Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

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AJKinOHIO

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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 12:40 pm

John Paines wrote:And you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of raw compared to log.


Elaborate?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 12:44 pm

Tom Roper wrote:It's not required to be superman to understand your craft. The pocket series and FF offer multiple pathways to exposure, to stabilization, compression and focus. Not every scene shot at a wedding is about focus to a point. The bride is in a group with the mother in-law, uncle, grandma, sister, all at slightly different distances from the focal point. What does an AF camera do? It draws little boxes around all of the faces and computes an average distance. I do the same thing all the time manually. It's called "focus to a distance," e.g. if I set my focus mark to 5 ft, all I have to do is keep the same distance to subject when moving around and everybody will be in focus.


And although that is very true, what happens when you break away from the person or group 5ft away from you to very quickly get a shot of something amazing happening 15feet away that is here and gone in a short period of time? You're also, of course, keeping in mind human traffic and that you don't walk into a wall.

This is why I want AF. If someone can handle a manual camera for a whole wedding and reception, God bless 'em!
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 12:48 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:believe me and others telling the same thing, it is quite easy to focus pull manually using manual lenses and cameras, it has been done sins beginning of cameras.
Yes you need to get used to it but in the end it is really is easy no matther what you are shooting.
That is what I have done for 28 years now shooting films, doing live broadcast for TV, shooting documentaries, sports and all kind of run and gun.

Just about all cameras I have ever used all that time do not have AF nor IS and the few I have used that had them I always turn those OFF.
After those 28 years never have I missed or wished I had AF or IS on my cameras at all.


I hear ya, I hear ya. The plan is to not sell the BMPC but instead to buy a camera it's opposite. AF and IS. Use both of them to what they best would shoot at the wedding. I think that's a good plan. And then down the road add a drone. Who doesn't like a drone? Come on. ;)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 3:35 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:
John Paines wrote:And you're vastly overestimating the capabilities of raw compared to log.


Elaborate?


There's a mythology surrounding raw in consumer-level cameras that's most loudly (and ironically) promoted by shooters least able to leverage the difference in the grading suite. Forgetting for a moment that there are all kinds of raw, and theological disputes about the different flavors even on the same cameras (cDNG v. braw on BMD cameras), the fact is, most shooters can't tell the difference in blind tests under normal viewing conditions. And I think you'll find that if a 10 bit 422 log shot is unsalvageable in post, then the same shot in raw will also be unsalvageable. If you want a more detailed discussion as to why, from somebody who ought to know, try this:

https://prolost.com/blog/rawvslog

As to, To Pull Focus or Not to Pull Focus -- no matter what anyone says, pulling accurate focus on the run is difficult. And of course shots are routinely lost to manual focusing fails, especially in larger formats like S35, much less FF. There's a whole genre of out of focus movies shot on the Canon 5D, when that camera was a thing.

There are of course others strategies -- maximize DOF with a wide lens/small aperture, keep a constant distance from the subject, etc. But that's not pulling focus.

I think somebody mentioned a gimbal above. Consider: you're watching the action, watching where you're going, watching who's in front of you, watching your gimbal technique. And you're going to pull focus on top of all that? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't do it.

In any case, the best thing might be to experiment, and see how you do. AF is not a panacea either. What are you doing, how easy is it to set up and does it provide the result you wanted?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 3:54 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:Have no intentions of getting an 8k camera anytime soon. Nor a 6. 4k is the standard right now and I don't need to pay more for overkill. Also the file sizes on those I can imagine to be quite redic.

It's people with money that want to brag about gear they don't currently need imo.


Now that would be ridiculous. I've been around far too long on this Earth to buy a camera to brag about it. I'll leave that to those who buy based on the name of the brand rather than what the gear can actually do. I buy the gear I need in order to do what I want or need to do with it, not because I want to brag about it.

No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K. Lots of people have 12K Ursas but I doubt anyone delivers in 12K. I presume they are delivering in 6K or 8K. It's pretty much the same shooting in 8K or 6K and delivering in 4K.

It's the same with stills photography. It was the same when Nikon came out in 2012 with the 36MP D800 and then to 45MP with the D850. Who needs it? Me because I get loads of room for cropping in post which is really handy when working fast at a wedding when there may not be time to compose properly. Also downsizing for delivery helps reduce noise in images shot at high ISO in poor light and also increases apparent sharpness. And high MP images allow for bigger prints all else being equal.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 4:03 pm

Actually, in most cases what is called 'RAW' is recorded logarithmic, and isn't even RAW in a narrow sense.
The Arri Alexa is undoubtedly one of the most respected digital cameras. Guess what? It records log and the vast majority of productions with that camera is recorded in ProRes, not in ArriRAW (due to file size).
How good log can be depends on the precision of A/D processing, bit depth and the compression. Recording a very flat profile like Slog 3 in massively compressed 8 bit is a joke, and a bad one. A well adapted log profile like Apple Log in 10 bit can already be quite good, and BRAW, which is log and not pure RAW, comes damn close to the Alexa.

But regarding resolution, you need to be aware that 4K (or UHD) of photocells don't deliver true 4K resolution. Since practically all of the cameras discussed here use a Bayer pattern sensor, you need more than that to get true 4K of resolution. 5 or 6K will fully resolve what you can see on an UHD display, and 8K will give you leeway for stabilisation or reframing without any losses. BM's 12K is a different beast, a completely different sensor pattern.
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 4:40 pm

mickspixels wrote:No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K.


The down-crop feature in video isn't what it is for stills. Beyond a relatively small margin, every punch-in sticks out like gangrene. Suddenly you're in a different movie. And it's not just that the shot is softer. The punch-in introduces an implied focal length which doesn't cut with the rest of scene. And the lighting is wrong for that framing.

People who start out on this expectation, usually abandon it.....
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 5:13 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:
Johannes Jonsson wrote:believe me and others telling the same thing, it is quite easy to focus pull manually using manual lenses and cameras, it has been done sins beginning of cameras.
Yes you need to get used to it but in the end it is really is easy no matther what you are shooting.
That is what I have done for 28 years now shooting films, doing live broadcast for TV, shooting documentaries, sports and all kind of run and gun.

Just about all cameras I have ever used all that time do not have AF nor IS and the few I have used that had them I always turn those OFF.
After those 28 years never have I missed or wished I had AF or IS on my cameras at all.


I hear ya, I hear ya. The plan is to not sell the BMPC but instead to buy a camera it's opposite. AF and IS. Use both of them to what they best would shoot at the wedding. I think that's a good plan. And then down the road add a drone. Who doesn't like a drone? Come on. ;)


Not a bad plan, as I mentioned in another post MF or AF is all about personal preference.
P.s. I also love drones owning four of them and cant stop using them :D
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 5:52 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:… what happens when you break away from the person or group 5ft away from you to very quickly get a shot of something amazing happening 15feet away that is here and gone in a short period of time?
...


With experience and knowing your lens, you can do that without looking at the lens, just the monitor. It’s a bit of a feeling for how much you need to move the gear. Easier to do outdoors with a smaller aperture but you may be able to handle that indoors well lit.

…If someone can handle a manual camera for a whole wedding and reception, God bless 'em!


I’m sure there are many here that thank you for your blessing. All my lenses and BMD cameras are manual but it does take experience and planning to maximize your chances of success. And don’t beat yourself up if you miss a shot but still have a dozen good takes. You can even use the ‘missed’ shot as an artful background when you roll your credits.

I think the approach you have outlined is fine and meets your needs; you’ll do well when you eventually take on your first wedding.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:08 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:The plan is to not sell the BMPC but instead to buy a camera it's opposite. AF and IS. Use both of them to what they best would shoot at the wedding. I think that's a good plan. And then down the road add a drone. Who doesn't like a drone? Come on. ;)


It isn't obvious to me what using both a camera with the latest features and a Pocket 4K at a wedding accomplishes. What do each of them "do best", and have you thought about the shooting and editing complications that this introduces? As someone just starting out, doesn't it make more sense to choose one camera and get good at using it?

If you want to adopt a fully featured camera as your main camera, and have an actual reason to mix in footage from someone else's camera, I suggest that you start thinking about an iPhone 15 Pro or Pro Max. Or their successor that's coming in seven months. I mean that seriously. If I was a wedding videographer, and wanted a second camera with different capabilities, I'd be a lot more interested in an iPhone than in a Pocket 4k.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:32 pm

John Paines wrote:
mickspixels wrote:No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K.


The down-crop feature in video isn't what it is for stills. Beyond a relatively small margin, every punch-in sticks out like gangrene. Suddenly you're in a different movie. And it's not just that the shot is softer. The punch-in introduces an implied focal length which doesn't cut with the rest of scene. And the lighting is wrong for that framing


So you are not a Ken Burns fan then. I guess much will depend on the scene and the lighting but i'm not qualified to argue about that. I'll have to live with the digital gangrene (what a thought :lol:) in the multiple terabytes of footage I shot since getting my 8K Nikon for now but I'll try to stop it from spreading and keep the movement to a minimum.

Maybe I started too late with video but I am never happy with my panning and zooming abilities and a gimbal with a couple of kg on board doesn't do my back any good. I've reached a time in my life where digital gangrene is preferable to the back pain I get if I carry heavy weights. Anyway I'm only doing video for my own satisfaction so that should help to prevent the spread of the gangrene.

Or maybe it's time to join Rob Edge and the iPhone brigade.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:35 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:
P.s. I also love drones owning four of them and cant stop using them :D


Have you been using your drones near that erupting Icelandic volcano?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:40 pm

mickspixels wrote:So you are not a Ken Burns fan then.


The "Ken Burns effect" -- which is now an actual fx, offered in some software packages-- is different. The images are static and you're watching the actual camera move develop in front of you, revealing more information as the move progresses. So there are no abrupt transitions, and the logic of moving from wide to close is plain to the viewer.

The problem arises in typical narrative cutting, where the shots have to fit together independently. The most obvious example is the producer or director who demands a closeup be cropped from a wide shot. And the sequence jumps from one to the other. You can do it, but yuck.....
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:41 pm

mickspixels wrote:
Or maybe it's time to join Rob Edge and the iPhone brigade.


I don't think that most of the people who earn income from conventional cameras, in the production cost range that we're talking about, are going to have a choice in the matter. Two recent short films by Marc Webb and Mike Carson, the first fiction and the second a documentary:



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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 6:59 pm

Even if the footage from an iphone equaled the best consumer-level cameras (which it doesn't), what's the point of using it on productions which quite obviously required an army of crew anyway? Or for documentary purposes where any number of cameras would produce the same or better quality?

It's unwieldy on set, awkward to use and shooters can do better with any number of other consumer-level cameras. And any costs saved, if any, would be overwhelmed by the time lost fooling with it.

Virtually any camera today can be made to look "good" on youtube, given adequate production value. It doesn't prove a whole lot, other than that base standards have improved.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:05 pm

John Paines wrote:
mickspixels wrote:So you are not a Ken Burns fan then.


The "Ken Burns effect" -- which is now an actual fx, offered in some software packages-- is different. The images are static and you're watching the actual camera move develop in front of you, revealing more information as the move progresses. So there are no abrupt transitions, and the logic of moving from wide to close is plain to the viewer.
..


Actually Mark Spencer of Ripple Training has some excellent tutorials about using the Ken Burns effect or similar on video as well as stills in FCP and Apple Motion. Animating videos is a bit more complicated thatn animating stills but it is not too difficult. That is the sort of thing I am talking about. I've made a couple of simple FCP effects in Motion which I use to animate my videos and stills in FCP.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:10 pm

John Paines wrote:Even if the footage from an iphone equaled the best consumer-level cameras (which it doesn't), what's the point of using it on productions which quite obviously required an army of crew anyway? Or for documentary purposes where any number of cameras would produce the same or better quality?

It's unwieldy on set, awkward to use and shooters can do better with any number of other consumer-level cameras. And any costs saved, if any, would be overwhelmed by the time lost fooling with it.

Virtually any camera today can be made to look "good" on youtube, given adequate production value. It doesn't prove a whole lot, other than that base standards have improved.


Assertions don't constitute an argument :)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:13 pm

robedge wrote:
mickspixels wrote:
Or maybe it's time to join Rob Edge and the iPhone brigade.


I don't think that most of the people who earn income from conventional cameras, in the production cost range that we're talking about, are going to have a choice in the matter.


I expect I will upgrade my iPhone at some point to one of the Pro models to augment rather than replace my Nikon kit, especially for adding motion to my videos. I've been considering it in fact and following your very long thread but have overspent recently so will probably be waiting until September for the next iteration.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:15 pm

mickspixels wrote:
Johannes Jonsson wrote:
P.s. I also love drones owning four of them and cant stop using them :D


Have you been using your drones near that erupting Icelandic volcano?


I have only been there at the first or second eruption in this area of eruption belt, it will erupt with weeks or a month between on going for some time so no hurry going there again as is. Also it is restricted area for researchers with their drones and surveillance flights for helicopters.

Have been to few thought like Holuhraun witch was much more powerful, I had drone with me then but to much wind for drones.
Also Eyjafjallajökull eruption witch was huge, and it was also well known for trial and errors of foreign news reporters trying to pronounce its name :)
So sadly never used drone there, just cameras.

Have you been there?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:27 pm

robedge wrote:Assertions don't constitute an argument :)


What assertions are you contesting? That iphone footage isn't the equal of the best consumer and semi-consumer cameras? That an iphone is a bear to use on set? I don't think you'll find either of these assertions to be controversial.

Or conversely, where's your evidence that iphone footage is the equal of or the superior to the better consumer cameras? Or that it's a sound choice on professional sets?

You're making broad claims about film/video production, evidently based on casual viewing of some youtubes, one of which was produced by Apple with unlimited resources..... Youtube is generally not the best way to approach choice of camera.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:44 pm

John Paines wrote:
robedge wrote:Assertions don't constitute an argument :)


What assertions are you contesting?

...

You're making broad claims about film/video production, evidently based on casual viewing of some youtubes...


Got it. Your assertions are true unless I prove otherwise.

And while we're at it, let's invent an ad hominem attack.

:)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 7:57 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:
mickspixels wrote:
Johannes Jonsson wrote:
P.s. I also love drones owning four of them and cant stop using them :D


Have you been using your drones near that erupting Icelandic volcano?


I have only been there at the first or second eruption in this area of eruption belt, it will erupt with weeks or a month between on going for some time so no hurry going there again as is. Also it is restricted area for researchers with their drones and surveillance flights for helicopters.

Have been to few thought like Holuhraun witch was much more powerful, I had drone with me then but to much wind for drones.
Also Eyjafjallajökull eruption witch was huge, and it was also well known for trial and errors of foreign news reporters trying to pronounce its name :)
So sadly never used drone there, just cameras.

Have you been there?


No I've never been to Iceland which is a shame. I used to be a professional volcanologist, working in South America and the Caribbean but have not made it to Iceland yet. I kinda prefer warmth to cold so tend to head to the Canary Islands which are also almost entirely volcanic in origin. I've been doing a long term personal photographic and more recently video project on the volcanism and plant life, mainly on Tenerife. One day I'll hopefully get to Iceland.

No way can I pronounce Eyjafjallajökull but I remember the impact on European air traffic. I've met a few wedding photographers who got caught up in that and couldn't get to their weddings.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 8:11 pm

Google's #1 popular question about Eyjafjallajökull:

How do you pronounce Eyjafjallajökull phonetically?

:)

I lived near Mount Etna for several months. It got my attention.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 8:16 pm

robedge wrote:
John Paines wrote:
robedge wrote:Assertions don't constitute an argument :)


What assertions are you contesting?

...

You're making broad claims about film/video production, evidently based on casual viewing of some youtubes...


Got it. Your assertions are true unless I prove otherwise.

And while we're at it, let's invent an ad hominem attack.

:)


Alas, we've been through this before. You watched two youtubes and decided you can predict the course of the future and the industry. And any contradiction of your views is deemed to be a personal attack.

But iphones will prevail, for sure. Glad we could settle it to everyone's satisfaction.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 8:27 pm

robedge wrote:Google's #1 popular question about Eyjafjallajökull:

How do you pronounce Eyjafjallajökull phonetically?

:)

I lived near Mount Etna for several months. It got my attention.


Etna is a place that demands respect. I got caught in white out on Etna in September 1992. The snow just came out of nowhere. It had been a beautiful sunny day before that and nobody was dressed for snow. Our Italian guide got hypothermia.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 8:30 pm

John Paines wrote:
Alas, we've been through this before. You watched two youtubes and decided you can predict the course of the future and the industry. And any contradiction of your views is deemed to be a personal attack.

But iphones will prevail, for sure. Glad we could settle it to everyone's satisfaction.


Huh?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 9:03 pm

mickspixels wrote:Etna is a place that demands respect. I got caught in white out on Etna in September 1992. The snow just came out of nowhere. It had been a beautiful sunny day before that and nobody was dressed for snow. Our Italian guide got hypothermia.


Yes, people who live in south-eastern Sicily are acutely aware of the fact that they're living in a geologically volatile area. Much of it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site as a result of the decision to rebuild, from the ground up, after an earthquake that killed 60,000 people. If you want to see great Baroque architecture, that part of Sicily is a good place to do it.

On the upside, the volcanic soil makes Etna and the surrounding area the most agriculturally rich on the island. Wonderful orchards and what are arguably the island's best wines.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 9:12 pm

There's a mythology surrounding raw in consumer-level cameras that's most loudly (and ironically) promoted by shooters least able to leverage the difference in the grading suite. Forgetting for a moment that there are all kinds of raw, and theological disputes about the different flavors even on the same cameras (cDNG v. braw on BMD cameras), the fact is, most shooters can't tell the difference in blind tests under normal viewing conditions. And I think you'll find that if a 10 bit 422 log shot is unsalvageable in post, then the same shot in raw will also be unsalvageable.

I would add to this the following points:

Unless a codec uses floating point code values (no broadly available codecs do that at the moment) linear Raw requires far more bit-depth compared to log. Log is near optimal for encoding a full dynamic range. A 12 or even 14-bit linear raw format captures less dynamic range than a 10-bit log encoding.

The notion that exposure adjustments can be made better with raw than log is just nonsense.

While it is true that there is a theoretical advantage of "white balancing" before debayering the actual differences are minimal. Add to that the fact BM RAW is already partially de-bayered.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSat Feb 24, 2024 11:37 pm

robedge wrote:
mickspixels wrote:
Or maybe it's time to join Rob Edge and the iPhone brigade.


I don't think that most of the people who earn income from conventional cameras, in the production cost range that we're talking about, are going to have a choice in the matter. Two recent short films by Marc Webb and Mike Carson, the first fiction and the second a documentary:



I must say, that first film really does look quite nice.

But also kind of pointless, when there are cameras that produce better images at a lower price, and can actually produce DOF without simulating it like the iPhone does. The benefits of using a handy phone for filming are lost when using it in a crewed, controlled set like that.

For the run-and-gun wedding videographer, though, it could be all he/she will ever need.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 12:54 am

soohyun wrote:




I must say, that first film really does look quite nice.

But also kind of pointless, when there are cameras that produce better images at a lower price, and can actually produce DOF without simulating it like the iPhone does. The benefits of using a handy phone for filming are lost when using it in a crewed, controlled set like that.

For the run-and-gun wedding videographer, though, it could be all he/she will ever need.


Have a look at what the professionals who have shot with an iPhone 15 say about the benefits of using one. You'll learn more from that than from a debate here. There's a behind the scenes for Apple's October event, and two for the first film above. One of the two, by Youtube channel Mediastorm, is in Mandarin, but with very good English subtitles. The filmmakers were given free rein on the set. It's worth watching both BTS videos.

Blackmagic isn't invested in this for the fun of it. It's developing its iPhone camera control app, supporting third party players in timecode and focus pulling, and including Blackmagic Cloud as part of the product, because it knows that there's a market. Adobe and its subsidiary Frame.io have already demonstrated that. It's widely expected that we'll see a good number of related products released in April at NAB. For example, Tilta will be launching, to use its term, an iPhone "ecosystem".

Recently, Peter McKinnon argued in a video shot with an iPhone 15 that this is reminiscent of the "DSLR revolution". If that doesn't mean anything to you, he elaborates.

This forum currently has four threads specific to the iPhone as a camera and the Blackmagic Camera app. If you aren't already reading them, you might find them interesting.
Video Cameras: iPhone, Pocket 4K
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 1:42 am

Every time there's a new iphone, Apple pays professionals to tout it. And they say exactly what some folks here want to hear. Notice they're not asked to compare the latest iphone with actual commensurately priced cameras. And inquire privately of these professionals what upcoming projects, not paid for by Apple, they're shooting on an iphone, and you'll get a different answer.

Consumer obsessions have no end, same with all the imaginary movies no one will ever shoot, and this fantasy would appear to have a lot more mileage in it, based on the promotions above. Pointing out the obvious -- that no actual professional would voluntarily choose to shoot on an iphone if not paid specifically to do so -- is no deterrent.

And why not hijack this thread while we're at it? The favorite topic of some must be everyone's favorite topic! All the movies I'll never shoot on an iphone and all the consumer gear I'll never use to make them..... That subject is boundless. 4 threads will never be enough!
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 2:26 am

John Paines wrote:And why not hijack this thread while we're at it? The favorite topic of some must be everyone's favorite topic! 4 threads is not enough!


Hijacking :)

That's pretty funny. There was an attempted hijacking alright, just not the one you imagine :)

Here's what I actually said, in one out of several posts, that you apparently claim amounts to hijacking this thread:

It isn't obvious to me what using both a camera with the latest features and a Pocket 4K at a wedding accomplishes. What do each of them "do best", and have you thought about the shooting and editing complications that this introduces? As someone just starting out, doesn't it make more sense to choose one camera and get good at using it?

If you want to adopt a fully featured camera as your main camera, and have an actual reason to mix in footage from someone else's camera, I suggest that you start thinking about an iPhone 15 Pro or Pro Max. Or their successor that's coming in seven months. I mean that seriously. If I was a wedding videographer, and wanted a second camera with different capabilities, I'd be a lot more interested in an iPhone than in a Pocket 4k.


As part of the post, I "suggested" that if he's convinced that he needs a second camera to "think about" an iPhone 15. Shortly after, I added, in essence, that I "think" that the iPhone will become a mainstream tool for filmmaking at a certain level and that people who make their living at that level can't afford to ignore it.

You seized on that and proceeded to write a number of posts containing various assertions mixed in with a completely invented attack on me that you asserted as fact. I largely ignored you. My last response was a single word: "Huh?" :)

Oh, and here are the very first two sentences of my post immediately above yours, responding to Soohyun:

Have a look at what the professionals who have shot with an iPhone 15 say about the benefits of using one. You'll learn more from that than from a debate here.


Subforums and Threads

Yes, there are four dedicated threads. As of now, there has not been a decision to give the Blackmagic Camera app its own subforum. The forum policy is to merge new threads about the iPhone and the app into one of the current four threads. The participants in the threads include several highly regarded members of this forum. One of the four threads appears to be the most viewed thread on this forum, and also appears to be attracting a lot of readers from outside. Some of the posts in that thread rate quite highly on Google searches.

What are people discussing and learning about? A Blackmagic product called the Blackmagic Camera app and the iPhone camera that it controls.

Could we move on now?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 7:15 am

mickspixels wrote:
AJKinOHIO wrote:Have no intentions of getting an 8k camera anytime soon. Nor a 6. 4k is the standard right now and I don't need to pay more for overkill. Also the file sizes on those I can imagine to be quite redic.

It's people with money that want to brag about gear they don't currently need imo.



No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K. Lots of people have 12K Ursas but I doubt anyone delivers in 12K. I presume they are delivering in 6K or 8K. It's pretty much the same shooting in 8K or 6K and delivering in 4K.


It's possible to crop a lot in IDEAL conditions. But most of the time conditions aren't ideal. You crop in and learn the shot was soft, not noticeable at 12K delivered to UHD, but once you crop in all of a sudden it is.

Or you were focussed not he fore ground and not the background. Or just a little bit out....

An inferior wider lens which we see many users have on the front can have some subtle distortions on the frame edge. All of a sudden someone's head is mis-shaped in their new close up...

Best to say this approach is not really something you can rely on working every time.

As to file size...most seem to think it will be huge or massive or unworkable. It may surprise you to learn that the 12K files are often less than a 4K 12 bit ProRes file and typically in DR will process faster.

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Cary Knoop

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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 7:55 am

Unless we are talking about lenses for large-frame sensors what lenses can effectively handle a 12k resolution? Say a lens for Super 35?
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 7:57 am

Hello,
I just want to share my experience.
I am not a wedding videographer but a documentary filmmaker focused on dance and theater.
For our actual project (old dancers in Kerala) I us four cameras:
– BMPC 4k with 12-60 (24-120 FF) fixed on tripod for my main image of subject, torso framed
Braw 8:1 on SSD
– GH3 HD with 35-100 operated on tripod for close-up
i-H264
– GH4 with 12-35 fixed on tripod for "contre-champ" on interviewer
Prores 422 on BM video-assist
– iPhone 15 Pro with mini-clamp and magic-arm to have a view of all the set, if possible from above
internal h265 with BM camera app
Sound is recorded on Zoom H8 (2 HF with lav, stereo couple, shotgun on the subject)
All cameras are feeded with timecode from zoom, though cable or HF (rode Wireless).
I am very happy with the set, not the ideal one, but build through 8 years of experience.
BMPC 4k raw is easy to use in DVR, I can recrop a little and its an excelent basis to adjust colors on other cameras. For more mobile shooting, I use a DJI ronin gimbal.
iPhone 15 is perfect for rapid shooting and my next buy will be a gimbal to stabilize it.
If I can, I would buy the FF 6K BMPC for my basis camera, better image, more space to crop.
Yes, you need multiple different cameras, for each situations and the most important, even for wedding, is to have a fixed, focused camera to be able to edit it confortably and cut handheld out of frame and out of focus camera!
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 8:02 am

Cary Knoop wrote:Unless we are talking about lenses for large-frame sensors what lenses can effectively handle a 12k resolution? Say a lens for Super 35?


Any lens is a 12K lens. This is another 12K myth. It’s not about resolution…

But it has to be in focus. It has to be well corrected.

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WahWay

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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 9:15 am

Blackmagic add gyro stabilisation (albeit not perfect yet) to compensate for lack of IBIS in their cameras. What next? With AI will Blackmagic add data to its files that allows autofocus in post in DaVinci ;)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 9:22 am

Why won't Blackmagic give an answer to gyro stabilization on the U12K? Just a statement, could be:

1.) Not possible
2.) Still under consideration
3.) Not the priority for us
4.) We're working on it
5.) We'll do it if enough people ask
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 9:35 am

[/quote]No I've never been to Iceland which is a shame. I used to be a professional volcanologist, working in South America and the Caribbean but have not made it to Iceland yet. I kinda prefer warmth to cold so tend to head to the Canary Islands which are also almost entirely volcanic in origin. I've been doing a long term personal photographic and more recently video project on the volcanism and plant life, mainly on Tenerife. One day I'll hopefully get to Iceland.

No way can I pronounce Eyjafjallajökull but I remember the impact on European air traffic. I've met a few wedding photographers who got caught up in that and couldn't get to their weddings.[/quote]

Yeah it did cause quite much impact on air traffic around Europe, unbelievable a small island in the middle of Atlantic.
Canary is bit warmer but I think you could manage the cold here, it is not that bad :D
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 9:45 am

robedge wrote:
mickspixels wrote:Etna is a place that demands respect. I got caught in white out on Etna in September 1992. The snow just came out of nowhere. It had been a beautiful sunny day before that and nobody was dressed for snow. Our Italian guide got hypothermia.


Yes, people who live in south-eastern Sicily are acutely aware of the fact that they're living in a geologically volatile area. Much of it is a UNESCO World Heritage Site as a result of the decision to rebuild, from the ground up, after an earthquake that killed 60,000 people. If you want to see great Baroque architecture, that part of Sicily is a good place to do it.

On the upside, the volcanic soil makes Etna and the surrounding area the most agriculturally rich on the island. Wonderful orchards and what are arguably the island's best wines.


Yeah Entna is something else, one of the most active volcanoes another level volcano.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 1:22 pm

John Brawley wrote:
mickspixels wrote:
AJKinOHIO wrote:Have no intentions of getting an 8k camera anytime soon. Nor a 6. 4k is the standard right now and I don't need to pay more for overkill. Also the file sizes on those I can imagine to be quite redic.

It's people with money that want to brag about gear they don't currently need imo.


No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K. Lots of people have 12K Ursas but I doubt anyone delivers in 12K. I presume they are delivering in 6K or 8K. It's pretty much the same shooting in 8K or 6K and delivering in 4K.


It's possible to crop a lot in IDEAL conditions. But most of the time conditions aren't ideal. You crop in and learn the shot was soft, not noticeable at 12K delivered to UHD, but once you crop in all of a sudden it is.

Or you were focussed not he fore ground and not the background. Or just a little bit out....

An inferior wider lens which we see many users have on the front can have some subtle distortions on the frame edge. All of a sudden someone's head is mis-shaped in their new close up...

Best to say this approach is not really something you can rely on working every time.

As to file size...most seem to think it will be huge or massive or unworkable. It may surprise you to learn that the 12K files are often less than a 4K 12 bit ProRes file and typically in DR will process faster.

JB


Yes for sure. I agree with all of that. Most of the time I am shooting close-up/nature/landscape stuff with a tripod and I am using the new NIkon Z lenses, which are excellent from my photographer perspective, so in a lot of ways I am shooting in good if not exactly ideal conditions. When I say lots of room for cropping, I wouldn't crop excessively to the point where quality is noticeably lost in a 4K timeline.

That said, I can imagine it might be useful to have that extra bit of cropability when working under stress conditions like a wedding. I'm again speaking from photographer rather than videographer perspective where I don't need to frame perfectly in camera so I can focus on getting a shot quickly and sort out composition afterwards.

In terms of detail, which is important to me in what I do, when I compare a clip shot in 8K brought into a 4K timeline against a clip shot in 4K in the same timeline, all else being equal, there is definitely a discernible difference in quality with the 8K.

When Nikon introduced 36MP cameras in 2012, there were all sorts of complaints about soft images when the real problems were poor lenses and poor technique. Quality lenses and accurate focus are essential for high MP work. It's become normalised now. Give me 8K anyday.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostSun Feb 25, 2024 1:30 pm

Johannes Jonsson wrote:
Canary is bit warmer but I think you could manage the cold here, it is not that bad :D


Yes in fact it can get way too hot in the Canaries. I was there last year and it was hitting 40C which is way too much for me. Mid-20s is my preference. One of these years I'll hopefully make it to Iceland, more likely in summer than winter.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 4:12 am

rick.lang wrote:My Camera B on a two camera shoot used a Nikon Z6 with autofocus. Generally good results, but one brief reaction shot of a seated actor relatively motionless was actually out of focus and the operator didn’t notice, because with autofocus you may be assuming everything is fine. Lesson learned.


I use focus assistant, spin the dial till all the grain is on the subject, hit record. Was that your lesson learned or did your camera not have an assistant or.... ?

rick.lang wrote:I have done several weddings with the manual UM4.6K on a tripod. The odd time I wish I could retake a shot, so it doesn’t survive the edit. Never been a loss of a critical shot. To do that I do a site visit with the bride at least a few days ahead of the shoot so we can plan all the wedding and reception shots and arrange blocking so that I can follow most motion without changing focus significantly. Planning is essential to any success I’ve had. I learn the several places where I’ll place my tripod and the bride lets you know what’s important to her. Believe me the bride is always right and she’ll love seeing the results.


This right here is money. And I knew that but hearing from others that have already done it really helps. Affirmation or repetition, both, who knows, all I know is I think you're 100% right and will be doing the same in the future. Thank you for that reminder!
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 4:26 am

John Paines wrote:
I think somebody mentioned a gimbal above. Consider: you're watching the action, watching where you're going, watching who's in front of you, watching your gimbal technique. And you're going to pull focus on top of all that? I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't do it.


This is EXACTLY how I feel! I haven't even done it but can EASILY envision attempting that and really screwing up the shots. Not in a mood to put myself through that so, this is precisely why I started this thread. I'm coming to find, and kinda figured, there is no solve all to this challenge, but I really believe getting a good AF camera with image stabilizer on it will be the best way to start. Make adjustments as you go. Put the BMC on a tripod. Have to look more into this dual-pixel focusing that someone just mentioned in an earlier post... more homework to do but that's a good thing. Don't need to be repeating the BMP purchase experience you know ;)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 4:32 am

mickspixels wrote:No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K. Lots of people have 12K Ursas but I doubt anyone delivers in 12K. I presume they are delivering in 6K or 8K. It's pretty much the same shooting in 8K or 6K and delivering in 4K.


Maybe I was just thinking purely from a broadcast standpoint because of the cost. Those def sound like big advantages but an 8k camera or above gets redic expensive. I'm just aiming at a good AF camera for $3k or less. Those other cameras down the line sound justified especially your comment about might having to do something on the fly at the wedding and no time to make it perfect but can fix that up in post whereas you wouldn't have that option for a 4k camera. Very good tip. Thanks!
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 4:38 am

Uli Plank wrote:The Arri Alexa is undoubtedly one of the most respected digital cameras.


Looks like sweet cameras, but those are MF cinema cameras.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 4:40 am

Johannes Jonsson wrote:Not a bad plan, as I mentioned in another post MF or AF is all about personal preference.
P.s. I also love drones owning four of them and cant stop using them :D


Can't wait to bust one out for a wedding! Blow peoples minds! haha
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 9:25 am

AJKinOHIO wrote:Agree! lol. When Kurt Cobain went to Fender to design a hybrid of a Mustang and Jag, the only reason he was able to get everything he wanted out of a guitar was because he had a unique relationship with Fender.

As a guitar beginner, I have to admit it's always down to the guitarist and not the gear. Same applies to photo/videography, it is the person who has control over the gear not the other way around. Understanding and knowing what your gear is capable of is the first step.

AJKinOHIO wrote:You don't find 6k, 8k, to be overkill? 4k is the standard so I never understood shooting in anything above 4, or buying a TV above 4. shrug.

No, not at all. You will have more room to reframe, crop, resize, etc when delivering in 4K downsized fro 6K or higher, while maintaining high quality footage.

AJKinOHIO wrote:Indeed! In my approach, this is where the homework starts because it narrows down the homework I have to do before buying :) This thread has been extremely helpful including your posts, so I thank you!

Finding the best gear for your needs is an enjoyable journey, you will gather more knowledge. :)
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 9:55 am

AJKinOHIO wrote:
mickspixels wrote:No - there is a very good reason for having 8K (or 6K or 12K as in some of the BMD cameras) and that is because these high MP sensors give loads of leeway for cropping, zooming and panning in post if delivering in 4K. Lots of people have 12K Ursas but I doubt anyone delivers in 12K. I presume they are delivering in 6K or 8K. It's pretty much the same shooting in 8K or 6K and delivering in 4K.


Maybe I was just thinking purely from a broadcast standpoint because of the cost. Those def sound like big advantages but an 8k camera or above gets redic expensive. I'm just aiming at a good AF camera for $3k or less. Those other cameras down the line sound justified especially your comment about might having to do something on the fly at the wedding and no time to make it perfect but can fix that up in post whereas you wouldn't have that option for a 4k camera. Very good tip. Thanks!


The Nikon Z8 is around $4000 which is not ridiculously expensive at all considering what it is capable of doing with video and stills. It won multiple camera of the year awards in 2023. Bundled with the 24-120 Z lens it is less than $5000 (or much less in sales). The 24-120 Z lens is a very high quality zoom - probably the best zoom lens ever made in this range for hybrid mirrorless or DSLR. I could use this for wedding photography with no other lens required. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy one - just clarifying that the costs are not as massive as you might think.
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Re: Fork in the road - stay with BMPC or go to... ?

PostMon Feb 26, 2024 1:26 pm

AJKinOHIO wrote:
AlwaysWritePat wrote:as a wedding videographer... canon r5, c70 or sony fx3/fx30 should be your choice.


Thanks! Which of these do you prefer and why?



I prefer the Canon C70.. Ive been using an FX3 strictly for music & model videos which I always sent off to an editor, the one time I had to edit myself, I sold it and added a C70 to my fleet the next week... C70 has better colors, better codecs, better build quality, and a more pleasing image all without spending significant time in post. IMO it's between the C70 and KomodoX for the best "all-purpose" camera you can get... C70 is 1/2 the price.
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