Portable setup for high-end classical music recording?

Hello,

I'm an audio engineer and classical musician seeking a portable, unmanned video setup for pro-quality performance and studio recordings of high-end artists, including myself. Content is aimed at YouTube and social media.

Can anyone recommend a setup that satisfies these criteria?

1. Portable - I travel for 2 months at a time to perform.
2. Easy setup - Since I'm also doing audio and performing.
3. Remote control - Simplifies studio sessions; PTZ is a plus.
4. Low-light friendly - For dim venues.
5. Color-rich footage - Log recording preferred.
6. Long recording - Up to 3hrs.
7. Bonus: Good for stills - DSLR-quality for social media.

I've considered Blackmagic Micro 4K G2s with USB-C SSDs and primes, though it's not lightweight, and Sony FX30. I could supplement my setup with recent iPhones + Blackmagic camera app perhaps?

Thank you so much for your help!
Larry

Depending on your HDMI cable runs, have you considered BMPCC's plugged into an ATEM switcher.
This will give you control of all the cameras from one place.
You could do the same with Micro cameras but that would be all SDI.(I think, I could be wrong on this)
The BMPCC's would record internally and you can also record on the ATEM.

@8:51 +/- on video

Your post leaves me with many questions......

Live stream or recorded footage?
Classical? Solo, 3 piece, 5 piece, full orchestra?
Are people moving on stage or sitting posed in a chair?
Three hours of one camera angle? Is this going to be on a gib?
Low light and fast lens? Autofocus maybe?
A GoPro and tiny people?

If your question refers to sound - the mics used are critical and the Sound Devices portable recorders do a great job. I would not count on any camera for mics or sound recording. Otherwise Leon points to a nice control solution. Just my 2 cents.

I'm hoping Yannick Willox posts a reply here because this is the kind of work he does all the time.

In general, though, if you're building an unmanned system you could benefit from continuous autofocus and thus the FX30 might be the better choice unless you are only capturing wide shots at smaller apertures (higher f-stops) to maximize depth of field. If you (singer) and other musicians are moving around, autofocus is going to help; if you don't move much then assuring adequate depth of field could work without autofocus.

The BMPCC 4K and Micro 4K G2 have a smaller sensor and will have more depth of field for a given aperture, but if low-light performance is an issue the Sony might be better in that regard. However, I'd much rather work with Blackmagic raw than Sony footage any day. I'm pretty sure Yannick is using Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4K and seems to be happy with it.

One thing to bear in mind is that the FX30 and the Blackmagic options you're considering all have active cooling, which means fans, and that means fan noise. It's not loud, but depending on where your cameras are in relation to your mic stand(s) it could present a problem: you just need to capture some room tone that includes the fan noise and remove it in post. In most other genres of music this wouldn't be a consideration but in classical it is.

All that said, given your portability constraints and the fact that you'll be toting your MixPre 6II, stand, and microphone(s) as well, your most practical solution might be two iPhone 15s on stands, as long as you can be sure of adequate lighting; you will at least be able to match their footage easily in post. A mix of iPhone and Blackmagic or Sony is going to be harder to match. And if you only need one stereo pair of mics, you could run a Sonosax M2D2 into one of the iPhones to get world-class audio recording quality with a smaller footprint than your MixPre 6. You sacrifice some image quality and low-light performance with the iPhones, plus there's the inconvenience of variable frame rates, but you gain a lot in portability and that's a priority for you. As a bonus you get continuous autofocus and dead-silent performance, although I don't know about time limits for recording; I have almost no video experience with smartphones. If you have enough storage space on the phone then 3 hours should be no challenge, but I don't know at what point overheating becomes a problem.

Hi all,

Appreciate the input; took time to review your suggestions.

Details: Classical music, usually 2-4 musicians, fixed positions, occasional unmanned single-camera livestream later. No jib planned.

Sound: Schoeps mics + RME Babyface Pro + 12Mic -> laptop. I have MixPre-6 II if I need more portability.

Timecode: none on RME. Any advice?

Remote: ATEM looks perfect but cable runs are difficult with possible mezzanine-level cameras. Is there any other solution?

Cameras: Concerned about fan noise - I have Izotope but how much noise are we talking? iPhone 15 is an interesting option if I could automate some of the color-matching workflow, but is the zoom enough? This is a cinematography question, but it affects camera selection: where should the cameras be? Nice example, though more cameras:

Thank you again!
Larry

Cameras: Concerned about fan noise - I have Izotope but how much noise are we talking? iPhone 15 is an interesting option if I could automate some of the color-matching workflow, but is the zoom enough? This is a cinematography question, but it affects camera selection: where should the cameras be? Nice example, though more cameras:

Fan noise depends on how many cameras you have running and their distance and position from the mics: the fan is quiet, but in classical music where you often have moments of silence in the music, or very quiet playing, recording engineers try to eliminate any sources of noise such as HVAC systems etc. I have picked up fan noise in one-person interviews where my camera was about two meters away from the mic, but I doubt it'll be a concern in your use case. Some high-end audio recording devices commonly used in classical music have cooling fans too, although those devices are usually in a control room. Note that your laptop may have a fan too, unless it's a Macbook Air, and laptop fans can come on unpredictably. Music recording is an undemanding job for a laptop, but mine has occasionally had the fan kick in during recording sessions (one reason why I switched to a Macbook Air).

Ultimately you have to compromise somewhere: you want portability, multiple camera angles, high image quality, good low-light performance, and excellent sound quality (from separate standalone audio recording rig). To get the best image quality and low-light performance you'll have to compromise on portability. To get the best portability you'll have to compromise on image quality and low-light performance.

... To get the best image quality and low-light performance you'll have to compromise on portability. To get the best portability you'll have to compromise on image quality and low-light performance.

I would think the Pocket ameras such as the BMPCC4K shooting at 1250 ISO or 1600 ISO would more than satisfy the dynamic range demands in that scenario and might only require mild noise reduction.

Recommend the MixPre II series either MixPre-6 II or the MixPre-10M. Use 32bit audio. I believe the MixPre II series has excellent Timecode and you can feed its Timecode to an external camera, but I haven’t done that.

I believe the MixPre II series has excellent Timecode and you can feed its Timecode to an external camera, but I haven’t done that.

It's also worth considering that Resolve does an excellent job of syncing by waveform, so if you don't want to mess with timecode that's a viable option with your limited camera count. Syncing by waveform in Resolve has always worked well for me for music.

run all your mics to the MixPre-6 II then you don't have to worry about levels.

pick up some tentacle syncs (or similar) and then you can use any camera that supports an external mic.

I don't know if I would recorder for hours continuously though (even if using timecode), a lot of cameras don't have an accurate enough internal clock for that!

Thank you so much for the great help, all.

1. I've removed HVAC noise in classical music with Izotope. Do BM/Sony fans run non-stop? Is Izotope effective for camera fan noise removal?

2. I own MixPre-6 II (love the 32bit) and ordered RME for superior preamps. Are there timecode options when recording to laptop via RME - DAW + tentacle syncs? (On my current project, Resolve won't waveform-sync MixPre-6 audio.)

3. How's Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 low-light performance compared to the Pocket cameras?

4. Max recording time: 2-3 hrs (then a 15min break).

Thanks again!

Larry

(On my current project, Resolve won't waveform-sync MixPre-6 audio.)

How many channels are you importing into Resolve?

I waveform-synced about 50 clips from a MixPre 6 in Resolve last month with no issues at all, but I just imported the R-L mix, not the individual channels. You can also import the individual channels but do the waveform sync to the stereo mix.

Timecode is great, but it's one more thing for you to set up when you're recording yourself, and even though the Tentacles are small it's one more set of things to bring (and batteries to charge).

Good if you can refresh the Timecode during the break.

Timecode is great, but it's one more thing for you to set up when you're recording yourself, and even though the Tentacles are small it's one more set of things to bring (and batteries to charge).

Tentacles have built in batteries that charge via USB. A full change will easily last for 24hrs.

Hi Larry,
I wouldn't bother with tentacles now in a first test run, they can be added later, if needed...
For noise, I also doubt, that camera fan noise is an issue... at the worst case, you will have let's say three cams, one close to the main overheads (cardoid ORTF or XY ?), which will anyway be flewn high above over your group.
The other far away points are ambience (omni mics), but they will be mixed in very quietly and minimal... there will be more noise coming from the audience, I assume... and again, mics are high, cam is lower...

3. How's Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 low-light performance compared to the Pocket cameras?

According to Blackmagic, they are identical, I even assume same MFT sensor.
Here is a thread, where I'm collecting multiple facts for the 4kG2 cam:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=190223

if you can live with fullHD, I'd anyway go with ATEM Mini switches (recording only there on USB disk), but I'd consider running let's say 2-3 4kG2 cams via HDMI wireless transmitters, like hollyland mars.
By that, you get rid of lenghty cabeling, but you also sacrifice a nifty feature of the ATEM, which would be the automatic RECORD setting to all 4kG2 via HDMI signal. If you stick with ATEM recording ,you have no disks on the cams, so you dont need to hit REC, though...

So, the beginning of a recording could mean:
* switch on REC on the ATEM & RME laptop
* (if you use cam disks) run to each cam, hit record
* go to center stage, clap your hands, let the audience in


just my 2 cents,

Mike

...
* go to center stage, clap your hands...

Actually this is good advice. No matter how good your timecode sync there can be the issue of multiple mics at different distances. Syncing to a clap from the sound source should account for that.

Tentacles have built in batteries that charge via USB. A full change will easily last for 24hrs.

I know, but you still have to remember to charge them. When you're traveling this frequently with a minimal set of equipment and you're often one of the musicians being recorded (true in Larry's case), the less you have to think about/remember to do, the better. I don't think he'll have the luxury of a control room, flying the mics high (only small portable stands that can be carried on airplanes), etc.; this is not going to be your standard classical music recording and video setup.

If it were me, I'd hire someone to do all the recording and video, but given that Larry wants to do it all himself it's worth looking for every way possible to simplify the task and minimize the amount of equipment that needs to be set up and looked after.

The RME Babyface is an excellent choice. A friend has one and I've listened to the recordings which are pristine. Unfortunately I have not checked out the I/O on the unit. Reading about it, it claims to have 4 in continuous, two xlr and two trs. If this is correct you could record linear time code (analog waveform) directly to one of the trs inputs. I would use 1 tentacle sync to the RMA and another to the camera. Even with that, an old school "clapper" at the beginning of the recording is a good idea as Tentacle can jog a frame or so between connected devices. Tentacle sync has a free utility that will take the ltc and encode the .wav file to metadata. It can be a bit tricky. You have to watch your sample rate and you must have a broadcast chunk within the .wav file. Fan noise on BM cameras is a crap shoot. Some are louder than others right out of the factory. Mic placement and the use of shields (think vocal mic shield) can help a lot but then you are carrying more junk around diminishing portability. A BM 6K pocket (your choice of model) would be a great option as long as you had enough light to get enough depth of field to get all four without a lot of noise from high ISO settings. With a single 1T ssd you could get your time requirements at 4K with a very good compression ratio/image. I would let the camera record scratch audio for help in synchronizing in post. When I'm recording a four piece I use up to 7 cameras but that is rocky rolly stuff that people can only withstand a 3 second clip before turning the channel. I would hope classical would be different. Scratch the jib comment, that only pertained to a full orchestra or big band, e.g. fly a deca tree and hoist a camera. Obviously this is more intimate. I personally would not use a PTZ per cost and configuration. I do use GoPro's successfully for close ups of hand work on instruments. Easily mounted on music stands etc. without being obvious and if the clips are not prolonged the footage can cut nicely with cinema cameras although overheating can be a concern. Using a battery bank for the GoPro's helps with the heat dissipation a little. I cringe a little at the thought of using Isotope for noise removal on a recording that fine and detailed. At bare min I would be using something like a matched pair of Oktava Mk12's to get the more detailed nuances of the instrument voices. I have recorded a Steinway grand with a set and the result was impressive without taking out a mortgage for mic rental. Having said that, I'm sure I'm preaching the the choir per your qualifications. I'm sure you know all the rest, mic vibration isolation, yada, yada, yada.

Cameras: where should the cameras be?

If you are working with 2 to 4 musicians, how are they arranged?
Half moon facing audience?
Circle, facing each other?

The minimum amount of cameras would be 3. For basic coverage. Anything else is bonus.
Cam#2 covering a two shot of musicians on cam right.
Cam#1 covering 4 shot of group
Cam#3 covering a two shot of musicians on cam left.

Cam#4(shot of auditorium)

musicians
--0--0
0------0

Cam #2 Cam#1 Cam#3

A shot from up stage towards auditorium is always a good shot to cut to for no sync issue.(Cam#4)

If final product is in 1080 you can crop shots if shooting in 4K and above.
The advantage of using phones and small cameras is that you can mount them on something like a free standing monopod, mike stand or light stand. Something with a small footprint. Have them on stage close to action.
These small cameras should not be an issue for sight lines due to their size, they will add to the forest of stands for the mics.
I think that music goers will forgive a low profile camera(cam#1) with stand in the center of stage since they accept a conductor blocking their view of full orchestra. They are there to hear, not so much to look. I hope.
AS you get more comfortable with set up, you can add more cameras. However simple is better on the nerves and who needs more stress added to a live show.

I envy your adventure.

Interesting set up.

Imagine several Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 connected to this setup.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... udiocamera

Would this be a future ATEM?

Hi all,

Thank you for these great and inspiring ideas, which I spent the last few days exploring and researching.

1. Resolve sync: I tried syncing both main pair audio and spot mic audio; didn't work and had to do it manually. From your practical experience, how stressful is it to charge and setup timecode with something like Tentacle? Would love to avoid the setup complexity, extra gear, and batteries, so perhaps we can just clap. Recording time code into an audio port of Babyface/12Mic is brilliant, thanks.

2. Resolution: 4K will be very beneficial so we can crop and zoom in post and give some dynamic quality to the shots.

3. Self recording: Definitely want a simple setup. To clarify, my intent is also to offer video services as part of my audio recording. But I don't foresee becoming a camera op while also producing and recording audio.

4. Rack-mount recorder box: Incredible!! This is quite expensive and I wish I could just plug SSDs into each camera and start/stop via an app. If ATEM can control cameras via HDMI, is there no wifi-enabled HDMI dongle that can control the cameras?

5. Cameras: Would lack of autofocus on BM cameras be an issue? Cameras I considered:

Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera $1295 — no autofocus, no app
Sony FX30 + 18-50mm lens kit $2,350 — no ProRes
Osmo Pocket 3 — Log footage, looks much better than previous generations; PTZ is great for putting in strange spots high up. I assume the footage is still consumery.
Panasonic G85
HERO12 Black ($400) — prob still consumery
Sony a6400 + 16-50mm $1000
iPhone 15 — maybe a6400 ends up looking better for similar price and offering remote control via Sony app?

1. Resolve sync: I tried syncing both main pair audio and spot mic audio; didn't work and had to do it manually. From your practical experience, how stressful is it to charge and setup timecode with something like Tentacle?

If you develop some routine with the Tentacles it is not very stressful.
When I do my setup, I simply switch them on, when I plug them in and check if the camera reads the timecode. When all cameras (and sounddevices) are set up, I use the app to sync them (the app is really user friendly!). On the app I see the battery levels as well and in case one tentacle is low: simply plug it into something (usb charger, battery plate of the camera etc) and while you dress for concert it will be recharged enough for the evening.

But as already suggested: add timecode only when it is to hard working without. If there is no time pressure in the edit room and it is all one take (or two) and if you are the one doing all the stuff, you are probably fine doing it manually. Even without clap. You are a musician. You will be able to sync be eye and ear in less than two minutes.

5. Cameras: Would lack of autofocus on BM cameras be an issue?

I did many concerts (bands, choir) with a three camera setup. BMCC, original BMPCC and BMPCC4k. None has autofocus. I didn't miss it. Unless you want fancy closeups with shallow depth of field there is no need to change focus during concert.

Johannes

Hi all,

Thank you for these great and inspiring ideas, which I spent the last few days exploring and researching.

1. Resolve sync: I tried syncing both main pair audio and spot mic audio; didn't work and had to do it manually. From your practical experience, how stressful is it to charge and setup timecode with something like Tentacle? Would love to avoid the setup complexity, extra gear, and batteries, so perhaps we can just clap. Recording time code into an audio port of Babyface/12Mic is brilliant, thanks.

2. Resolution: 4K will be very beneficial so we can crop and zoom in post and give some dynamic quality to the shots.

3. Self recording: Definitely want a simple setup. To clarify, my intent is also to offer video services as part of my audio recording. But I don't foresee becoming a camera op while also producing and recording audio.

4. Rack-mount recorder box: Incredible!! This is quite expensive and I wish I could just plug SSDs into each camera and start/stop via an app. If ATEM can control cameras via HDMI, is there no wifi-enabled HDMI dongle that can control the cameras?

5. Cameras: Would lack of autofocus on BM cameras be an issue? Cameras I considered:

Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera $1295 — no autofocus, no app
Sony FX30 + 18-50mm lens kit $2,350 — no ProRes
Osmo Pocket 3 — Log footage, looks much better than previous generations; PTZ is great for putting in strange spots high up. I assume the footage is still consumery.
Panasonic G85
HERO12 Black ($400) — prob still consumery
Sony a6400 + 16-50mm $1000
iPhone 15 — maybe a6400 ends up looking better for similar price and offering remote control via Sony app?

Blackmagic Micro => no monitor
FX30 => 4:2:2 10bit good standard
Osmo Pocket 3 => Dlog M, 1" sensor. I have this in the Mavic 2 Pro drone and its ok not great
Hero12 => Not a perspective I would use for the full group
A6400 => Sorry no nothing about the S-log codec.

I personally don't see autofocus being an issue. I think you would want a group shot if using one camera and that would necessitate using a deep enough dof to have everything in focus all of the time. Given the above assumption a BMPCC Pocket 4K would work just fine. BM raw will produce a gorgeous image.

5. Cameras: Would lack of autofocus on BM cameras be an issue? Cameras I considered:

IMO no.

The thing with auto focus, is that as useful as it is it is also a curse.
With cameras without operators there is the risk of the autofocus hunting for focus.
This is where cameras with a small sensor are an advantage, the depth of field is greater and better for television style shooting rather than film look with shallow depth of field.

Unless the musicians are moving around a lot, once you have set focus you should be good to go.
Remember that your light levels will influence your depth of field.
The brighter the better.

It will be an advantage to have someone sitting in when setting focus but if not available you can always tour a blow up doll.

Hi Larry,

In post #6, you offer a video as a "nice example" of what you have in mind. That video was made by the Netherlands Bach Society as part of a major project to record "All of Bach". That's why the channel has half a million subscribers. The videos are not made on a shoestring. The Society has engaged a film producer. There's clearly a film crew, a sound recording crew and a post-production crew. It isn't possible to make a film like that as a one-man band, especially one who's performing at the same time as he's filming and sound recording. You might be able to make a bare bones archival recording, but it won't look anything like what the Netherlands Bach Society is making.

I'm familiar with your thread on Gearspace about coming up with a sound recording package for these performances. That thread, just on the sound recording, is currently 146 posts long because of some inherent problems with trying to be a performer and a sound recordist at the same time, and because you anticipate some issues around the level of co-operation of the sponsors of concerts.

I'd just like to suggest that you figure out what your resources are, and what the expected workflow and product are, before worrying about film gear. What's described in this thread is extraordinarily ambitious if the end product is YouTube videos.

As in the Gearspsace thread, I'm going to refer to Jacob Collier's latest video. Think about what was involved to shoot and complete this video, image and sound. On both resource and technical levels, it was easier than what you're talking about, and we know from one of the people who was involved in making it that it was properly crewed:

Rick and Brad, and perhaps some others, may be interested in knowing how Collier's voice and guitar were recorded. There's a DPA lavalière on his forehead, just under his hat. It's visible at 2:59. The guitar was recorded wirelessly, apparently from a pick-up. The cable from the guitar to the transmitter is visible a little after 3:20 and at 7:35. Mahogany Sessions, which was in charge of making the recording, says that there was no overdubbing in post.

Collier turns his entire audience into a choir at some point during his concerts. That's what he's doing here. The singers are fans who wanted to participate in the video. No rehearsal. They were just asked to show up wearing something blue.

If you develop some routine with the Tentacles it is not very stressful.
When I do my setup, I simply switch them on, when I plug them in and check if the camera reads the timecode. When all cameras (and sounddevices) are set up, I use the app to sync them (the app is really user friendly!). On the app I see the battery levels as well and in case one tentacle is low: simply plug it into something (usb charger, battery plate of the camera etc) and while you dress for concert it will be recharged enough for the evening.

But as already suggested: add timecode only when it is to hard working without. If there is no time pressure in the edit room and it is all one take (or two) and if you are the one doing all the stuff, you are probably fine doing it manually. Even without clap. You are a musician. You will be able to sync be eye and ear in less than two minutes.

Thanks Johannes, that's all very helpful. For studio sessions we are doing many takes, and in the past, sync took a couple hours and was frustrating. But it's true, it was one less thing to think about during the sessions. I will see if I can do without timecode for a bit longer, and I won't worry about lack of autofocus. (I'd like some shallow depth of field but as Leon Benzakein says, we can set this up at the beginning since we aren't moving around so much.)

Blackmagic Micro => no monitor
FX30 => 4:2:2 10bit good standard
Osmo Pocket 3 => Dlog M, 1" sensor. I have this in the Mavic 2 Pro drone and its ok not great
Hero12 => Not a perspective I would use for the full group
A6400 => Sorry no nothing about the S-log codec.

Thanks wemrick1! The Mavic 2 Pro drone camera specs indeed look the same - are you sure it's not newer/better?

I'm hoping to dodge the grading issues from a mixed setup - will log footage and LUTs for all cameras help? Perhaps it is useful to save money on some angles so I can invest more in key cameras/lenses? If so, perhaps:

1. 2 MCU cams: 2 better cameras with shallower dof and nice skin tones: BPCC 4K, Sony FX30 or A7SIII, maybe the prosumery A6400 or Panasonic G7 (unless those are really just a class lower in quality)
2. Wide cam: Osmo Pocket 3, since it's less important?
3. Optional interesting CU cams, like keyboardists' hands: iPhone 15 Pro or another Pocket 3 in a GorillaPod or something else easily mountable in strange spots (last time we were duct-taping iPhones around…trying to find something more stable and professional, although I admit that was actually highly unobtrusive!)

Re wireless remote control, Sony makes an app that I believe lets you control one cam…

(Start at 27:38 - the forum corrupted the link)

Thank you again for the very helpful replies.

Here is an example of camera placement

Cam 1 BMPCC 4k full group angle
Cam 2 Ursa Mini Broadcast G2 Close up of drummer/singer angle
Cam 3 BMPCC 4k bass and guitar close up angle
Cam 4 BMPCC 6kp Close up of Keyboardist angle
Cam 5 Canon C200 roving shots
Cam 6 GoPro overhead drum angle
Cam 7 GoPro over shoulder of keyboard angle

Have you considered camcorders?

The advantage being that you have good audio inputs, zoom lens built in and ready to go out of the case.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N ... yes&sts=ps

If you develop some routine with the Tentacles it is not very stressful.
When I do my setup, I simply switch them on, when I plug them in and check if the camera reads the timecode. When all cameras (and sounddevices) are set up, I use the app to sync them (the app is really user friendly!). On the app I see the battery levels as well and in case one tentacle is low: simply plug it into something (usb charger, battery plate of the camera etc) and while you dress for concert it will be recharged enough for the evening.

But as already suggested: add timecode only when it is to hard working without. If there is no time pressure in the edit room and it is all one take (or two) and if you are the one doing all the stuff, you are probably fine doing it manually. Even without clap. You are a musician. You will be able to sync be eye and ear in less than two minutes.

Thanks Johannes, that's all very helpful. For studio sessions we are doing many takes, and in the past, sync took a couple hours and was frustrating. But it's true, it was one less thing to think about during the sessions. I will see if I can do without timecode for a bit longer, and I won't worry about lack of autofocus. (I'd like some shallow depth of field but as Leon Benzakein says, we can set this up at the beginning since we aren't moving around so much.)

Blackmagic Micro => no monitor
FX30 => 4:2:2 10bit good standard
Osmo Pocket 3 => Dlog M, 1" sensor. I have this in the Mavic 2 Pro drone and its ok not great
Hero12 => Not a perspective I would use for the full group
A6400 => Sorry no nothing about the S-log codec.

Thanks wemrick1! The Mavic 2 Pro drone camera specs indeed look the same - are you sure it's not newer/better?

I'm hoping to dodge the grading issues from a mixed setup - will log footage and LUTs for all cameras help? Perhaps it is useful to save money on some angles so I can invest more in key cameras/lenses? If so, perhaps:

1. 2 MCU cams: 2 better cameras with shallower dof and nice skin tones: BPCC 4K, Sony FX30 or A7SIII, maybe the prosumery A6400 or Panasonic G7 (unless those are really just a class lower in quality)
2. Wide cam: Osmo Pocket 3, since it's less important?
3. Optional interesting CU cams, like keyboardists' hands: iPhone 15 Pro or another Pocket 3 in a GorillaPod or something else easily mountable in strange spots (last time we were duct-taping iPhones around…trying to find something more stable and professional, although I admit that was actually highly unobtrusive!)

Re wireless remote control, Sony makes an app that I believe lets you control one cam…

(Start at 27:38 - the forum corrupted the link)

Thank you again for the very helpful replies.

Had to wait until mine came in to answer your question. Got mine today and I still can't really answer your question. Would have to set up a test scenario using both cameras. What I can say is that the 3 is head and shoulders better than the 2. The Dlog M lends to light grading and the resolution and overall quality of the camera is quite good given it's size. Blows my phone and GoPro's away.

Hi all,
Thank you for these great and inspiring ideas, which I spent the last few days exploring and researching.

1. From your practical experience, how stressful is it to charge and setup timecode with something like Tentacle? Would love to avoid the setup complexity, extra gear, and batteries, so perhaps we can just clap. Recording time code into an audio port of Babyface/12Mic is brilliant, thanks.

It's a piece of cake, all you need is a cable to jam sync them to your MixPre-6 II. You jam them, plug them into the camera, and then you can forget about them for over a day (assuming they are fully charged). It doesn't matter if you start/stop recording or turn the camera off, as long as they are on and plugged into the camera timecode will be baked into the footage. The only thing you need the app for, is monitoring battery life (if you want to).

I have Tentacle E's (they have an onboard mic, so you get scratch/reference audio on one channel). They come with a little laminated index card with this on them.
https://tentaclesync.com/files/download ... _Guide.pdf

5. Cameras: Would lack of autofocus on BM cameras be an issue? Cameras I considered:

Imo, Auto focus is bad for the type of work you will be doing. Even if it worked perfectly every time (it doesn't), it always switches focus to fast, and can be jarring to watch. If you are recording an animated individual it can be really bad.

It's a piece of cake...

Nothing that Larry is talking about is a piece of cake. That's why his Gearspace thread, which is just about trying to come up with a realistic plan for audio, currently runs 147 posts. He started the thread in August and there's still no realistic plan for recording audio. A look at the thread will be helpful to anyone who wants to understand what he has in mind and what the constraints are: https://gearspace.com/board/studio-stag ... order.html

It's a piece of cake...

Nothing that Larry is talking about is a piece of cake. That's why his Gearspace thread, which is just about trying to come up with a realistic plan for audio, currently runs 147 posts. He started the thread in August and there's still no realistic plan. A look at that thread will be helpful to anyone who wants to understand what he has in mind and what the constraints are: https://gearspace.com/board/studio-stag ... order.html

That thread is for a completely different use case. You are personally attacking me on two forums at once. Please do not reply to me on any forum unless you have something constructive to add.

That thread is for a completely different use case. You are personally attacking me on two forums at once. Please do not reply to me on any forum unless you have something constructive to add.

This is attacking you? From 9 posts up, which also says things about your Gearspace thread to which you took no exception:

"I'd just like to suggest that you figure out what your resources are, and what the expected workflow and product are, before worrying about film gear."

Anyway, I have nothing more to add.

It's a piece of cake...

Nothing that Larry is talking about is a piece of cake.

I was responding to a very specific question, the one I quoted..........



Everything related to audio/video is a tradeoff, Quallity, features, cost, size, connectivity, complexity, & redundacy. Each person has to figure out what's the right balance for them.

For example, a super tiny system, that is completely wireless, and supports timecode is doable.

Video:

• gopros (the horror)
• a Tentacle Sync or other small generator for each gopro.
• usb power pack to power the gopro all day.

Audio:

• mics with 3.5mm outputs
• Tentacle sync Track E (32-bit recorder with timecode support) for each mic
• a power pack of some type, to power the mic if it needs it

Pros:

• everything will sync via timecode
• tiny setup
• everything can be monitored and controlled remotely via two apps

Cons:

• The Tentacle sync Track E can only record at 48 khz
• No storage redundancy in the cameras or recorders as they only support one card each
• the gopros will struggle in less than ideal lighting conditions
• The 3.5mm mic requirement limits the types of mics that can be used

It's all about the tradeoffs!

I owned 4 Micro Studios but switched to Panasonic BGH1s. The Lumix Tether App allows multicam control of the cameras and the big bonus is POE+. I have camera control, image, and power on 1 Cat6 line from an inexpensive POE+ switch and a laptop.

The G1 Micro Studio G1 only allowed camera control through the Atem switchers which I didn't care for and there were a couple other awkward workarounds. I may try out the G2, the API means that a control app can be developed or one can use Bitfocus Companion.

If you do go the Atem route, the switcher pushes TC to all the cameras so sync becomes pretty simple. It just becomes a question of aligning the external recording with the sync'd multicam.

I'd agree with what others here say regarding AF. It's going to hurt far more often than it's going to help. Autoexposure on the other hand can be much more helpful. I'd imagine in the OP's use case the lighting isn't very dynamic. In my environment it is and being able to define multiple AE parameters is one of the places the BGH1 excels over the G1.

Good Luck

I'm sorry, but blackmagic cameras aren't suited for a high end recording in a classical auditorium. I've worked with them, and the noise level at the iso required to get a good level is just too much.

Also, being a high end concert, the only camera without operator that I would allow would be the center wide shot. I wouldn't risk it, too many things can go wrong.

It's probably easier to rent broadcast cameras with operators, or operators with sony cinema cameras (the higher ISO with less noise will be more important in your final product that the codec choice).

A few thoughts.

Your audio seems covered ...

Unmanned cams - I would ALWAYS use manual lenses only**. So the lack of AF is no problem.
The advantage of BMD mft cams is exactly the decent depth of field between f4 and f6 - which is usually perfect for the available light in classical music situations at ISO2500-3200. You just need to watch for blown out (white !) paper scores. (Much better to use decades old yellow scores ...)
I NEVER use noise reduction on my P4K cams, not even at 3200 iso. If you expose correctly and color correct correctly it is not needed.

Audio sync with timecode/tentacles etc seems counter to quick setup and portability. Just make sure that all cams have internal audio enabled and sync them (I do it manually !) in Resolve or whatever you use. Continuous takes = only a few syncs needed. This will be literally a couple of minutes, you'll never sync 4-5 cams with timecode in 2 minutes.

An additional issue is takes of 2-3 hours will not remain in sync, even when using identical cams. You will be 1-2 frames off at the end, so you need to resync manually anyway.
You can make life easier by a handclap at the start AND at the end. Maybe in a short break in the middle. Or a Bartok pizz ...

Iphone 15 can be an option, if you want to spend 3-4x 1.3K euro on phones ...
Anything less than a 15 will give mushy moving blocky footage, even with the BMD camera app. I just tested on my Iphone 13 - next to a P4K it is a joke.
I do not know if the 15 is really much better, some say it is when you use the right settings. (???)

If time & budget is limited, I would go for unmanned cams only. PTZ cams I do not have experience with, but I wonder if they are as quick to install (and who will operate them ?).

To make the setup more portable : get some clamps and gadgets to attach cams to bars & objects. Smallrig have a really good ballhead adapter that goes on a mic stand (!) and carries a camera easily. (The comparable K&M ballhead is a toy and a nightmare to adjust properly). If you are in a safe/controlled environment you can avoid buying/carrying bulky camera tripods.

If you go for a couple of cams with MFT lens mount, you own it to yourself to get at least one Kamlan 50mm f1.1 MkII (with the mft lens mount of course). It is only 250 dollar, and is a fantastic portrait lens, fully manual.

** I have had several instances where a cam would be in focus (using a electronic AF lens), and just power cycling the cam (which WILL happen) takes the lens out of focus. That time you will forget to double check focus, and have a 3hour shot all blurry.

I owned 4 Micro Studios but switched to Panasonic BGH1s. The Lumix Tether App allows multicam control of the cameras and the big bonus is POE+. I have camera control, image, and power on 1 Cat6 line from an inexpensive POE+ switch and a laptop.

The G1 Micro Studio G1 only allowed camera control through the Atem switchers which I didn't care for and there were a couple other awkward workarounds. I may try out the G2, the API means that a control app can be developed or one can use Bitfocus Companion.

If you do go the Atem route, the switcher pushes TC to all the cameras so sync becomes pretty simple. It just becomes a question of aligning the external recording with the sync'd multicam.

I'd agree with what others here say regarding AF. It's going to hurt far more often than it's going to help. Autoexposure on the other hand can be much more helpful. I'd imagine in the OP's use case the lighting isn't very dynamic. In my environment it is and being able to define multiple AE parameters is one of the places the BGH1 excels over the G1.

Good Luck

Thanks very much for pushing me toward BGH1. I had no idea this existed, and PoE would greatly simplify setup. Still reluctant to rely on that for times when one camera should ideally be in a mezzanine, but I think this could be a great option. Thanks.

Thank you also to kambor and Yannick Wilcox for your thoughts and help. I have continued researching in the meantime and really appreciate your helpful replies. By the way, the idea for PTZ was for all the performers (including the camera guy, me) to be able to stand/rehearse in position and verify/adjust framing from all angles. I wouldn't be operating it while singing.

I've also been working on learning about lighting, since this seems to be the big weak point of many churches. Is there any lighting that's actually helpful and still fits in a carryon suitcase along with cameras…?

Also, to everyone who suggested hiring people who actually know what they're doing and can operate cameras etc...I 100% agree. This setup, whether I own it or rent it, is just for when we don't have budget to do that.

Still reluctant to rely on that for times when one camera should ideally be in a mezzanine, but I think this could be a great option.

The wide shot from the auditorium/mezzanine will be the least of your worries for sync.

It is great to get you out of trouble in post and to establish the venue but otherwise you should be able to set it and forget it with enough power to run through the event.

Just don't forget to pick it up before you leave.

Still reluctant to rely on that for times when one camera should ideally be in a mezzanine, but I think this could be a great option.

The wide shot from the auditorium/mezzanine will be the least of your worries for sync.

It is great to get you out of trouble in post and to establish the venue but otherwise you should be able to set it and forget it with enough power to run through the event.

Just don't forget to pick it up before you leave.

HA! OK, fair enough. This makes lots of sense. I will see if I can find somewhere in the Bay Area to rent BGH1 and then aim to buy after the first couple of gigs.

Thanks again.

Hello,

Thank you all again for your kind and helpful replies.

I rented and experimented with several options but didn’t manage to make a decision.

Is there a good way I can visualize (see low-light test images from) the tradeoffs of the various options and even budget ranges, without renting each one?

Also, am I correct that LUMIX Tether would let me skip buying monitors for BGH1 and let us performers monitor ourselves while in position, but would require a laptop?

The dream would be if I could monitor and start all cameras from an iPhone app with Bluetooth….

Anyway, currently considering:

iPhone 15
Panasonic BGH1
Panasonic S5
BM Studio
Sony a6400
GoPros, I guess

I imagine I’d mount these on light stands, depending on placement, or else have to find lightweight tripods.

I understand these are drastically different budgets. My budget is flexible and the bigger concern is size (traveling with one carryon for all audio and video equipment, not to mention clothes!) and ease of setup (since I’m performing, every additional connection needed adds a bit of stress. Sometimes we have as little as 2 hours to move into the venue, setup gear, AND rehearse).

The tether app allows monitoring of a single or multiple cams. If you want a confidence monitor for the players you can mirror the laptop output or monitor directly from the cams. Currently I’m using both BGH1s and the micro G2. Probably going to go all G2s but I’m still on the fence, as expected the G2s auto exposure is steppy and hunts.

Good Luck

The dream would be if I could monitor and start all cameras from an iPhone app with Bluetooth….

Anyway, currently considering:

iPhone 15…

If you haven’t already, look into Apple’s May 7th iPad event, especially the announcements of Final Cut for iPad 2 and the Final Cut Camera app. Apple says that these will be released before the start of summer on June 20. I suspect that they’ll be released by the start of this year’s WWDC on June 10th.

Apple’s event video, which is readily available, shows iPad control of up to four iPhones.

See:

Dave Lee’s M4 iPad review at 10:30:

CineD’s video on the M4 iPad event in London, at 3:45 and 8:30:

Re Dave Lee’s reference to Logic Pro, Apple is releasing a new version of Logic for iPad at the same time.

There’s more discussion about this starting at the following post and for several after: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191338&start=450#p1046701

That thread contains a lot of information about iPhone 15 video developments and integration, including Apple’s longer demonstration videos, of which there are now four. I would suggest that you watch the Chinese New Year video, Little Garlic, in particular. The thread also has an informative video about how Little Garlic was made. It’s in Mandarin, but has excellent English subtitles. There’s also an English behind the scenes video, but it’s less informative. Apple gave the Mandarin crew, which is actually based in London, very free access to the set.