Noise reduction in-camera

Is there any chance we will see in-camera noise reduction for ProRes format? I think that's a big difference compared to other brands.

Doubtful. And, it's doubtful future cameras will have ProRes anyways. Thus I don't think Blackmagic is going to dedicate resources towards this.

I compared BRAW 4K 16:9 on the URSA Cine versus ProRes 444 4K 16:9 on the UMPG2, and even at 3:1 compression you get more recording time with the 4K BRAW than you do the ProRes 444. Blackmagic RAW is far more efficient and a better codec. It's time to let ProRes go.

The only setting where I got more recording time with 4K 16:9 ProRes was with 422 LT compared to BRAW 6:1. Obviously if you do UHD (3840x2160) then you'll get more recording time in ProRes 422. Ultimately, it's time to let go of the more compressed options of ProRes in Blackmagic Cameras. They only need to exist as an Edit Proxy from here on out as opposed to an acquisition format.

It's time to let ProRes go.

I think the only time I would ever shoot anything other than BRAW is if I'm handing the card to the client straight out of the camera and they're not professionals.

It's time to let ProRes go.

I think the only time I would ever shoot anything other than BRAW is if I'm handing the card to the client straight out of the camera and they're not professionals.

And, I still deal with that. But now I'm adding an intermediate where I convert the footage for them. So I'm shooting exclusively in BRAW, bringing it into Resolve off the card, and converting to an H.265 UHD file for the client.

Is there any chance we will see in-camera noise reduction for ProRes format?

No.

Like, I get it. We all have clients who want to walk away from the shoot with footage that requires zero finessing after the fact, and so there are compelling reasons to want to perform as much work as possible in-camera. BMD doesn't seem especially interested in servicing that market though; it's broadcast and cinema all the way from here on out my dude.

I'm exactly in that situation. I recorded a 2 hour indoor event and just wanted to hand off the footage to the client with a little grading, but the noise is so bad, it absolutely needs denoising in post. It's turning a 2+1 hour job into a 30hour render job. I can see why people go for FX6 etc. instead of BMD cameras.

It's not really about being able to hand off material at site, i just don't want to add 10-20-30 hours of rendering on top. I'm not asking for that to be on all the time. I prefer and use BRAW normally. But if the ProRes had an option to enable denoising, it would greatly help job turn around time (3 hours vs 30 hours eg) in cases where BRAW is not strictly needed.

I can see why people go for FX6 etc. instead of BMD cameras.

Pretty much, yeah. Right tool for the right job and all that.

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This may help explain why I'm not bothering with ProRes as much anymore. Compiled a little reference guide for you. As the Blackmagic Cameras I have will no longer record ProRes you can see that Blackmagic RAW is generally more efficient. Only when you get to the more compressed ProRes options do you get longer run times. Basically when you hit LT & Proxy. Yet, BRAW is all 12-Bit 444 compared to the ProRes 10-Bit 422 options. Only ProRes 444 is 12-Bit 444. And, that was never efficient compared to compressed raw video capture.
I have also included XAVC from the Sony for comparison. All of those in UHD versus the UHD ProRes options. All the XAVC options are 10-Bit 422 highest quality options of either the IntraFrame or the LongGOP options.
Either way, the purpose of the Blackmagic Cameras will be for higher quality image capture. Less about continual recording for long durations in the smallest file sizes. That will no be reserved for lower-end cameras from other brands (Sony FX6). The Blackmagic Cameras will be for the high-end clientele that have higher image quality needs.

I live by this Werner Herzog quote:

"We are not garbage collectors. We are filmmakers."

Arri Alexa has in-camera Denoise

Having denoise for prores doesn't prevent the normal usage of BRAW. It just helps the cameras being more competitive with other highend cameras.

It's not about using ProRes. It's about in-camera denoise option...which is obviously never gonna be available with BRAW...

Bandwidth or storage is not the issue. The extra rendering time with denoise in post is the issue. Other cameras are able to shorten down this process step. BMD cameras lack this feature.

"We are not garbage collectors. We are filmmakers."

Say it with me Tim: Herzog is not talking about corporate video. Are you aware that different market segments and different clients have different needs? It's nice that you've settled in to a workflow that you're happy with, but you're not even really listening to the question the OP is asking.

I appreciate the OP implications.

Since the BMCC and BMPCC (which recorded ProRes I believe), BMD has taken the path that in-camera denoise is not happening. Never say never, but it is doubtful that ProRes denoise will occur in the future. No harm in asking for it. After all look at continuous auto focus tracking — now in beta for BMCC6K.

Apologies. I'm still in a mood for little nonsense. But, the sentiment about "garbage collection" from Herzog should also apply to corporate.

I think that a large reason why I get some of the corporate clients I get is because I approach things in this way. Treating it like cinematic films for the content they need means I give them less fluff. They get what they need. I don't shoot overly superfluous content. When doing a teleprompter script I'll ask for us to cut when we need to adjust the teleprompter script for the talent reading it. I make sure they don't get more than the readings. This also helps keep files down.

This same content I will convert from BRAW. But I also color match two cameras for them. They love that I do that and I'm paid well to do it. It's recognized as part of my services; I provide color matched LOG footage.

I convert the raw footage to the equivalent H.265 Data Rate of the X-AVC. I make sure they get 10-Bit 422. I do not do any noise reduction however. And, every time I get the response that my footage looks clean.

I may wonder which camera you are using. In my experience the URSA 4.6K and Pocket 6K sensor have always delivered clean footage to clients without noise reduction. If this is the Pocket 4K, then I cannot answer. But I rarely have done noise reduction on the content I shoot and have never had complaints. Even with the BRAW I've converted for clients.

I guess the core issue is that BMD is not focusing on the smaller production market. I'm sure the pocket 4K and 6K were huge successes, showing that even without AF, denoise etc, they have a market group to sell to. The video quality is great. The interface is great. The integration with Resolve is great.

Would be cool if BMD acknowledged this and made a new pocket camera that was actually more appropriate for this direction. Make a split between "pocket" and pyxis, ursa etc.
Pyxis+ stays where it's at.
Pocket becomes smaller, lighter, more battery efficient (so V-mount is not needed immediately), compatible with more gimbals. Easier to use for single persons or gimbal with proper AF. Faster to use with denoise in-camera. Something that's actually appropriate for being called "pocket". Right now, the only purpose of the pocket cameras is to be cheaper than pyxis.

I may wonder which camera you are using. In my experience the URSA 4.6K and Pocket 6K sensor have always delivered clean footage to clients without noise reduction. If this is the Pocket 4K, then I cannot answer. But I rarely have done noise reduction on the content I shoot and have never had complaints. Even with the BRAW I've converted for clients.

I think the pocket 6K (and probably other BMD cameras) need either a ton of light (lighted for iso 200, max 400) to avoid magenta shadow noise or heavy DNR. I'm pretty sure that's a commonly shared experience. But other than that, i don't make any claims, i don't do anything remotely serious in comparison to what other people here do i guess.

I may wonder which camera you are using. In my experience the URSA 4.6K and Pocket 6K sensor have always delivered clean footage to clients without noise reduction. If this is the Pocket 4K, then I cannot answer. But I rarely have done noise reduction on the content I shoot and have never had complaints. Even with the BRAW I've converted for clients.

I think the pocket 6K (and probably other BMD cameras) need either a ton of light (lighted for iso 200, max 400) to avoid magenta shadow noise or heavy DNR. I'm pretty sure that's a commonly shared experience. But other than that, i don't make any claims, i don't do anything remotely serious in comparison to what other people here do i guess.

I light everything like I did with film. I do come from a film background. Thus, if that is the difference, then you need to invest in lighting gear.

Do not upgrade a camera when the problem can be solved in lighting. There was a recent video on YouTube posted by someone on that subject. I agreed, but also live with upgrading cameras based on the needs I have for features missing.

I also will remind I reached for the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K more than I ever did the Pocket 6K Pro. The Pocket line was always a mediocre compromise to the URSA line. I love the URSA Cine 12K now. It works so well. Even got it perfectly balanced on my Steadicam. However, still selling the Steadicam due to lack of use in over 1.5-years. Either way, the URSA Cine 12K does everything I need, and it doesn't even have ProRes. Recent client I sent UHD H.265 files from the 4K BRAW said they thought it looked the best of all the footage I've sent in since I started doing video content for them in 2023. Plain and simple BRAW is more than sufficient enough.

Tim, why does Arri, who makes high-end film cameras and lighting equipment, have in-camera denoise in their cameras?

As someone who also came from a long film career, I'm always amazed how few people understand film or sensor exposure.

Negative film only had a "2-3 stop exposure range" if you never had to match color and contrast and sat with another shot. You wanna match images between shots? NAIL your scene contrast lighting AND your in-cam exposure. Within 1/3rd stop. Period.

I work normally with a preponderance of BRAW, but some mov, mp4, occasional Red, Arri, and Sony. A Panny file now and then.

The cameras can all capture bits of an image down dark enough compared to their "middle gray" that you can lift that and get... something. But yea, it's close enough to sensor noise floor it's noisy.

Some cameras do some or a lot of in-cam de-noise things, and most often, that is *not* your friend. A few high end rigs don't actually hurt the image notably with this, while dropping some image noise, so yay them.

I'm very familiar with controlled lighting for shadows to create a gradient in the scene lighting towards black. Which i think Tim does also.

So my created footage tends to have less noise than most i get delivered to me. No matter the ISO, using my 4.6K G2 or pocket 4k. Even with an old Panny GH3 on a gimbal, or a Nikon as C cam. All of them at times used at ISO1600 settings.

But then, that does take having and understanding practical field use of incident and spot meters, false color screens, and the specific camera capabilities and needs.

I recently picked up a used Minolta color meter, and that has made a huge productivity gain. Simply setting color and tint of all cameras according to the meter has cut down the distance I have to push the pixels to match hues in post, with of course the added benefit of not risking inducing artifacts in especially the lesser camera images in post work.

But still, understanding shadow exposure and control does the most to control image noise.

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Tim, why does Arri, who makes high-end film cameras and lighting equipment, have in-camera denoise in their cameras?

Honestly, I can't remember if Arri has denoising in their cameras. Last I used an Arri in ProRes was the Alexa 35 in 2023, and same year I used Alexa Mini in ARRIRAW. In general, we always lit for Arri. So it was clean because we properly exposed the image.

Same year I worked with a few different RED Cameras from RED Ranger, Monstro, Komodo X, etc. We got some very noisy looking images from one of the REDs on a shoot where it was 1600 ISO and the scene was too dimly lit. I was DIT and sitting there with director looking at the footage and how noisy it was debating if we needed to reshoot those shots. Again, that's a high end camera. But we were shooting REDRAW.

I've seen a lot of different images from each of these camera systems. If you light it then the image is clean. That's where I come from. Arri doesn't feel like it is doing anything special in terms of ProRes denoising from the footage I've worked with. But again, we light all of that footage like it is film to get best results. I do the same with my Blackmagic Cameras.

Last time I shot 3200 ISO on the UMPG2 in 2023 I knew there would be massive amounts of noise. I told the producer and director on set that the image was going to be very noisy. And it was. We were shooting at dusk after the sun went down without any lighting gear. Not my ideal situation. They had to deal with it in post. But the 3200 ISO from the UMPG2 was cleaner somehow than the Canon C300ii at same 3200 ISO.

Either way, I don't like to go above 1600 unless last resort. Shoot clean. Avoid noise.

Great discussion and advice. I downloaded the Ursa 12k LF samples and found even the well lit footage to have quite a bit of noise. I have only graded Arri footage (Amira) a couple of times and didn’t notice any noise.

The Ursa noise was quite visible in the scopes and I found applying just a little bit of Neat took
Care of it and the scopes sharpened up.

Any thoughts on this? I have the Pyxis on order.

Great discussion and advice. I downloaded the Ursa 12k LF samples and found even the well lit footage to have quite a bit of noise. I have only graded Arri footage (Amira) a couple of times and didn’t notice any noise.

The Ursa noise was quite visible in the scopes and I found applying just a little bit of Neat took
Care of it and the scopes sharpened up.

Any thoughts on this? I have the Pyxis on order.

Magenta noise in shadows is a common complaint going way back for BMD cameras. It just scales linearly with sensitivity. At iso 200 and 1250 it's about ok. At 400 and 3200 it's pretty high. I attached an example image you can have a look at. Depending on your viewing conditions, it should be quite appearent already at iso 400, and also easy to see the difference denoise makes to remove the chroma noise.

In my opinion, the noise pattern is the same for most RAW things. I shoot DSLR RAW as well, and anything above ISO 100 pretty much needs denoising. I think it's normal to denoise any RAW image at some point in the process, wether that's in-camera or in post.

I'm guessing you should expect the same for the pyxis.

I find images in motion without any sort of noise pretty disturbing to look at.

Too clean feels too digital. I always add film grain.

Honestly I’d do the method recently developed of sending out the image on to film and then scanning the film to get that film grain built in in the most natural way. There’s a magic to film grain. It feels like a movie when I get the sense that there is grain in the image.


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One of the two reasons I bought blackmagic cameras was the lack of noise reduction. Never looked back either.

The other was the lack of in-camera sharpening. Thank you BMD!

One of the two reasons I bought blackmagic cameras was the lack of noise reduction. Never looked back either.

The other was the lack of in-camera sharpening. Thank you BMD!

It has in-camera sharpening. It's a toggeable option....

One of the two reasons I bought blackmagic cameras was the lack of noise reduction. Never looked back either.

The other was the lack of in-camera sharpening. Thank you BMD!

We forgot because we turned it off as soon as we got it.

It has in-camera sharpening. It's a toggeable option....

One of the two reasons I bought blackmagic cameras was the lack of noise reduction. Never looked back either.

The other was the lack of in-camera sharpening. Thank you BMD!

We forgot because we turned it off as soon as we got it.

It has in-camera sharpening. It's a toggeable option....

Hi,

Which cameras have this setting?

I think the point is more that it's a bit silly to be happy about a toggeable feature missing. What on earth lol. Are people buying a tool or affirmation?

Hi,

Which cameras have this setting?

Pretty much all the new ones. I know my Pocket 6k does.

My BMPCC4K allows you to adjust sharpness in camera but that was intended to apply if you’re shooting for broadcast. I turned it off after some experimentation years ago but using the lowest setting for cinema is decent.

Hi,

Which cameras have this setting?

Pretty much all the new ones. I know my Pocket 6k does.

Hi, I'm not seeing it on the Cine 12 K. Possibly I'm just missing it. The manual doesn't seem to mention it. Please let me know. Thanks.

Hi,

Which cameras have this setting?

Pretty much all the new ones. I know my Pocket 6k does.

Hi, I'm not seeing it on the Cine 12 K. Possibly I'm just missing it. The manual doesn't seem to mention it. Please let me know. Thanks.

This was a broadcast feature for the ProRes files from older models of Blackmagic cameras. It’s not in any models that do Blackmagic RAW only.

In general I’ve always kept the Sharpening off when I was using ProRes. For the better part of the decade that I have used ProRes I never enabled sharpening of any kind in camera. CinemaDNG and Blackmagic RAW was always a preference over ProRes, but when I needed ProRes detail was fine enough at all compression options without any sharpening. I’ve never heard complaints from a single client.

By comparison I’ve heard more complaints about Canon and Sony footage shot on projects. Even had one state that the Canon footage looked like garbage by comparison to the Blackmagic. And, on another shoot with an Arri with a Sony as B-Cam the client literally asked for the Sony to stop being used because it couldn’t compare to the Arri. Yet, I’ve used the UMPG2 in ProRes as a “B” for an Arri in ProRes numerous times and never heard any complaints. Many thought it cut superbly well with the Arri.

The lesson I’ve learned: Blackmagic holds its own.


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This was a broadcast feature for the ProRes files from older models of Blackmagic cameras. It’s not in any models that do Blackmagic RAW only.

In general I’ve always kept the Sharpening off when I was using ProRes. For the better part of the decade that I have used ProRes I never enabled sharpening of any kind in camera. CinemaDNG and Blackmagic RAW was always a preference over ProRes, but when I needed ProRes detail was fine enough at all compression options without any sharpening. I’ve never heard complaints from a single client.

By comparison I’ve heard more complaints about Canon and Sony footage shot on projects. Even had one state that the Canon footage looked like garbage by comparison to the Blackmagic. And, on another shoot with an Arri with a Sony as B-Cam the client literally asked for the Sony to stop being used because it couldn’t compare to the Arri. Yet, I’ve used the UMPG2 in ProRes as a “B” for an Arri in ProRes numerous times and never heard any complaints. Many thought it cut superbly well with the Arri.

The lesson I’ve learned: Blackmagic holds its own.


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Actually, my Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 has it as well and the camera is BRAW only.

Hi,

Which cameras have this setting?

Pretty much all the new ones. I know my Pocket 6k does.

Hi, I'm not seeing it on the Cine 12 K. Possibly I'm just missing it. The manual doesn't seem to mention it. Please let me know. Thanks.

It's a toggleable option in the menu, but only activates when shooting ProRes. I think it came in some of the later firmware updates and may not be listed in older manuals.

This was a broadcast feature for the ProRes files from older models of Blackmagic cameras. It’s not in any models that do Blackmagic RAW only.

Thanks, Tim

For the Cine 12K the manual mentions sharpening, but only in the developer sections.

Actually, my Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 has it as well and the camera is BRAW only.

Yes, but it only affects the signal on the wire, like dynamic range, the Braw file is unchanged regardless of the configuration.

Good Luck

One of the two reasons I bought blackmagic cameras was the lack of noise reduction. Never looked back either.

The other was the lack of in-camera sharpening. Thank you BMD!

It has in-camera sharpening. It's a toggeable option....

Only for ProRes and live using.


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