BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

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Joe Shapiro

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BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 1:00 am

Hi Folks
I just did a shoot for a short film. I was directing but not the camera tech and the camera wasn't set up by me. The person had a lot of media on their cfexpress card that they didn't want to delete - I know, not a good way to work.

Anyway, we shot til we filled up the card, copied the takes off, deleted them and continued. The result was that the clip numbers - Cxxx - were reused after each offload. I'm hoping this isn't intentional. I'm going to rename everything to get the Cxxx numbers to all be consecutive.

I'm pretty sure he's running whatever firmware was already on the camera when he bought it during the BMCC6K sale so perhaps this issue has already been addressed in an update or the beta.
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Pete Tomkies

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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 10:19 am

If you format the card in the camera, it will increment the roll number prefix by 1. So A04 becomes A05 etc. Personally, I always reformat in-camera before reusing a card rather than deleting files externally.

BRAW files can be a little fussy so I like to give them a clean, Blackmagic-approved card to fill.

You can also go into the menus to change the prefix manually if you want.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 12:25 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:Hi Folks
I just did a shoot for a short film. I was directing but not the camera tech and the camera wasn't set up by me. The person had a lot of media on their cfexpress card that they didn't want to delete - I know, not a good way to work.

Anyway, we shot til we filled up the card, copied the takes off, deleted them and continued...


Best practice is recording to a freshly formatted card. If an operator had a bad take, the director may authorize deleting that take then reshoot that shot. But that’s quite different than having a card with many retained files scattered around the card while you add new clips. Seriously reconsider this practice.
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Joe Shapiro

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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 5:41 pm

I understand what best practices are.
As I said in the post, the camera owner didn’t want to format the card and lose what he had on it.

Are you saying that it’s fine that the camera reuses numbers after takes are deleted? I don’t think this is fine and think it’s unlikely that that’s the intended behavior.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 5:43 pm

Pete Tomkies wrote:If you format the card in the camera, it will increment the roll number prefix by 1. So A04 becomes A05 etc. Personally, I always reformat in-camera before reusing a card rather than deleting files externally.

BRAW files can be a little fussy so I like to give them a clean, Blackmagic-approved card to fill.

You can also go into the menus to change the prefix manually if you want.
Doesn’t sound like you understood my post.
I’m not talking about the reel number I’m talking about the clip number. And as I said, I’m not the camera owner and he wanted to preserve what was on the card. Are you saying that the camera shouldn’t work properly in this situation?
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BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 5:58 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:I understand what best practices are… the camera owner didn’t want to format the card and lose what he had on it.


Why would the camera operator not copy the good clips that were on the card previously to offline storage and come to the set with recently formatted cards? I don’t know the volume of data that he wanted saved before you began shooting, but the day should have started with clean cards and new Reel numbers which would then have proper clip values.

I may have misunderstood when the previous good takes were recorded. As director, you are in charge and responsible for the shoot, so I would say it’s appropriate for you to request the camera operator follow best practices.

Are you saying that it’s fine that the camera reuses numbers after takes are deleted? I don’t think this is fine and think it’s unlikely that that’s the intended behavior.


I don’t know if the camera has any way to remember previously used clip numbers of deleted clips on a Reel. Sure I agree that would be good if that was the way it worked if the card hadn’t been ejected from the camera.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostFri Oct 11, 2024 8:44 pm

rick.lang wrote:I don’t know if the camera has any way to remember previously used clip numbers of deleted clips on a Reel


According to the manual, or at least my interpretation, the metadata of the next recorded clip is based on the metadata of the prior clip. For the camera to know that clips had been deleted there'd need to be some external CSV/XML file that would log deleted clips and increment accordingly.

Joe Shapiro wrote:Are you saying that the camera shouldn’t work properly in this situation?


I don't now that proper function and your expectation are in accord. It could just as easily be said that if clips 6-10 were deleted then the cam should resume at 6 rather than 11. I'd argue the cam's behavior is likely preferred by most.

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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 1:52 am

It would actually be preferable to you for the camera to reuse numbers that had become available because the files had been removed? And you think that would be what most would prefer?

I’m surprised that that’s your opinion but I really don’t think that’s what most people would either expect or prefer.

I don’t think BMD specifies what should happen in this case but I really do expect this isn’t what they had in mind.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 5:06 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:It would actually be preferable to you for the camera to reuse numbers that had become available because the files had been removed? And you think that would be what most would prefer?


Within the context of a traditional workflow, absolutely.

I'm only going to use clip deletion to delete double taps, egregiously bad takes, or those moments where the AD calls camera then the director's 30 second last minute note turns into a 5 minute discussion. I understand the ask in the context of your outlier workflow, in my workflow I don't want missing clip numbers when I'm copying data, it would make me think that files weren't transferred.

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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 5:10 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:It would actually be preferable to you for the camera to reuse numbers that had become available because the files had been removed? And you think that would be what most would prefer?

I’m surprised that that’s your opinion but I really don’t think that’s what most people would either expect or prefer.

I don’t think BMD specifies what should happen in this case but I really do expect this isn’t what they had in mind.


If you have deleted media from that card and are re-using it, it should have an incremented roll number surely (as it's effectively a new card), otherwise you will have the potential for what is happening to you - multiple takes with the same numbers with the same roll number?

Once you've taken the card out of the camera and done something to it - it shouldn't be treated as the same 'roll'?
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 8:55 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
Joe Shapiro wrote:It would actually be preferable to you for the camera to reuse numbers that had become available because the files had been removed? And you think that would be what most would prefer?


Within the context of a traditional workflow, absolutely.

I'm only going to use clip deletion to delete double taps, egregiously bad takes, or those moments where the AD calls camera then the director's 30 second last minute note turns into a 5 minute discussion. I understand the ask in the context of your outlier workflow, in my workflow I don't want missing clip numbers when I'm copying data, it would make me think that files weren't transferred.

Good Luck

So, in the scheme you'd prefer, this might happen:
shoot A and B:
A_001
Bmistake_002
B_003

oops... delete errant take Bmistake_002.
shoot C:
C_002

So now you have these takes:
A_001
B_003
C_002

I AGREE with you that it's not good practice to delete errant takes unless they're deleted immediately.
That said, I'd far prefer to see
A_001
B_003
C_004

than have take C, which was shot AFTER take B, have an earlier clip number.


If you say "just don't do that" then understand that I'm talking about a case where someone DOES do that and suggesting that the current behavior is less desirable in that case than the one I'm suggesting - and that I suspect most other cameras would not behave in this way.

PS What does "Good Luck" mean to you here? It sounds to me like a diss.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 10:21 pm

It’s not a diss; it’s Howard’s ‘signature’ on all his posts. Howard is always respectful in his posts.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSat Oct 12, 2024 11:55 pm

Joe Shapiro wrote:PS What does "Good Luck" mean to you here? It sounds to me like a diss.


Why? Because we don't agree? I can assure you it's not a diss, quite the opposite, even if we don't agree I wish you the best on your journey.

Good Luck
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSun Oct 13, 2024 3:17 am

Just catching this. I’d say the Camera Op/Owner didn’t show up properly prepared. He should have had his media cards dumped so you could format the cards and start fresh. Then each new card would have an increase in reel number. The way it sounds like he did things screwed up this procedure.

It’s a very unprofessional way of doing things. That’s plain and simple how I’m calling out this person.

What happened was every time you copied the files off the card and deleted them to make room and started recording on the card again it picked up from the last clip number of his media files he refused to delete. Now the good news is that the unique file name should still have an increased date/time part that makes it so despite the clip numbers being the same at least the file name is still unique.

Still it sounds like an unprofessional mode of working. Either he doesn’t have enough media cards, or he didn’t have hard drive space to drop his previously recorded media. Either way, he should have shown up with the ability to format the cards to start fresh with the media for the day. That is professional etiquette.

Sorry to be so blunt. But I would never hire this person again. That’s a sign to me that he doesn’t know what he is doing or proper workflow. He would definitely be fired on larger productions.


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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSun Oct 13, 2024 3:59 am

I agree with you all - as I’ve said repeatedly - that this isn’t a workflow I desired or would repeat in the future.

But I’m not reporting a set protocol failure. Nor am I asking for feedback on someone else’s behavior - or mine.

I’m just trying to report what I believe to be a bug. Isn’t it OK to report a bug even if set protocol wasn’t ideal?

It’s OK to tell me you think it should work the way it does - but if so please provide a case where the current behavior is better than what I contend to be preferable.

As far as the camera owner who you all are complaining about - this was a volunteer shoot and said person is a freshly graduated film student. We’re talking about a $1500 camera here. Less than many mirrorless prosumer cameras. Most owners aren’t working DPs so I think it’s very unreasonable to hold them to such a standard.

And I think the camera should work well even when proper set protocols aren’t followed.

PS glad to hear that Howard wasn’t being snarky and I apologize for asking if that might be the case.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSun Oct 13, 2024 4:44 am

Joe Shapiro wrote:I’m just trying to report what I believe to be a bug. Isn’t it OK to report a bug even if set protocol wasn’t ideal?


So the camera reads the last clip and counts up one interger. You would prefer it if the camera kept an internal catalogue of clip numbers and counted up blindly.

It kind of doesn't matter either way, it's not a bug in so much as just how it works, it's entirely predictable (unlike many bugs) and you will just need to work with it.

Offloading select clips then deleting said clips and reusing the card without formatting is a reckless workflow that shouldn't be encouraged. I kinda feel that's a strong enough argument for the status quo.
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Re: BMCC6K reused clip numbers after we offloaded media

PostSun Oct 13, 2024 5:32 am

If it works as you say then yes it's fine. For some reason I was under the impression that it would fill gaps that opened up rather than just going up one from the highest numbered take currently on the card. But now I'm not sure why I thought that and I don't have the camera to check if it's so.

IE if deleting one take in the middle of a sequence of takes doesn't result in the number in the middle of the sequence being reused then I'm mistaken and things are working as even I would expect. If it does reuse that number then I think that's not a good thing.

In the end BMD will do what it will do. Enough said by me.
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