Bringing internal NDs into the Pyxis body

After Blackmagic coming out with yet another really impressive announcement, managing to somehow fit the 12K sensor into the Pyxis body and even figuring out AF on top, there was something that had to give. That ended up being internal NDs in the Pyxis body (which looking at it might not be physically possibly really).

We know there is a few L-Mount PL Adapters that incorporate slide in or Vario NDs, but those all have the limitation of not having a CLEAR setting with no ND. The only solution I found so far is Kippertie's Revolva adapter - however that is not currently available in L-Mount, only Sony E-Mount.

I also found that Krzysztof from C7 actually makes an E-Mount for the Pyxis. As in unscrewing your non-interchangeable mount, disconnecting the ribbon connector and screwing on your new E-Mount. Totally non-electronic of course, but reminding me of that Wooden PL mod for the Pocket 6K that I still love on my 6K Pro.

Still that seems like an expensive undertaking at 1700 bucks all said and done. I'm thinking there has to be a better way to add NDs to this camera. Kippertie also manufactures the Revolva Mount for RED and Freefly cameras, so I've reached out to them to see if they are considering making a Pyxis mount version. This might reduce price a bit (not requiring the C7 mount) and also increase clearance on the adapter and widen the amount of PL-lenses compatible.

Anyone here have any other ideas how to bring fast, usable NDs including a clear setting to the Pyxis? Its really the only thing preventing this thing from being a dream doc camera, now that it even has pre-recording coming.

I truly think that the only real solution is giving internal ND only to the PL version or the EF version of the cameras. And, the body size will increase a little to accommodate it. This is why in another thread I suggested revisiting the URSA Mini concept. Updating the URSA Mini with some features from UCine, but keeping core concept of OG URSA Mini. Do the 4" Flip Out screen from UMP, and go with either V or Gold Mount for batteries. This would be slightly larger than the PYXIS, but it would accommodate what we need for the internal ND to happen. It wouldn't have to be as big as the UMP or the original URSA Mini as it could be shorter by removing some of the external buttons.

That may be a future solution, but in the meantime, there are many adapters available for PL lenses and the L-mount version of the camera which include small drop-in ND filters to avoid the use of a matte box or screw-on filters. The Poco also has a clear filter included. These might be worth investigating until internal filters arrive in another body:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1775445-REG

@Tim - from this release I feel that Blackmagic is invested in the Pyxis body (and it also complain why it was comparitively "chunky" for the 6K sensor). I also believe there is no way to fit an ND in that body, so I am considering ways of adding one as an aftermarket solution

@Rick - appreciate the suggesting, I am aware of the existing drop in filters that are definitely a plus over a matte box or screw-on, however that still means fiddling with a piece of glass in my hand rather than pushing a button or a wheel, which is why the Kippertie solution is so elegant. I am surprised no one else has taken on that idea so far

One solution I'm considering is the upcoming eND for the Tilta Mirage Pro matte box. Given that I currently rig my BMPCC6K Pro with some Tilta Nano II motors and a control handle anyway, it doesn't feel like the worst solution - other than removing the option to have a very stripped down setup that retains ND filters, in case I need it.

The only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger is the total cost of transitioning from my current rig to the Pyxis 12K one without losing anything in the process: camera body, cage, Mirage Pro with eND, an L-mount lens (Laowa Ranger?), probably Nucleus M2 (although not immediately)... It's looking like a five figure upgrade that I'll likely have to spread out over time.

… the Kippertie solution is so elegant. I am surprised no one else has taken on that idea so far

Paul, does Kippertie have an existing solution that applies to any camera mount that BMD supports or is this currently just applicable to E-mount or RF-mount?

@Bartek: does the eND feature a clear setting, i.e. no ND? All the electronic NDs I have come across as behind the lens adapter solutions always had a minimum ND setting built in, that you then had to mechanically swap for a clear filter if no ND was needed.

@Rick - no currrent Revolva L-PL exists, although Kippertie has indicated that there has been a lot of interested and that they are likely building one, but with no clear timeline. For now, the only existing solution would be to buy the C7 Pyxis E-Mount and the the Revolva E-PL adapter, which is a lot of money and also voids all the electronic functions on the L-mount, a step I am not quite ready to take just yet

Thanks, Paul.

... It's looking like a five figure upgrade that I'll likely have to spread out over time.

I hear you, Bartek. Going to the full-frame Cine12K or any Pyxis or even the BMCC6K can be a Steve Jobs “bag of hurt” to complete. I too can’t do “everything everywhere all at once” as it might be three years to make the Pyxis 12K transition including some lenses, gear, and infrastructure of my edit suite that may need an upgrade.

From what I’ve read, the L mount doesn’t leave a lot of clearance for filters when adapting compared to all the other mirrorless mounts, which is why there’s not a lot of options out there. It’s not necessarily impossible, but more difficult.

@Bartek: does the eND feature a clear setting, i.e. no ND? All the electronic NDs I have come across as behind the lens adapter solutions always had a minimum ND setting built in, that you then had to mechanically swap for a clear filter if no ND was needed.

I'm not sure, there isn't a ton of information about it out there yet, as far as I can tell.

Thinking a bit more about Grant's announcement video yesterday, I'm quite skeptical that a variant of Pyxis with internal ND will ever appear. If BMD end up push AF hard and it's designed specifically for L-mount lenses, I imagine the EF and PL variants (which, unlike L, should have enough room for ND) won't be getting any special treatment. PL users won't care about ND as much (a lot of them using workflows where external ND is the norm anyway), and EF users won't matter much. That is pure speculation, though.

Cined writes:

the Tilta Mirage Pro comes with an electronic VND filter that is powered via USB-C and can go from 0.3 to 1.5, equivalent to six stops

So seems like while this is an impressive range it doesn't support a clear setting unfortunately. I think this is something by design for all electronic ND filters that I am aware of.


Agreed regarding the low possibility of internal NDs coming to the Pyxis body in the future, which is why I am exploring alternative ways of bringing an almost-internal ND to this incredibly capable camera. Hoping Kippertie or someone will come out with a solution as this camera I am sure will sell quite well.

Cined writes:

the Tilta Mirage Pro comes with an electronic VND filter that is powered via USB-C and can go from 0.3 to 1.5, equivalent to six stops

So seems like while this is an impressive range it doesn't support a clear setting unfortunately. I think this is something by design for all electronic ND filters that I am aware of.


Agreed regarding the low possibility of internal NDs coming to the Pyxis body in the future, which is why I am exploring alternative ways of bringing an almost-internal ND to this incredibly capable camera. Hoping Kippertie or someone will come out with a solution as this camera I am sure will sell quite well.

Based on this video it appears that there will be two different variable ND's compatible with the Mirage Pro - a 7 stop included one, and a separate 5 stop one.

But who knows what's true until it's actually released - I've found Tilta's materials (e.g. the actual product pages) to be misleading on more than one occasion.

A Kippertie-like solution would definitely be my preference at this point. Especially if it would still allow the new autofocus to work. But I'd take a solid ND adapter over autofocus any day if I have to pick just one.

Haha yeah what is it with Tilta and their product documentation? I mean they have been providing solid products for years but parts of their website still look straight out of some Ebay seller page, completely unreadable..

I think the Kippertie Revolva for L-Mount will come. The question is when and at what price point. If they manage to shave off a bit of their current pricing I think they would be quite attractive for a lot of Blackmagic users. Perhaps the way to do that would be not an L-Mount adapter but a Pyxis camera mount like C7 has done, except with Kippertie including their ND-technology.

Kippertie has confirmed to me that they are actively working on a PL-L Mount version at the same price point of their other Revolva adapters (900 GBP for the adapter, 300 GBP for the filter pack). While certainly quite pricy, this adds internal ND functionality with a clear setting that no other filter-adapter on the market will currently provide.

Paul, so I should order the L-mount version of the Pyxis 12K knowing that the adapter will handle my PL-mount lenses and make changing ND filters less of a hassle. I should look into that.

Kippertie has confirmed to me that they are actively working on a PL-L Mount version at the same price point of their other Revolva adapters (900 GBP for the adapter, 300 GBP for the filter pack). While certainly quite pricy, this adds internal ND functionality with a clear setting that no other filter-adapter on the market will currently provide.

Fantastic news! It definitely also makes me even more convinced to go with Laowa Rangers as my news lenses, given the interchangeable mount (meaning that I could start with EF on my current P6K Pro and switch to PL further down the line).

Kippertie is definitely the way to go for "internal" NDs once their L mount is finished but if you want "internal" VNDs I would go with breakthroughs. I find them to be significantly better both in ND quality and mount build quality than the cheaper options, especially the Meike & Mofage.

Have you compared the maximum ND for the VND you like with what Kippertie will likely offer in their Revolva?

Have you compared the maximum ND for the VND you like with what Kippertie will likely offer in their Revolva?

no, I no longer have the Breakthroughs, they were just a means to an end but I was pleasantly surprised by them. The only testing I did was on my VRaptor w/the Breakthrough vs Meike vs Mofage because the Revolvas were on a 10-12week backorder at the time. I doubt I have that footage any longer to compare but I can check the hard drives over the weekend to see whats there.

Have revolvas on all my cameras now.

Thanks, but no worries if you can’t do that.

I think I’ll make a video discussing my thoughts and desires for a box camera with internal ND from Blackmagic. But it will be more in line with an URSA Mini and PYXIS crossed together.


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For me the biggest reason to not invest in an ”internal vnd” adapter is the inability to control the polarising effect when using a vnd. Screw on filters are better in that regard since you can at least rotate the whole filter to adjust the pola effect on the skin etc.
Of course you can use the regular slide in nds but then you’re back to the same principle as switching filters in a mattebox so not really a solution except for smaller size and budget (although the adapter itself is not cheap at all compared to some decent matte boxes).

Hoping Kippertie comes up with the l mount revolva soon!

@Stefan I absolutely agree. Also the fact that none of these VNDs have a clear setting, so if you're switching quickly between inside or outside or only need a little bit of ND they become quite inflexible.

@Tim as much as I would like the Pyxis to get internal NDs, I think at the current price point, it is one of the few remaining differentiating features (besides RS and FPS of course) between it and the Ursa12K Cine, so I'm not sure if Blackmagic will ever bring that feature to the Pyxis, also considering how conservative they have been with body design in the past and how comitted they have been to L-Mount, which makes internal NDs much harder than PL or EF mounts.

Have revolvas on all my cameras now.

Whats your experience with it? What kind of cartridges are you using? I find it a bit strange that they are offering ND6, ND12 and then ND21 instead of ND18, so I'm considering requesting a custom cartridge. Do you ever change cartridges as well or is it pretty much leave and forget?

Have revolvas on all my cameras now.

Whats your experience with it? What kind of cartridges are you using? I find it a bit strange that they are offering ND6, ND12 and then ND21 instead of ND18, so I'm considering requesting a custom cartridge. Do you ever change cartridges as well or is it pretty much leave and forget?

I love them, been using them for years. I mostly use the A cartridge which is clear 0.3, 0.6 and 0.9 since I rarely ever shoot wide open, very rarely even dip below a T4 but I have all 3 of their ND cartridges for safety purposes and just recently got their diffusion cartridge (haven't used it yet). If you need the 1.8 the B cartridge has it. I believe its 1.2/1.5/1.8/2.1 with the S cart being clear 0.6/1.2/2.1

Dumb question: Can you shoot without any cartridge in the Revolva, i.e. is it light tight without a cartidge?

Rick I actually posed the same question to Kippertie support but have yet to receive a response. Not just light leaks but was also wondering about back focus adjustment when there is no glass between the lens and the sensor anymore.

Dumb question: Can you shoot without any cartridge in the Revolva, i.e. is it light tight without a cartidge?

no, your back focus will be way off + light leaks

That’s fine; they have the S-cartridge that includes the clear option. I like the flexibility with adding the A-cartridge as well.

That’s fine; they have the S-cartridge that includes the clear option. I like the flexibility with adding the A-cartridge as well.

i got all 3 for safety but A & S would be fine. If you live in a colder weather environment, get the geared edges for ease of use.

might not be an issue but the only complaint I ever had was when working with my Gemini and the Skin Tone OLPF there was some weird shifting in the S & B carts @ 1.5 and over. Doesn't happen with the raptorx or komodox only the Gemini and really only the Skintone OLPF. The standard OLPF was perfect throughout the range. I even tested it with the Lowlight OLPF which is a no-no on the Gemini and it worked fine up until 2.1 and it then had the weird shifting.

Not sure if it would be something to look for with the Pyxis/Cine12k OLPF

… If you live in a colder weather environment, get the geared edges for ease of use…

Not sure if it would be something to look for with the Pyxis/Cine12k OLPF

Good point for me to be cautious with a Kippertie purchase until there’s some history of people using the cartridges with the Cine 12K or Pyxis 12K that share that new OLPF. Thanks for the tip.

So is the consensus still the same that if we are looking for a 3rd party behind the lens solution that the L mount is the only way to go? I have the L mount on order at the "old" pricing. Most of my lenses are both PL and EF interchangeable.

I wanted to have the steadiness of a native PL camera mount as all
my lenses are PL. But now I’m thinking I can steady a heavy PL lens via lens support on rails and go with the L-mount which can use a friendly PL to L-mount adapter; friends with benefits!

I truly think that the only real solution is giving internal ND only to the PL version or the EF version of the cameras. And, the body size will increase a little to accommodate it. This is why in another thread I suggested revisiting the URSA Mini concept. Updating the URSA Mini with some features from UCine, but keeping core concept of OG URSA Mini. Do the 4" Flip Out screen from UMP, and go with either V or Gold Mount for batteries. This would be slightly larger than the PYXIS, but it would accommodate what we need for the internal ND to happen. It wouldn't have to be as big as the UMP or the original URSA Mini as it could be shorter by removing some of the external buttons.

Hey Tim,
Just my 2cts, if you look at the competition, you have Sony that managed to have eNd behind the mirrorless mount, but even more so is DJI with their Ronin 4d.

Ronin 4d small head features 9 stops of hard nd starting a .3 with their own mounts allowing them to have both L or E mount.

That something that Blackmagic should definitely consider.
L Mount is not that democratised, and the big contender to Sony global market share is gonna be the camera manufacturer that can attract sony owner operator to shoot on their camera. Meaning a manufacturer than can get them to use their Sony glass.

I truly think that a Pyxis Pro should have a blackmagic mount, hard ND (more cinema type than eNd in my opinion as they allow the use of polarizer not like the Sony eND), a Blackmagic L Mount adapter and let other manufacturer (like megadapt) do the rest of e-mount while giving them enough data to and help to assure a great functionality.

What I am waiting for is for someone to make a PL mount replacement for the Pyxis like Wooden Camera's 6k Pro PL mount which is not an adapter but a direct replacement. They could then include an electronic VND filter since there is plenty of room in the PL mount for that and they should have all the electronics needed in the mount. Since PL lenses don't support Iris control, they could repurpose the dial in Iris mode on the Pyxis to control the VND.

While I would love for Blackmagic to offer a 1st party internalND, the issue I see is they want to offer multiple mounts for the Pyxis models, and from a product perspective, this would almost be another camera with different marketing and all to make it a PL mount only internalND. The 12k Pyxis PL mount with OEM built-in eVND would cost as much as the Ursa Cine 12k body and might even self-cannibalize sales.

The issue with the PYXIS is that it suffers from an identity crisis.


Is it a film camera or is it a camcorder with changeable lenses?

With the new handle with EVF and grip with zoom control, it resembles a video camera and with that one would expect historically, built-in ND filters.

However, BMD markets it as an "Advanced Digital Film Camera" and historically film cameras do not have built-in ND filters.

Do the BMD studio cameras have built in ND's?

It would appear that Studio Camera 6K Pro does have ND filters but not the other Studio cameras. Hmmmmmmm, well that blows a hole in my theory.

Another vote for Internal ND's.

Most of my shooting is on small to tiny productions. Somewhere between a one to three team doing everything not just camera. Often is just me. That said I'm a much, much better shooter with camera's with Internal ND's. On the occasion when I'm on a larger job which affords a camera team changing ND's is easy as one of us has them qued up waiting in the wings for quick and smooth changes if and when needed. But when it's just me that takes a lifetime and often the moment is gone.

I know that Kristian Lam, John Brawley, and Captain Hook pay a lot of attention to this forum. I also know that they've got our backs working to make us better at what we do with the tools we use. I cannot imagine that they have not gone over and over this. I'm sure if and when it's possible they'll make it happen especially if they see the need.

For me I'd love to get my hands on a Pyxis 12K with Internal ND's. Actually I'd like three of them since we often shoot multi cam and you always need backup bodies.

Marshall I totally feel you - I am very much in the same boat. However I don't believe that Blackmagic will bring internal NDs to the Pyxis soon - for two reasons. Its one major differentiation factor to the Ursa Cine (besides the faster framerates/rolling shutter) and for Blackmagic the Pyxis is an L-Mount camera. It even shows in the model names where the L-Mount variant is simply called Pyxis 12K, whereas the PL and the EF versions have that added in their names. L-Mount and internal NDs don't play nicely together as the flange depth is simply to shallow. For sure technically Blackmagic could add internal NDs to the PL and EF mount version like they did in the Pocket Pro, however that would mean a new model and a modified body to a camera that would not have an L-Mount version.

Kippertie has just released their pre-orders for the L-PL Revolva adapter with internal NDs. I think its a brilliant solution as it is (to my knowledge) the only behind the lens ND solution that allows a clear setting and the fact that you dont have to permanently modify your camera like you had to with the Wooden PL mount (coming from someone who used that mod extensively). The only caveat is the lens clearance of the adapter that will not allow PL lenses with a longer throat (mostly vintage lenses). For that I would keep a normal L-PL adapter on hand.

Paul, what is the lens clearance for the L-PL Revolva for the Pyxis?

What a strange website they have, basically a store but no contacts posted and no product description or Learn More button.

Haha yeah, the website does take some getting used to, but they are quite responsive via email. You can find their lens clearance templatere here https://teltec.de/media/pdf/c4/9b/2a/Revolva-PL-lens-fitment-templateGv5Gn6fsZWCsY.pdf They also apparently include a plastic fitment tool with each revolva so you can measure your lenses before attaching. For me it only becomes an issue as I am considering modding my Mamiya 645 lens set with a Speedbooster PL mount which would be too long for this adapter. Any modern PL lens should fit without issue though.

Yes, I’ll be fine with my lenses where the rear element protrudes less than 21mm. Thanks, you’re a font of knowledge!

L-Mount and internal NDs don't play nicely together as the flange depth is simply to shallow.

The L mount flange distance is 20.00mm, exactly the same as Canon's RF mount. Canon has multiple RF cameras with internal ND.

I think the Pyxis body isn't tall enough for a full frame open gate ND filter to move out of the way. Even the S35 16:9 Pocket 6K Pro is taller than the Pyxis.

Paul thanks for the link. Is the general consensus that the Kippertie is the best solution? Seem like a long backorder and I'm wondering if during that time other solutions will come to market.

I have yet to personally test the adapter but it seems like they are the only option for someone looking for a "Clear" setting on their behind the lens ND. They also currently have a 10% easter sale. They have a track record within the RED community and seem to be doing well there.

The 8 week wait is due to the fact that they only just introduced the item and this is a pre-order rather than a backorder I believe.

On another note - how are people planning to connect the support foot to the Pyxis? Its nice that they are offering a custom support foot that has the same height as the Pyxis, but it seems like there aren't any baseplates available that would support an additional 1/4 thread in the front. Or maybe I am just not looking in the right places?

Blackmagic could just make a replacement mount for the Pyxis that contains NDs.

Blackmagic could just make a replacement mount for the Pyxis that contains NDs.

I think more than anything there needs to be a PYXIS Pro body. It needs to be fixed V-Mount or Gold Mount. Just like fixed lens mount you choose the fixed battery mount. Then no matter what PL or EF Mount you choose it has internal ND. Thus there are 4 choices for the PYXIS Pro: V-PL, V-EF, Gold-PL, & Gold-EF.

I wouldn't mind the return of a 4-Inch Flip-Out Screen with the CFExpress Card Slots being inside of that Flip-Out area. Include a Status Display, and make the 4-Inch Flip-Out rotatable to the same level as the URSA Cine 5-Inch Flip-Out Screen.

Keep most of the rest of the PYXIS body otherwise. However, get rid of the Mini-XLR at the front in favor of 7-Pin Lemo for lens motors. Or, a 3-Pin Lemo for Run/Stop. Whichever would work for this PYXIS Body. Audio will either be "Scratch" from an on-camera source, or synced via external recorder. There's a timecode port remember. The purpose of this should be a lighter and smaller B-Cam. But if A then you need to record external audio.

That's where I am with this camera. URSA Cine is A-Cam in my eyes.

Anyone remember the Ikegami EC-35?

It was an engineering marvel at the time.

It had a slot in the body behind the lens that would take specially designed ND filters that were the size of an SD card(ish).

IKEGAMI EC-35 IMG_0942.JPG (881.73 KiB) Viewed 1905 times

How thick does an ND filter have to be?
Sure, the filter has to cover the size of the sensor but it does not need to be thick.
If slide in filters are used one does not need to have sophisticated mechanics in the camera body.

Subject matter discussed in 2015.

"Re: Built-in ND filters... or lack thereof."

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34477

I agree, Leon. Moving parts may eventually deteriorate and breakdown. The external Kippertie approach still involves a moving part but it seems less risky over time. The cartridge is very convenient compared to handling individual thin filters in a matte box which might be damaged as you change strengths. You know the situations where you need mild filtration or strong filtration or no filtration so I appreciate having one or more protective cartridges each of limited range with gradually increasing strengths that I don’t have to handle.

BMD’s approach of 0, 2, 4, 6 stops internally is super convenient (even more so an electronic filter if it was ‘perfect’) but too limited to appeal to every situation.

Ideally we may want to use a constant aperture in a scene even when we can’t control the illumination levels. Post can make seamless small adjustments of course without altering bokeh.