters on my 4x5 camera), but I kind of doubt that Apple did that.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 8:13 pm

rick.lang wrote: I would think they had several crew with lights, scrims, reflectors, and other light modifiers galore at their disposal


Some of the lighting setups were shown in the various BTS footage of the shoot.

"Massive" is one word I'd use to describe them.
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robedge

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 01, 2024 10:14 pm

Below is the ISO sequence from my Sekonic L-758DR light meter and the Wikipedia entry for Film Speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed).

I've now looked at available ISOs for several camera apps for iPhone. They all differed from the standard sequence below, some of them markedly. They also differ significantly on range. I don't know why, but I'd like to.

These are the first five ISO values in one iPhone video app that has a range of 55 to 2200:

55
152
250
348
445

Given that ISO is my main exposure control, and Blackmagic is my chosen camera app, it occurs to me that maybe I should understand iPhone and Blackmagic app ISO better than I do :)

This is the standard, officially defined sequence to 16,000:

50
64
80
100
125
160
200
250
320
400
500
640
800
1000
1250
1600
2000
2500
3200
4000
5000
6400
8000
10000
12500
16000

The are lower values than ISO 50, but they're largely obsolete. These days, there isn't a big market for ISO 25 film. Nevertheless, FilMic Pro apparently has a range of 24 to 2304.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostTue Jan 02, 2024 3:14 am

rick.lang wrote:If Apple’s crew really and honestly did stick with locking ISO at 55 and shutter angle at 180 degrees, then correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m concluding neutral density filters and lens selection were their only camera setting controls affecting different lighting situations.


Who needs ND at night with ISO 55? You just need a truckload of lighting equipment and a professional crew. Well, maybe some large NDs on windows where you have no full control over the lights behind them (which probably doesn't apply to Apple's campus).

Regarding limitations, it seems we don't only have uncommon ISO values. Shutter doesn't allow precise 45 degrees opening, so I suppose it is simply calculated by the apps from speed according to the photographic table, like 1/125, 1/250 and so on.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 10, 2024 12:11 pm

I'm here only to say:

The orientation isues remain in 1.2.1, all time yu change from the front camera to a rear câmera, the image of one of them turns upside down after fiish the rec.

I recommend this app to 2 friends: One with iphone 13 standard, and other with 13 pro max, and the isues are there....

I can claim this is the most important feature to normal users, because iphone dont do that normaly, helps a lot to produce content, and is a Samsung exclusive feature, can do the diference to buy a iPhone, IMO.

But, all the app is incredible: external mic, pro res, etc... Only this... made me to go limp.

At.te,

GIuliano Viana
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 10, 2024 5:11 pm

Giuliano Viana wrote:The orientation isues remain in 1.2.1, all time yu change from the front camera to a rear câmera, the image of one of them turns upside down after fiish the rec.
GIuliano Viana


I noticed that, too. It's impressive that you can continuously record while switching cameras, despite the irritation of the image inverting. Even the audio recording persists over camera switching.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 15, 2024 11:25 am

Apologies - a little off topic - I don't know if anyone else has considered this but..

Does anyone if BMD be putting accelerometer capture into the app? that would be super useful for tracking data with resolve.

Can't find any info on the forum.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostMon Jan 15, 2024 3:52 pm

Been experimenting with 55 vs 1250 ISO by setting them as presets but irritatingly the zebras don't get saved in the preset file so you have to change them on the fly each time you adjust your ISO
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Relea

PostMon Jan 15, 2024 4:15 pm

Uli Plank wrote:
rick.lang wrote:If Apple’s crew really and honestly did stick with locking ISO at 55 and shutter angle at 180 degrees, then correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m concluding neutral density filters and lens selection were their only camera setting controls affecting different lighting situations.


Who needs ND at night with ISO 55? You just need a truckload of lighting equipment and a professional crew. Well, maybe some large NDs on windows where you have no full control over the lights behind them (which probably doesn't apply to Apple's campus).

Regarding limitations, it seems we don't only have uncommon ISO values. Shutter doesn't allow precise 45 degrees opening, so I suppose it is simply calculated by the apps from speed according to the photographic table, like 1/125, 1/250 and so on.


Since there are no “angles” on a non-rotating non-mechanical shutter (ahem!), there has to be calculations involved, when converting from a purely fictional setting to actually applied shutter value; especially at the “brain-dead” 29,97 (30000/1001) and 59,94 (60000/1001) fps US values ;-)

I actually prefer the “non-fixed” ISO values; compared to the “jumping” ⅓, ½ or 1 stop selectable values in “real cameras”, that not only makes me “jumpy” (unless fully manual is selected - not always practical).

On BMC it’s a problem, though, if shutter is locked (ISO also stays put).

Regards
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostTue Jan 16, 2024 12:39 am

Yes, it would be nice if BM could change that. I’d rather have fixed exposure times and seamlessly sliding ISO values, which can be controlled by NDs.

And then, it would be helpful if we could have non-exposure time left calculated in milliseconds, so we know when EDR sets in. Wait, there is a calculator on our phones anyway? ;-)
OK, what about a simple indicator for EDR on or off?
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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BM Cam app - lock shutter, no exposure control?

PostTue Jan 16, 2024 1:18 am

I am a major newbie. But, I have successfully finessed FilmicPro and others.

Many sources state it’s best to lock shutter at 180. But this seems to “remove” a smooth and continuous exposure control - instead I get the stepped iso control.

So, I guess my question is, how should I approach these interrelated settings?

My original intent was to lock shutter speed, and then dial down exposure for certain log conversions.

Thank you all for your responses.

Alex
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostTue Jan 16, 2024 2:50 am

Uli Plank wrote:… what about a simple indicator for EDR on or off?


Yes, please.
Rick Lang
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostTue Jan 16, 2024 10:46 am

Uli Plank wrote:Yes, it would be nice if BM could change that. I’d rather have fixed exposure times and seamlessly sliding ISO values, which can be controlled by NDs.

And then, it would be helpful if we could have non-exposure time left calculated in milliseconds, so we know when EDR sets in. Wait, there is a calculator on our phones anyway? ;-)
OK, what about a simple indicator for EDR on or off?


I love the use of Cinema P3 Pro in Shutter priority mode (only ISO changes), locked white balance, when recording starts, and cinema stabilization for most handheld uses (especially run and gun). Only fly in the ointment, is that minimum shutter is 1/26 sec for 25 fps and 1/51 sec for 50 fps. BMC allows 1/25 and 1/50 respectively. No big deal, just irritating ;-)



Video content: Screen recording with main lens on iPhone 15 Pro pointing in wildly different lighting situations when sitting in my preferred old-timer armchair!

ISO changes by a tiny amount (single digit) up to each two frames (50fps). Variable ISO in Cinema P3 Pro (forgot to activate whitebalance lock when recording starts). Note, that ProRES 422HQ 50 fps poses no problems for internal recordings on my iPhone 15 Pro. Rather “naaarjs”, when an unexpected situation turns up during a walkabout (my alternative setting is usually ProRES 422 HLG 25fps 1/50sec).

Regards
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BM Cam App - Track E sync

PostTue Jan 16, 2024 11:59 pm

Anyone seeing Sync issues with the BM App?
I picked up a Track E. Ran some tests (old school with a real slate) and I'm seeing the audio coming in early.
The Cam app itself is about a frame early.
The Tentacle Track is 1 to 1.4 frames earlier than the app itself (phone's mic)
I'm running a 15 Pro Max. Tested different frame rates and frame sizes, to the camera internal storage and to an external T7 SSD. All about the same. Audio Timecode Sync in Resolve and Tentacle Studio seem to work fine but have the same result. I added a screenshot of the timeline just so you can see. They're not genlocked, just synced to the Track E with the Tentacle setup app, so I'm not surprised by a "soft sync." Makes a nice echo between the two tracks. Makes me long for the days when I'd frame bump live on the CMX (If you know what that means, you're old),
Ideas?
Attachments
BM Cam App sync with Track E.jpg
screen grab timeline showing sync offset
BM Cam App sync with Track E.jpg (977.95 KiB) Viewed 68874 times
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 12:13 am

Yes, sound is about one frame early, but holds the speed pretty well for a smartphone. Just shift it.
I suppose it's processing overhead for the video.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: BM Cam App - Track E sync

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 12:18 am

Robb Harriss wrote:Anyone seeing Sync issues with the BM App?


There's a sync issue inherent in the phone because it has a variable frame rate.

The question is how long sync will be stable, or stable enough for your purposes. You'll find that this has been discussed in earlier posts.

For this and potential heat reasons, my approach is to turn off everything on the phone that doesn't have to be on when filming. I don't know if this helps, but like chicken soup for a cold, it can't hurt. I haven't tried an extended recording, but I've seen YouTube footage where someone being filmed with an iPhone 14/15 talks to camera for many minutes without a noticeable loss of sync. If I recall, I linked an example, maybe two, earlier.

If you watch this Maati Haapoja video, you can watch how long he maintains sync yourself. Note the sequences where it says, in the lower right, "Shot on iPhone":



By the by, Haapoja is one of several successful YouTubers who have quit YouTube in the last few weeks.
Last edited by robedge on Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:54 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 12:38 am

Robb, thanks for the interesting annotations, although you left me hanging on the origin of them coffee in the mug. I personally only drink Colombian in Canada,but I understand that might not be the preferred source in the USA.

What software did you use to add the annotations?
Rick Lang
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 1:09 am

I have tested the iPhone with an electronic clap in front for 30 minutes at 60 fps. It was always about one frame late for picture, with minor variations increasing that to 1.5 on the way, in the end it was one frame again.
Yes, it's still a phone, but the fps variations are only a fraction of a percent, between 59,940 and 60,181 fps.
I also assumed that switching to airplane mode and closing all other apps might have an influence, but repeating the test under either condition didn't show any difference. Activating 'cinema' stabilisation ruined it, though.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: BM Cam app - lock shutter, no exposure control?

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 2:05 am

Did you see this discussion?
You may want to add your vote for having fixed shutter and ISO floating in BM's app: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=188324

It can be done very smoothly in another app, so we hope BM will add it.
Maybe AI can help you. Or make you obsolete.

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 2:55 am

robedge wrote:… By the by, Haapoja is one of several successful YouTubers who have quit YouTube in the last few weeks.


Do you know why several are leaving YouTube? Clients have asked if I can post their videos on YouTube, but I decline and always host their videos (usually Private) on Vimeo.
Rick Lang
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robedge

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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 3:31 am

rick.lang wrote:
robedge wrote:… By the by, Haapoja is one of several successful YouTubers who have quit YouTube in the last few weeks.


Do you know why several are leaving YouTube? Clients have asked if I can post their videos on YouTube, but I decline and always host their videos (usually Private) on Vimeo.


The reason that they're all giving is burnout/mental health. They're people who run very successful channels. Tom Scott, with over 6 million subscribers, quit two weeks ago. Haapoja, with 1.7 million, announced in late November/early December that he was leaving as of this month. Jordy Vandeput, with 2.7 million subscribers, quit three weeks ago. Casey Neistat says that he won't be making anymore YouTube videos, not that he's kept up his earlier schedule anyway. There are apparently several others.

These are people who have made quite a lot of money, in some cases probably enough that they'll never have to work again, and they're saying that they're just burned out, or close to it. Tom Scott's final video is relatively upbeat. His departure was covered by the mainstream press, e.g. The Guardian, and I won't be surprised if he winds up on ITV or the BBC:

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Re: BM Cam app - lock shutter, no exposure control?

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 3:56 am

Thank you. I think my level of understanding is so low in this area, I wasn’t sure if everyone was talking about my experience. Now I know.
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Re: Blackmagic Camera App - General discussion and Releases

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 4:30 am

I think anyone who's made films for a living will proselytize ad nauseum about just how much work it really is. Unless you've done it, you just don't know.

It should come as no surprise that these guys who produced so much for so long eventually reached a breaking point, despite the adventure, fun and fat pay envelopes.

I think at some level we're all indebted to them.
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Re: BMD Camera App

PostWed Jan 17, 2024 9:44 am

Steve Golding wrote:Anyone else having trouble with the front cam, which with mirror on or off, still shows the same mirrored image? On 1.1.
Steve.


Yes, me!
Regardless of the switch's position the image coming out of the HDMI adapter (Apple original, "Clean Feed" setting for "HDMI Out") is mirrored (i.e. wrong).

Would be great if this could be fixed. I'm on v1.2.10003, iOS 17.2.1, iPhone 12 mini.
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