Ursa Cine footages

Since the other Ursa thread seems to be mixing a few other topics and the Pyxis has its own footage thread here's one focusing on just the Cine footage. There's been several (3) official footage released so far including the main release footage by John Brawley with a new one by Vance Burberry earlier today. I think they're just on the website and not linked on YouTube/vimeo (?)

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... ne/gallery

Awesome! So far, I think this camera is better than Alexa cameras, at least from a color standpoint. Can't wait until I can rent it.

Awesome! So far, I think this camera is better than Alexa cameras, at least from a color standpoint. Can't wait until I can rent it.

I think people are going to be very surprised at what the Cine is capable of. It's a tremendous achievement from both the production aspect and in terms of post flexibility. It's a true 16 (feels like more stops) of DR versus other claimed ones as well

It’s a nice camera alright but I don’t think it’s an Alexa replacement. However, my personal opinion although I have heard others say the same, Blackmagic should stay in the low to mid range of the sub-10K cameras. That is where they shine. That is what makes them innovative, compelling, and competitive - an industry disrupter for the last 10 years or so. If they change their posture, someone else will enter and take that market from them… and there is a line forming already.

It’s a nice camera alright but I don’t think it’s an Alexa replacement.

How did you come to this conclusion?

I think each of the camera releases have been industry disrupters but in terms of the Ursa Cine, I don't agree that it should be viewed in the low to mid-range. It's a massive leap in terms of technological breakthrough and in terms of value/price. And from my perspective, and I don't want to sound too hyperbolic, but the Ursa Cine is easily in the top of top

I agree with Note. However, Arri still is top dog and there's little denying it. They have a hold on the industry that is tough to shake off. And, should Arri take the Alexa 35 ALEV 4 sensor and do an LF it will be undeniably sought after by the top films/shows. Even an updated Alexa 65 with the ALEV 4 sensor would rule.

But that's not to say what Blackmagic has done with the URSA Cine isn't top tier. Every improvement met with requests I had having worked with Blackmagic, Arri, Red, Sony, and Canon cameras over the last 5-years. There's only a few things missed, and some of those are requests made last year after having started working with LED Volumes.

In many ways the URSA Cine matches the Alexa in terms of features. It's going to be interesting to see comparisons of the Alexa 35 sensor vs the UCine12K sensor. Especially the 17 stops of DR vs the 16 stops. However, let's not forget the Alexa 35 and the ALEV 4 sensor encodes in ARRIRAW a 17-Bit Linear and 13-Bit LOG file. If Blackmagic was to reveal that Gen 6 Color Science and BlackmagicRAW for the UCine12K also does this or even 18-Bit Linear and 14-Bit Log then we'd be seeing a massive canon shot across the bow of Arri.

Well, a lot of footage on the Arri is not shot in ARRIRAW, but in ProRes. ARRIRAW is huge, since they have to respect the Red patent. BRAW is very flexible, since BM found a clever way around that issue.
I doubt that you will see much of a difference in practical grading.

But I suppose the situation will turn out a bit like Avid vs. DR. Those you dare to take the leap may be quite happy, but many will want to stay on the side they consider safe.

In judging who is “on top” or even equal, we all may have different contexts for the comparison. There is one context for camera features and performance and another category for trust and adoption and worldwide support.

I think unquestionably ARRI and Panavision lead the latter category which takes decades to achieve and represents a culture if you will. RED aspired to get there but was not successful across the top tier with the consistency of ARRI and Panavision. Heck ARRI is so successful that they are even stealing the lower tier of indie filmmakers that want to shout with ARRI as they fantasize their work will be top tier too. RED has lost their mojo with that group to ARRI that they once appeared to own.

Note is clearly talking about just the camera and its image strengths as being on top. The Cine line doesn’t have all the other hardware goodies that ARRI has or third-party gear that are regularly associated with ARRI cameras like the sophistication of the ubiquitous Preston Ranger line. But Note may be right about the combination of the Cine cameras with DaVinci Resolve to make a magical image.

So let’s assume Note is right in his context. There is the question of pricing this camera correctly. True the BMD client base usually expects cameras at a maximum of $10,000. And $15,000 isn’t close to that. But it’s a helluva long way from the $60,000-$150,000 you’re going to spend on an ARRI if you are even allowed to outright purchase it as ARRI likes to dominate the rental-only market. So when you look at the context of image quality and price, BMD is clearly on top of the value for money context.

Okay, if I haven’t lost you or upset you, dear reader, then think about this:

Apple once had a Mac Pro that was moderately expensive, but was unable to upgrade as it became known as the Trashcan. So Apple abandoned their space age Jetson’s design and returned to the venerable tower of power whose only Achille’s Heel was arguably the bus that supported data transfer among Apple’s innovative parts. And it was very expensive, up to $56,000 if you wanted 1.5 TB of memory which some people actually needed for weather forecasting etc. But it moved the needle for some more ordinary folks that just wanted to up their power game including me. I spent a lot more on that computer than I ever imagined I would before. And I still like it for what I do even though it’s now approaching a dead end using Intel and AMD in an efficient Apple silicon world.

So about that $15,000. That’s less than I spent on the Mac Pro 2019. The useful life of the camera may be ‘unlimited’ (until it breaks) and will certainly be longer than the life of a Mac Pro 2019 that the used market probably will abandon within the next few years. So $15,000, for top quality images over the longer lifespan of the camera which is going to exceed 10 years, is starting to look like a bargain. Please think about this before you bemoan BMD breaking the $10,000 threshold. If and when I had the money (which I don’t due to present circumstances), I like the Cine LF so much, I’ll want to order one.

If I end up with the Pyxis 2nd generation, that’s fine too, but I’ll always wish my reach had exceeded my grasp which is how an artist or a scientist defines themself. It’s not about the money you make or accumulate, it’s about what you do with it that is your measure.

I think each of the camera releases have been industry disrupters but in terms of the Ursa Cine, I don't agree that it should be viewed in the low to mid-range. It's a massive leap in terms of technological breakthrough and in terms of value/price. And from my perspective, and I don't want to sound too hyperbolic, but the Ursa Cine is easily in the top of top

I agree on this one.
But there is one aspect still troubling me and that is if this camera develops an issue after warranty - how will BMD handle this? From ARRI (or also Canon/Sony) you get top notch service and they do offer a long service/repair period. Up to now you are out of luck if your BMD camera breaks after a few years and I keep hearing from vendors - when they complain to BMD about this service situation - that they get answered why they are complaining - the cameras are so cheap anyway...
A PCC4k - yeah ok. A PCC6k Pro - maybe. An UMP G2 - not really. An UC12k - absolutely not.

And over here in Europe they still have their service center in England. That became a nightmare after Brexit.

I can't convince myself to invest into the Ursa Cine - I am tempted to - but the above points keep me from buying one.

I think each of the camera releases have been industry disrupters but in terms of the Ursa Cine, I don't agree that it should be viewed in the low to mid-range. It's a massive leap in terms of technological breakthrough and in terms of value/price. And from my perspective, and I don't want to sound too hyperbolic, but the Ursa Cine is easily in the top of top

I agree on this one.
But there is one aspect still troubling me and that is if this camera develops an issue after warranty - how will BMD handle this? From ARRI (or also Canon/Sony) you get top notch service and they do offer a long service/repair period. Up to now you are out of luck if your BMD camera breaks after a few years and I keep hearing from vendors - when they complain to BMD about this service situation - that they get answered why they are complaining - the cameras are so cheap anyway...
A PCC4k - yeah ok. A PCC6k Pro - maybe. An UMP G2 - not really. An UC12k - absolutely not.

And over here in Europe they still have their service center in England. That became a nightmare after Brexit.

I can't convince myself to invest into the Ursa Cine - I am tempted to - but the above points keep me from buying one.

I share the same sentiments as Robert and hence why I don’t think it’s a good idea, at least for me, to buy BM Cameras above the 6-7K price points. Anything below that, like the PC 4K-UMP G2, I’m game in owning own. I would rent the UC12K probably if I really needed to, but at that juncture I might just rent an ARRI which will have big production blessings in such project cases. On indie films, anything UMP G2 or lower is doable and still a game on camera. I’m speaking on behalf of myself as my niche is the indie film market. Obviously, big dollar productions will be a different market so it makes sense to go with the UC12K, but again, if you’re renting and the rental cost difference between the UC and ARRI is within the production budget, why wouldn’t you just go with the ARRI? That’s my thinking.

… there is one aspect still troubling me and that is if this camera develops an issue after warranty - how will BMD handle this? ...

And over here in Europe they still have their service center in England. That became a nightmare after Brexit.

I can't convince myself to invest into the Ursa Cine - I am tempted to - but the above points keep me from buying one.

I suppose some of the Brexit nightmare might be addressed by the new Prime Minister of France since he was the EU chief negotiator for Brexit.

The issue of warranty remains a concern. One would think a $15,000 camera would have a 3 year warranty, not a one year. In the EU and Australia, I thought companies had to provide at lease a 2 year warranty but I’m not sure; you would know.

The culture that has evolved with the superb support from ARRI is extremely important to many high-end productions. I don’t see BMD adopting that standard practice unless the camera cost is double.

The Cine 17K might be a camera that costs $30,000 or more and does address your issues.

... Obviously, big dollar productions will be a different market so it makes sense to go with the UC12K, but again, if you’re renting and the rental cost difference between the UC and ARRI is within the production budget, why wouldn’t you just go with the ARRI? That’s my thinking.

Something Grant must wrestle with. If BMD ups their game in Quality Control, the cameras may be to be more reliable. Perhaps at $15,000 there is money in the budget for testing each camera thoroughly before it is shipped to customers. Still issues can happen and that helps the rental option, but won’t prevent a sudden rental failure that could be very expensive on set. There’s merit it renting two BMD cameras so you have redundancy. I’d do that if I was ever in the position to rent an ARRI anyway.

I’m a bit surprised no one commented on what really stands out in the clips Note linked, the 9k grain footage. It’s, for the lack of a better word …Pure Jazz!

Contrary to the grain you will find on the Cmos sensors, it’s a live. Where the grain on Cmos sensors looks like it is projected on the footage, with the 12K it is as if the grain lives on the individual parts of the footage. Almost as if each part has it’s own partical generator ( due to the way BRAW handles in an out of focus?)
Even without the Disney inspired talent acting out on he seagulls, the 9 K footage would have looked as organic as can be! I don’t think it will get any better than that and no I do not think ARRI will be able to match that with its textures, as I suspect it is the signature of the way the sensor works.
For that reason alone the 12 K might get it’s own fanclub.

ferris wheel is 9k 7680x6408
soap bubbles is 12K 12288x5112 not 7680x6408

... Obviously, big dollar productions will be a different market so it makes sense to go with the UC12K, but again, if you’re renting and the rental cost difference between the UC and ARRI is within the production budget, why wouldn’t you just go with the ARRI? That’s my thinking.

Something Grant must wrestle with. If BMD ups their game in Quality Control, the cameras may be to be more reliable. Perhaps at $15,000 there is money in the budget for testing each camera thoroughly before it is shipped to customers. Still issues can happen and that helps the rental option, but won’t prevent a sudden rental failure that could be very expensive on set. There’s merit it renting two BMD cameras so you have redundancy. I’d do that if I was ever in the position to rent an ARRI anyway.

Main issue is that Arri is battle tested, so is RED and Sony. There is also a perception of quality with those at the Arri level in regards to pricing.

$15,000 is in FX9 range. The Sony Burano is $25,000. If BM decided to price the Ursa Cine at $75,000 I think it would get even more interest from people who are in the high end cinema world. The question will come up, "Why is this thing $75,000?"; then they'll compare it directly to the Arri.

Otherwise, it can just get lost in the iPhone vs Arri circus that exists on YouTube (which it prob will anyway). I've been watching Bad Monkey and loving the 12k episodes just as much as the Alexa LF episodes. However, even though the $6,000 camera is standing up with the $100,000+ camera, I feel there is much more at stake. What if everyone says wow only $6,000. Ditch all the Arri's... Is 100 year old Arri going to allow Blackmagic to put them out of business? No. I don't think anybody is debating that. The target, if at all, should be RED, not Arri.

… there is one aspect still troubling me and that is if this camera develops an issue after warranty - how will BMD handle this? ...

And over here in Europe they still have their service center in England. That became a nightmare after Brexit.

I can't convince myself to invest into the Ursa Cine - I am tempted to - but the above points keep me from buying one.

I suppose some of the Brexit nightmare might be addressed by the new Prime Minister of France since he was the EU chief negotiator for Brexit.

He can’t address that. England got out of the common market. They would have to enter the common market again by getting back into the EU.

Agreed with the above points. If there is no option for support out of warranty, I would never invest over 5-6k.

Any idea when the Ursa Cine 12K will be available for rent?

This is nearly 3 minutes of original footage. I missed this...