Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

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John Paines

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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 18, 2024 6:17 pm

Michel Rabe wrote:Yes but I do notice that I need to put more post work in some cameras than others to get them to a look I like. These are differences, as Darko excellently said, subtle and huge at the same time.


But that doesn't speak to the quality, or the pliability, of the footage. As a personal preference or a reflection of your own abilities (and the limits of those abilities), the choice is sensible. But as a general proclamation -- no.

And I can't agree that the differences, today, are "huge". A low-budget movie shot with a camera capable of 14 stops instead of 12 will not be 4 times as good. or look 4 times as good. Assuming the DP was competent, there will be no meaningful difference at all. And advertising that the production is using an "IMAX-equivalent" format (sort of, maybe, not really) with 14 or 16 or 18 stops won't help with casting.

joe12south wrote:My core argument is that there is a "good enough" point for all of these characteristics after which technical improvements don't materially matter because they are either beyond what we can perceive or are useful to manipulate in post.


For a low budget production, that point was reached years ago. Shortcomings of the production, including the personnel working on it, overwhelm differences between sensors among reasonably good cameras today, including any number <$5K.

For the likes of us, these concerns amount to sport. Or entertainment. There's also a less polite word for it.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 18, 2024 6:50 pm

John Paines wrote:For a low budget production, that point was reached years ago. Shortcomings of the production, including the personnel working on it, overwhelm differences between sensors among reasonably good cameras today, including any number <$5K.

Couldn't agree more. And by extension, the inverse is true: the least impactful factor on a big budget set is the difference in PQ between cameras. (Hell, at this point lenses have a much more discernable impact on look than sensors.)

- Choosing a V-Raptor XL over a V-Raptor because it speeds up the camera department makes total sense.

- Choosing an FX-3 over a Venice 2 because you need to mount it to someone's head when they jump out of plane makes total sense.

- Choosing an Alexa LF over an Alexa 35 because you need to shoot close and wide makes total sense.

- Picking camera A over camera B for some minute difference in color rendition that any decent colorist can dial away? Not so much.

Honestly, when looking at the Ursa Cine, the number one thing that I would consider has nothing to do with the image, it's "Do I want to deal with proprietary media?"
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 18, 2024 7:02 pm

joe12south wrote:Honestly, when looking at the Ursa Cine, the number one thing that I would consider has nothing to do with the image, it's "Do I want to deal with proprietary media?"


That media is a steal for 8TB, Joe and 1 is included too; I couldn't believe the price of 'official' Burano media! It makes sense too with ever increasing demands of framerates and codecs, that stretch even the newest existing cards. You can still use USB-C and they are coming out with a CFExpress module, apparently.

My only concerns would be support, service and reliability; been lucky touch wood with my BMD gear but luck is a mighty nervous feeling to go to a job on. Can't fault anything else I see; beyond my needs and reach but an absolute bargain and hell of a tool to many.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 18, 2024 7:26 pm

A magazine with dual CFe cards was announced.

How convenient for the expert to have left this fact out.

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WahWay

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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 18, 2024 9:39 pm

John Brawley wrote:A magazine with dual CFe cards was announced.

How convenient for the expert to have left this fact out.

JB


Do you still get all the frame rates with the dual CF Express cards module?
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 12:21 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
joe12south wrote:Honestly, when looking at the Ursa Cine, the number one thing that I would consider has nothing to do with the image, it's "Do I want to deal with proprietary media?"


That media is a steal for 8TB, Joe and 1 is included too; I couldn't believe the price of 'official' Burano media! It makes sense too with ever increasing demands of framerates and codecs, that stretch even the newest existing cards. You can still use USB-C and they are coming out with a CFExpress module, apparently.

My only concerns would be support, service and reliability; been lucky touch wood with my BMD gear but luck is a mighty nervous feeling to go to a job on. Can't fault anything else I see; beyond my needs and reach but an absolute bargain and hell of a tool to many.

I totally get why BMD did it, and also that you have the choice of a CF-Express modules and USB-C hard drives if you don't need to record at the highest data rates. Apologies, I should have been more clear: the point I was trying to make is that a quality-of-life feature such as that media module is a more meaningful factor in making a decision than some vague "improved color" that no one can or is willing to demonstrate.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 12:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:A magazine with dual CFe cards was announced.

How convenient for the expert to have left this fact out.

JB

Answered above.

As someone who's actually shot on the new cam, maybe you could explain how BMD has improved the "color"? How does it compare to the Ursa 12K? (I understand what we net from full frame and higher dynamic range.) Could you describe the color differences in practical terms?
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 2:26 pm

I have to assume they will make a single drive offloader? Something that could potentially run off usb-c power? or 12v DC power?
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 3:16 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:I have to assume they will make a single drive offloader? Something that could potentially run off usb-c power? or 12v DC power?

A USB-C port on the mag - er, "media module" - would have been appreciated for offloading in a pinch, even if it is slower than the dock. Z-Blades and KineMags both have this handy feature.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 3:57 pm

joe12south wrote:
Adam Langdon wrote:I have to assume they will make a single drive offloader? Something that could potentially run off usb-c power? or 12v DC power?

A USB-C port on the mag - er, "media module" - would have been appreciated for offloading in a pinch, even if it is slower than the dock. Z-Blades and KineMags both have this handy feature.


Adding Thunderbolt via USB-C (for example, Thunderbolt 3) to the media module could be very inexpensive. There are many 3rd party TB3 external storage devices available, some of which sell for less than $75 without media.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 4:27 pm

If there is one thing that scares me as a director, that is media.
Most under appreciated link in the chain.

Having properly tested and approved media by the camera manufacturer
is the only way to go if you ask me.
Especially at this un heard of resolution of 17K.
I would imagine BMD tried to prevent all the issues and failures when consumers
start experimenting with different cards.

The Fact that is included free with camera purchase, i see no reason to complain with 8TB capacity.
Some people will always complain and those ones are unlikely to actually go and produce anything as all their energy is wasted on these negative things...
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 5:49 pm

The thing I like about them is the Magazine concept; getting away from flimsy computer media; and the case they made for them, no one has mentioned. These will be good in a rental situation where 2 or 3 won't cost much at all, too.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 7:18 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:If there is one thing that scares me as a director, that is media.
Most under appreciated link in the chain.

Having properly tested and approved media by the camera manufacturer
is the only way to go if you ask me.
Especially at this un heard of resolution of 17K.
I would imagine BMD tried to prevent all the issues and failures when consumers
start experimenting with different cards.

The Fact that is included free with camera purchase, i see no reason to complain with 8TB capacity.
Some people will always complain and those ones are unlikely to actually go and produce anything as all their energy is wasted on these negative things...

As a director, I feel ya. As an owner/operator, it gives me pause. A "reader" (Media Dock) costs $2K. It will be difficult to expect your average DIT to own one, versus most will have a CODEX reader.

So that means lugging around a not very portable extra piece of kit. Or owning multiples. The rental prospects for this camera are already low, the proprietary media makes it even more so. So longer and harder to make back the camera cost. The V-Raptor and it's standard media starts looking a lot more appealing.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 8:36 pm

I suspect that Blackmagic will unveil a Single Media Module Dock Reader later this year. I'm pretty sure they've gotten feedback at NAB from people asking for it. I know a few people have expressed concern on this Forum.

So, the result may be a $700 Single Media Module Dock Reader.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 8:54 pm

joe12south wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:If there is one thing that scares me as a director, that is media.
Most under appreciated link in the chain.

Having properly tested and approved media by the camera manufacturer
is the only way to go if you ask me.
Especially at this un heard of resolution of 17K.
I would imagine BMD tried to prevent all the issues and failures when consumers
start experimenting with different cards.

The Fact that is included free with camera purchase, i see no reason to complain with 8TB capacity.
Some people will always complain and those ones are unlikely to actually go and produce anything as all their energy is wasted on these negative things...

As a director, I feel ya. As an owner/operator, it gives me pause. A "reader" (Media Dock) costs $2K. It will be difficult to expect your average DIT to own one, versus most will have a CODEX reader.

So that means lugging around a not very portable extra piece of kit. Or owning multiples. The rental prospects for this camera are already low, the proprietary media makes it even more so. So longer and harder to make back the camera cost. The V-Raptor and it's standard media starts looking a lot more appealing.


I agree, it will all come down to image, will have to wait and see.
I have high expectations, BMD gave us a lot 10 years ago for $999
keen to see CineD reviews soon and how it compares to Raptor and whether those stops are real or constructed like in claims by Red.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostFri Apr 19, 2024 9:08 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:I agree, it will all come down to image, will have to wait and see.
I have high expectations, BMD gave us a lot 10 years ago for $999
keen to see CineD reviews soon and how it compares to Raptor and whether those stops are real or constructed like in claims by Red.

I think Blackmagic is generally honest with their claimed dynamic range. The 15-stops of the 4.6K was a higher claim than Arri with 14-stops for the Alexa, and the Alexa easily had more dynamic range. But everyone always said that Arri is too modest in their dynamic range claims. But that may have also been because RED really claimed more than they got. The 4.6K easily was about half a stop or so less than Alexa. I shot b-cam with Alexa a good amount the last several years and it held up well with it.

With the 12K Blackmagic claimed 14 stops, and many have said it has equal dynamic range to the 4.6K. Some have even said the dynamic range is better. So, if Blackmagic was being more modest or honest with the S35 12K then the new VistaVision 12K with 16 stops must really be that much of an improvement over the last S35 12K.

Time and tests will tell. My expectations are high considering the price tag on this camera. But it is also rich with features. I'd even suspect that you can easily make the camera last 5+ years without worry, and in that time it should pay itself off. If you can't pay it off in 5+ years of use then you're not running your business right and your accountant will not be happy with you.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 2:01 am

I expect that it should be possible download files from the Cine12K media module through the camera's network ethernet port, since it is already claimed to be wifi compatible to the cloud. I get about 45 minutes at 12K DCI 60 FPS Q3 onto a 2TB Sandisk Extreme Pro USB-C SSD, so it should be possible to get 3 hours or better on the 8TB BM media module, which is reasonable for my purposes.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 2:28 am

It’s amazing how 12K 60p eats up storage. 8 TB sounds like so much, but given the target cine market for the 12K resolution, it would appear that 8 TB, in some situations, won’t last a full day, ergo the three module media reader.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 2:41 am

Still better than ArriRAW at 6.5K :-)
Now that the cat #19 is out of the bag, test it as much as you can and use the subforum.

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Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 2:56 am

Uli, is ArriRAW uncompressed?
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 3:03 am

Tom Roper wrote:I expect that it should be possible download files from the Cine12K media module through the camera's network ethernet port, since it is already claimed to be wifi compatible to the cloud.

It will take over 2 hours to transfer 8TB over 10Gb. And WiFi seems impractical for anything but proxies. Fine if you're taking the camera back to your own NAS for editing, but you're going to need at least one other media module and a dock for offloading on set.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 3:59 am

timbutt2 wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:I agree, it will all come down to image, will have to wait and see.
I have high expectations, BMD gave us a lot 10 years ago for $999
keen to see CineD reviews soon and how it compares to Raptor and whether those stops are real or constructed like in claims by Red.

I think Blackmagic is generally honest with their claimed dynamic range. The 15-stops of the 4.6K was a higher claim than Arri with 14-stops for the Alexa, and the Alexa easily had more dynamic range. But everyone always said that Arri is too modest in their dynamic range claims. But that may have also been because RED really claimed more than they got. The 4.6K easily was about half a stop or so less than Alexa. I shot b-cam with Alexa a good amount the last several years and it held up well with it.

With the 12K Blackmagic claimed 14 stops, and many have said it has equal dynamic range to the 4.6K. Some have even said the dynamic range is better. So, if Blackmagic was being more modest or honest with the S35 12K then the new VistaVision 12K with 16 stops must really be that much of an improvement over the last S35 12K.

Yes, i feel that, CINE 12/65 will be a beast.


Time and tests will tell. My expectations are high considering the price tag on this camera. But it is also rich with features. I'd even suspect that you can easily make the camera last 5+ years without worry, and in that time it should pay itself off. If you can't pay it off in 5+ years of use then you're not running your business right and your accountant will not be happy with you.


Yes, i feel that, CINE 12/65 will be a beast.

I feel they are shifting to high end now and given what they been able to produce for sub $2500,
$15K + and probably over $50K for 65 model, i strongly believe they will deliver.

I would not be surprised if they become the first camera manufacturer to beat true ARRI Classic /LF dynamic range after 14 years of others trying hard being stuck at 12.5 true stops.
Last edited by Darko Djerich on Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 3:59 am

rick.lang wrote:is ArriRAW uncompressed?
Yes.

"The sensor readout of our ALEV3 and ALEV4 sensor is a raw Bayer frame provided as uncompressed, 12 bit/13 bit (ALEXA 35) log ARRIRAW data."

https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq
www.cinedocs.com
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 4:19 am

Thanks, Jamie. Referencing the earlier post of 12K 60p recording for 3 hours to fill the 8 TB on the URSA Cine recording BRAW Q3, I suppose BRAW Q0 in a complex scene might fill 8 TB in roughly an hour then. Things look more manageable if you’re recording 8K 24p BRAW Q3 to deliver 4K.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 4:54 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
rick.lang wrote:is ArriRAW uncompressed?
Yes.

"The sensor readout of our ALEV3 and ALEV4 sensor is a raw Bayer frame provided as uncompressed, 12 bit/13 bit (ALEXA 35) log ARRIRAW data."
Arri didn't find the clever way to compress as BM did, so they couldn't get around Red's patent. That's why so many are shooting ProRes instead.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 6:25 am

Uli Plank wrote:Arri didn't find the clever way to compress as BM did, so they couldn't get around Red's patent. That's why so many are shooting ProRes instead.


There is actually a mildly 'compressed' form of Arriraw: to about 60% of uncompressed: Codex HDE:

https://codex.online/codex-hde
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 2:54 pm

Steve Fishwick wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Arri didn't find the clever way to compress as BM did, so they couldn't get around Red's patent. That's why so many are shooting ProRes instead.


There is actually a mildly 'compressed' form of Arriraw: to about 60% of uncompressed: Codex HDE:

https://codex.online/codex-hde



Steve you can’t shoot HDE. It can only be processed later. Like a ZIP file.

JB
Last edited by John Brawley on Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 3:32 pm

timbutt2 wrote:
Darko Djerich wrote:I agree, it will all come down to image, will have to wait and see.
I have high expectations, BMD gave us a lot 10 years ago for $999
keen to see CineD reviews soon and how it compares to Raptor and whether those stops are real or constructed like in claims by Red.

I think Blackmagic is generally honest with their claimed dynamic range. The 15-stops of the 4.6K was a higher claim than Arri with 14-stops for the Alexa, and the Alexa easily had more dynamic range. But everyone always said that Arri is too modest in their dynamic range claims.



Almost every manufacturer uses a signal to noise ratio (SNR) of 1 for dynamic range tests. Arri uses a SNR of 2, which is the useable number but it yields much lower results. In camera noise reduction further skews this number for many cameras. So obviously manufacturers in their arms race for the higher number mention the SNR of 1 (and also round up quite generously). HOW many YouTube videos have you seen that mention stuff like 'The A7S II (with built in noise reduction at a SNR of 1 after rounding up half a stop) has a dynamic range of 15 stops!! That's highter than the (conservative estimate at a raw image at SNR of 2) Alexa !!!! Insane, buy this camera now via my amazon affiliate link.'
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 3:57 pm

Sean van Berlo wrote:Almost every manufacturer uses a signal to noise ratio (SNR) of 1 for dynamic range tests.


Except RED of course. They use WSA (whatever sounds awesome).
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 4:58 pm

John Brawley wrote:Steve you can’t shoot HDE. It can only be processed later. Like a ZIP file.

Yes John - there's been just no way of getting round that patent. I think it would be in camera if they could too, rather than just DIT/Data offload and zip for post; you still need to pay for a Alexa/Amira licence to use it, I believe?
Sean van Berlo wrote:Almost every manufacturer uses a signal to noise ratio (SNR) of 1 for dynamic range tests. Arri uses a SNR of 2, which is the useable number but it yields much lower results.


I doubt any manufacturer uses Imatest and SNR 1 and 2; I know the EBU never did. 'Stops' are just another way of saying Signal to Noise Ratio; and log is an artificial way to stretch that SNR; by re-distributing code values in a non-linear fashion. I don't see Cine3D's tests, as being particularly definitive or even fully useful sometimes; the correct measure is from the noise floor then you can say this camera is -48db or hopefully at least -54db for UHD/4K, SNR. Imatest was designed for still cameras; hence they came from DSLRs. DR or particularly latitude is not critical these days; it wasn't long ago that digital film cameras could manage barely more than 8 stops; on some quite high end ones, and it's rare you will need 10-12 stops much of the time. Rolling shutter tests are more useful; since FF has made that rather poor again but even there it should not be a deal breaker, in most instances. They do no resolution, moiré and aliasing tests, to see what's actually going on with sensors - which is far more important, if you do professional high end work with them.

But even then you can see there maybe useful code registers at 'SNR 1' and sometimes beyond; that can often be usefully recovered in post; not to mention how many camera manufacturers have non defeatable NR either, which can mislead the results somewhat. I'm not saying manufacturers don't naturally take the best case scenarios in their marketing; why would they ever publish 'SNR 2' figures, when no one else does. On the whole the BMD cameras have pretty much stacked up to those tests, from what I've seen.

It stands to reason that a FF 12K sensor of the same design, with bigger photosites than a Super35 mm one will have usefully more DR, for at least that reason alone. So I imagine whatever the result the Ursa Cine will be impressive; even compared to a camera costing 5 or 6 times its price, perhaps.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 5:16 pm

From an engineering point of view, most of the time when I hear those that make sensors talk about DR, it’s almost always calculated theoretically with straight maths and this is often what the manufacturer publishes. It’s not really wrong, it’s just never going to be possible to have those ideal circumstances.

Because they are dealing with the sensor itself, not all the processes that can affect DR and not even considering it’s HIGHLY subjective based on an individuals tolerance of noise.

So even when you go to Sony Semi and ask for the data sheets on their stock sensors they have specs that enable a DR calculation, but these are kind of in ideal circumstances.

RED dropped an image many years ago fo a dragon that appeared to show it could do 20 stops and we all know that there’s no way. Here’s a credible news site reporting this fiction in 2013

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/0 ... mic-range/

There’s really just no agreed to methodology for measuring DR that EVERYONE agrees to and then you have ridiculous phrases like “useable” dr.

The closest we have is someone being systematic about it and doing it the same way with the same people making judgements like CINED, but a lot of people have problems with heir methodologies as well.

I’ve always been reluctant to talk about any DR in stops. All I can ever safely do is talk about DR in comparison to other cameras. Does it have more? Does it have the same or is it less when shooting the same scene.

JB
Last edited by John Brawley on Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 5:23 pm

John Brawley wrote:There’s really just no agreed to methodology for measuring DR that EVERYONE agrees to and then you have ridiculous phrases like “useable” dr.
JB


This is so very true!
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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSat Apr 20, 2024 8:44 pm

I'm glad to see my 1-year old post has aged well ...
viewtopic.php?p=939518#p939518

... even if none of the new or recent Blackmagic cameras are likely to be purchased by me. That's cool. I'm happy for folks for whom the new cams "fit". It's all good.

As always, I look forward to seeing what Blackmagic releases going forward. Onward!
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 10:57 am

rick.lang wrote:It’s amazing how 12K 60p eats up storage. 8 TB sounds like so much, but given the target cine market for the 12K resolution, it would appear that 8 TB, in some situations, won’t last a full day, ergo the three module media reader.


Yes in some situations but typically the included 8TB module should easily cover a (film production) day of 12K 8:1 (24fps) - except David Fincher is directing of course :)
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 1:08 pm

Aside: At least Alfred Hitchcock is no longer terrorizing actresses while doing 150 take shots.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 1:28 pm

Rick, you have the wrong director there. Hitchcock was notorious for very low shooting ratios, in part to prevent the studio from cutting the film in any way other than he conceived it, shot for shot. No "coverage".

You're probably thinking of Stanley Kubrick, who would routinely demand 70-80 takes to get the actors to stop doing what they regarded as "acting". Performance by exhaustion.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 5:29 pm

Good point, John. I was referring to a single scene in Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds 1963 in which Tippi Hedren was attacked by real birds (who had a handler off camera). The scene took 150 takes because our esteemed director didn’t like the acting ‘scared’ either; he repeated the scene until Tippi was both exhausted and really terrified. Years ago I saw a behind the scenes reveal of what went on to get that shot with Tippi narrating and revealing how terrified she became.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 5:42 pm

Well, you caught me there.... Had forgotten about that one. 5 days for 1 minute of screen time.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 5:54 pm

rick.lang wrote:Years ago I saw a behind the scenes reveal of what went on to get that shot with Tippi narrating and revealing how terrified she became.


Except, Hedren seemed to have changed her story over the years, Rick. I have some DVDs, where she's full of praise about Hitchcock and how it was nothing; then she wrote a book later and then suddenly it became a very dark episode. I don't know what documentary that was; but it's doubtful, there was actual behind the scenes footage; since I don't think any was shot. I had the memorable experience of once sitting down over a week of breakfasts, with Saul Bass, famous for many of Hitchcock's great title and special sequences, amongst others; when he was helping us develop a treatment about him. And although he didn't work on this film, he too had nothing bad to say about Hitch. Neither too did Grace Kelly, nor his other leading ladies. He was of course famous for saying, "Actors are just cattle"; and "The moron masses", for the audience; but that was his famous wry humor; and also he was famous for his particular perfectionism in the setup too; but there is a distinct lack of others who have come forward to tell of a sadistic pattern.

What is known is their relationship irrevocably broke down, when she shouted at him and humiliated him, in front of the crew on set; something his very English reserve couldn't countenance; and went and got pregnant before the next film also too.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 7:46 pm

I've been going back through old threads about the release of new cameras, and gathering my thoughts on them. (this is more of a 'my journey' thing, if you don't want to read, haha.)

The first time I got my hands on a Blackmagic Design camera was the Ursa Mini 4k. We shot some green screen projects on it and it was fantastic in well-lit scenes. So when I moved to the URSA Mini 4.6k, I was amazed at how much cleaner it looked...and with a base ISO of 800! Plus all that dynamic range.
Then the URSA Mini Pro came out with internal NDs and I was amazed at the ability to move so much faster. THEN the G2... ~8ms readout speed?!?! Plus those frame rates.... I was sold.
The Pockets were all great, and the 6k sensor was really nice.
GEN5 Color!!! wow, what a time to be alive and be in the business of making moving images.

And then, when the URSA Mini 12k came out, it was $10k, and all the sudden I wasn't upgrading just yet. Even after the price came down, I couldn't see a reason to upgrade. Then I got my hands on one and truly loved the image. There's a quality about it, that is just...better than the UMPG2. I was shooting in 8k for interviews and boy was I going through data. I decided to set the 12k up as a true cinema camera and only use it for 'big time' projects. But then, I wasn't using it much. There were great commercials I filmed with it. Clients loved the images and editors didn't mind BRAW only shoots.

When the L Mount 6k FF was announced, I preorder it. "Finally," I thought, "I'll put my full-frame cinema glass to full use!" And yes, the images looked fantastic. Shot about 6 months worth of projects and was thrilled with the results and set aside the limitations of low light and rolling shutter.

But then I had a feeling BMD was going to release something soon. SO, I sold my friend's 12k for him while it still had value (approximately $4500 used, but the money went to him not me, haha).
Prior to the Livestream, I made a list of features I would deem 'worth the upgrade'
- Crazy amount of resolution
- Has to have at least 15 Stops of Dynamic Range
- Internal ND filters of some kind
- Faster readout times, better than or equal to the 12k s35
- Take CF Express Media or something just as fast
- Has to be around $10k
And what do you know, they released a BEAST of a camera. The Ursa Cine, that checkmarks ALL on my lists except the price. I was off by $5k.

So, I guess, in summary, there's been improvements to the Cinema line of Blackmagic cameras for a long while, and I have moved up with each release. But not this time, I think. At least, not yet.

I ended up selling my 6k FF and a FF zoom lens that I was using and went back to the Pocket 6k Pro for most of my small-time documentary work and purchased a used UMPG2 for larger client work. All in all, I paid the same amount for two great cameras that can do two different jobs for the price of one L Mount FF Pocket-style camera rigged up with cage and all... that I HATED rigging up. The Pyxis just isn't for me and that's ok.

I'm gonna have to see if the Ursa Cine is feasible in the coming year. Freelance work is so random and rewarding and uncertain. I honestly DON'T see BMD lowering the cost of the Ursa Cine ever. Maybe for the Ursa Cine G2, but really, it's just out of my price range right now.

/rant
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 8:14 pm

Steve, sorry I can’t find a video on YouTube of what I watched. Too long ago to recall production of the show where Tippi discussed the scene while we watched black and white shots, pulled back to encompass more of the set and see the bird handler. It wasn’t cuts from the released movie. And it wasn’t a favorable view of the director.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostSun Apr 21, 2024 11:43 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:I've been going back through old threads about the release of new cameras, and gathering my thoughts on them. (this is more of a 'my journey' thing, if you don't want to read, haha.)

The first time I got my hands on a Blackmagic Design camera was the Ursa Mini 4k. We shot some green screen projects on it and it was fantastic in well-lit scenes. So when I moved to the URSA Mini 4.6k, I was amazed at how much cleaner it looked...and with a base ISO of 800! Plus all that dynamic range.
Then the URSA Mini Pro came out with internal NDs and I was amazed at the ability to move so much faster. THEN the G2... ~8ms readout speed?!?! Plus those frame rates.... I was sold.
The Pockets were all great, and the 6k sensor was really nice.
GEN5 Color!!! wow, what a time to be alive and be in the business of making moving images.

And then, when the URSA Mini 12k came out, it was $10k, and all the sudden I wasn't upgrading just yet. Even after the price came down, I couldn't see a reason to upgrade. Then I got my hands on one and truly loved the image. There's a quality about it, that is just...better than the UMPG2. I was shooting in 8k for interviews and boy was I going through data. I decided to set the 12k up as a true cinema camera and only use it for 'big time' projects. But then, I wasn't using it much. There were great commercials I filmed with it. Clients loved the images and editors didn't mind BRAW only shoots.

When the L Mount 6k FF was announced, I preorder it. "Finally," I thought, "I'll put my full-frame cinema glass to full use!" And yes, the images looked fantastic. Shot about 6 months worth of projects and was thrilled with the results and set aside the limitations of low light and rolling shutter.

But then I had a feeling BMD was going to release something soon. SO, I sold my friend's 12k for him while it still had value (approximately $4500 used, but the money went to him not me, haha).
Prior to the Livestream, I made a list of features I would deem 'worth the upgrade'
- Crazy amount of resolution
- Has to have at least 15 Stops of Dynamic Range
- Internal ND filters of some kind
- Faster readout times, better than or equal to the 12k s35
- Take CF Express Media or something just as fast
- Has to be around $10k
And what do you know, they released a BEAST of a camera. The Ursa Cine, that checkmarks ALL on my lists except the price. I was off by $5k.

So, I guess, in summary, there's been improvements to the Cinema line of Blackmagic cameras for a long while, and I have moved up with each release. But not this time, I think. At least, not yet.

I ended up selling my 6k FF and a FF zoom lens that I was using and went back to the Pocket 6k Pro for most of my small-time documentary work and purchased a used UMPG2 for larger client work. All in all, I paid the same amount for two great cameras that can do two different jobs for the price of one L Mount FF Pocket-style camera rigged up with cage and all... that I HATED rigging up. The Pyxis just isn't for me and that's ok.

I'm gonna have to see if the Ursa Cine is feasible in the coming year. Freelance work is so random and rewarding and uncertain. I honestly DON'T see BMD lowering the cost of the Ursa Cine ever. Maybe for the Ursa Cine G2, but really, it's just out of my price range right now.

/rant

Great journey!

I'm slightly similar. I started with the original Blackmagic Cinema Camera 2.5K back in 2013. Loved the image. I treated it like Super 16mm Film and got amazing results. Went back to rewatch "Rosary" the Troy Ramey Music Video released a decade ago. Beautiful!

Even then CinemaDNG RAW was a lot to handle as 30-min was around 256 GB worth of data. Luckily by 2015 Compressed CinemaDNG came to the the 2.5K and 45-min now was around 256 GB. But then I got the original URSA Mini 4.6K.

The Original URSA Mini 4.6K was an amazing camera. I just rewatched "Bolero Beach" which I released 7-years ago today. So much great footage from that camera. CinemaDNG was a little better to handle thanks to more compression options in the UM4.6K and 4:1 CinemaDNG would get you around 30-min worth of footage in 256 GB, which made it like shooting the original 2.5K again in terms of data.

Then the URSA Mini Pro G2! Oh boy. This was the best camera hands down. Most versatile because it had all the features but still could shoot HD ProRes for the clients that needed it. But the internal ND was amazing and prompted me to not want a camera without internal ND ever again. I loved having the option to shoot up to 120 FPS full sensor. The rolling shutter was fantastic because the sensor readout was so fast.

Then I got the Pocket 6K when I sold my UM4.6K to be a B-Cam. It was fine. But never was a fan of the form factor or the downgraded features compared to the UMPG2. So I got the Pocket 6K Pro when it was announced. Modified it to PL and eventually sold the Pocket 6K. Still the P6KPro couldn't compare for me to the UMPG2. But it was fine enough as the B-Cam I needed at times.

I haven't the funds to buy the URSA Cine 12K, but I would love to shoot on one. It checks every box I have asked for over the years in terms of upgrades and improvements. The only thing missing is the Video Assist Camera Control... but, I suspect that is coming in a future Video Assist release.

Still, for clients still asking for ProRes I need to use the other cameras. And, sometimes clients still don't like the size of ProRes and prefer we shoot Sony or Canon for their compressed codecs. It is what it is for the paid client work. But when the client has no issue with us shooting BRAW then it is a fantastic thing.

I can't wait to see what the future holds with Blackmagic Cameras. My hope is for eventually the PYXIS for fit as the perfect replacement for the URSA Mini Pro G2 by having better frame rates and bringing back ProRes recording for those clients that need it. As a lower cost option it is needed. Otherwise, I'm fine with the URSA Cine line never having ProRes and staying with BRAW.

It's been a fantastic 11-years of using Blackmagic Cameras for me. And, I'm sure the future years will continue to be fantastic when using Blackmagic Cameras.
"I'm well trained in the art of turning **** to gold." - Tim Buttner (timbutt2)

Cameras: URSA Mini Pro G2 & Pocket 6K Pro
Past: UM4.6K, P6K, BMCC 2.5K
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostMon Apr 22, 2024 12:52 pm

I have a couple of questions about the URSA Cine, not sure if they have been answered before or not.

- Does the URSA Cine 17K support PL and Locking EF mounts as well, or is it only LPL and Hasselblad?

- I know the URSA Cine comes with a B-Mount battery plate, and BM announced they will release V-Mount and Gold Mount adapters as well. Does anyone know if the camera is 24 volts only or can it also take power from a 12 volt battery?
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostMon Apr 22, 2024 1:33 pm

All the mounts will work. There are actually a few sets of PL mount lenses that cover the full image area required for full sensor on this 17K 65mm camera as well such as the Leitz Thalias, TLS Mamiya, and the Otto Nemenz Ottoblads.

It is a myth that LPL is REQUIRED to cover that image circle... it just gives you some more useful options.

Yes the camera will work with 12V batteries but will have some limitations for frame rates and power output when working in this lower voltage range. Ideally 24V batteries (B Mount, Gold Mount Plus etc) are a better choice here which is why the camera ships with B mount.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostMon Apr 22, 2024 1:44 pm

Mid49 appear to work on a boost converter for standard Gold and V-Mount batteries to enable frame rate options that would be restricted otherwise on the Ursa Cine.

min 2:20
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostTue Apr 23, 2024 7:49 am

Tim Schumann wrote:All the mounts will work. There are actually a few sets of PL mount lenses that cover the full image area required for full sensor on this 17K 65mm camera as well such as the Leitz Thalias, TLS Mamiya, and the Otto Nemenz Ottoblads.

It is a myth that LPL is REQUIRED to cover that image circle... it just gives you some more useful options.

Yes the camera will work with 12V batteries but will have some limitations for frame rates and power output when working in this lower voltage range. Ideally 24V batteries (B Mount, Gold Mount Plus etc) are a better choice here which is why the camera ships with B mount.


Great, thank you.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostTue Apr 23, 2024 1:49 pm

WahWay wrote:Here is my prediction. Ursa Cine will flop in sales. I like the spec but Blackmagic is not a premium brand in the camera world unless it takes steps into addressing repairs and services. They just about got away with it in the past because of the generally low cost nature of their cameras but anything close to and now beyond £10k ultimately consign the Ursa Cine to the rental stores. Like all BMD cameras it initially get a few firmware updates but later on with cost vs sales you won't see much firmware support for this camera.

This is a boffins camera with much less if any input from consumers. The last time this happen was the Big Ursa and we all know what happen to that one. It will be £7k by year's end if BMD is to recover losses.


I don’t know whether it will be flop or not, but yes Blackmagic after sales service is almost non-existent. That’s where all serious camera manufacturers excel. Some manufacturers even provide you with a backup camera if your camera develops some snag and is away for servicing.
We never minded this almost no repair support from BMD, because most of their cameras are way cheaper than its competitors.
But with this camera things need to change. Otherwise no rental house or a cinematographer will not feel confident.
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 25, 2024 4:15 am

I think folks have unreasonable support expectations for a 15k camera. Spend 200k on a Fujinon lens, know what service and support is included? It’s not much. I work for vendors that have hudreds of millions of dollars invested with various mfrs including premium support packages and I’ve never had anything other than great phone support on the day. Sure, they’re sorry that the equipment has failed, they might have a replacement FedExed in 2 days if it’s not a weekend.

Post sales support could be improved for sure but this idea that a backup camera and support needs to be immediately available (for free) is unrealistic at best.

Good Luck
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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 25, 2024 6:19 am

Have to say I agree.

Arri aren’t giving out loaner cameras either. I have a 150k Arri SRH360 head that needed work and it was 6 weeks to go to Austria and back. No loaner.

JB
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Ursa Cine - Facts and findings

PostThu Apr 25, 2024 8:40 am

Howard Roll wrote:I think folks have unreasonable support expectations for a 15k camera. Spend 200k on a Fujinon lens, know what service and support is included? It’s not much.


Years ago I had a shoot in Calabria, Italy. We took a lot of gear. We set off very early. So we took the van from Southern Spain up to Barcelona, for a ferry. My camera assistant drove, that was my second mistake. I was sleeping and every time I woke up he was driving too fast. "Slow down, Jose"; "We won't get there in time boss"; "Who cares, we'll get the next one". Anyway around midway I woke to the van turning over in the air. Luckily we we're fine, but amongst the total write off was the DSR 570, which went up in the air about 100 feet and landed on it's backside. I put an IDX on it and it was still working, but the whole case was cracked and the Canon J11 torn from the mount.

Sony had that up and running like new in 2-3 days; same with Canon; and we were shooting in Italy, within the week. Maybe things have changed, Howard. But I don't think anyone expects a loaner; that's a rental situation; and big rental houses here do carry BMD cameras. But the existing situation is, as I see it; no service manuals; no parts that can be changed out individually; no fully equipped service centres (they replace normally not fix); 1 year guarantee; return to base. This is an altogether higher end camera so maybe that has all changed; but it will need to change the perception rightly or wrongly of BMD gear. Mine's been rock solid. Maybe the design inside is completely different from a service aspect, I don't know. You can buy 2 or 3 of BMD cameras for under the price of much of the high end competition. Maybe that's the way to do it. Or maybe 3rd party service/support. I have equipment insurance but that's no use in a fix. I think it's reasonable to bring those concerns up, to my mind.
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