URSA Cine & PYXIS 12K Feature Request: 6K S35 & 4K S16

Subject basically says it. But I'd love to see an update that enables a 6K Super 35mm option. Going with the same sensor binning that exists in the Full Frame Open Gate, when in S35 Window there's an option to do ⅔ downscale of the 9K sensor to 6K. This was also accomplished in the UMP12K with the 6K S16 mode where 4K S16 was an option.

The added benefit is that the APS-C Pocket 6Ks can still be used then as a B when doing 6K S35 on the URSA Cine 12K. And, this can help provide some smaller file sizes and faster sensor readout speeds hopefully. The main goal is for when only 6K is needed Super 35 mode is still a great recording option. Not sure if this would also get some higher frame rates, but for action with a long telephoto focal gets extra stretch on S35 compared to Full Frame. So those high speed shots would still be impressive for 4K delivery. Of course, 8K delivery means 9K Super 35 still makes more sense.

Not much else to it. Just a request that basically treats the Super 35 mode on the UC12K like the Super 16 mode on the UMP12K. One more little downscale option, which may provide further benefits.

In addition to this request, which would also now effect the PYXIS 12K...

4.3K SUPER 16MM MODE

4,299 x 2,417 Pixels of the 12K sensor comes out to being the same physical size of Super 16mm. And, as my recent video proved; there's a ton of detail available in S16 mode. Video below to remind you:



And, there is a lot of amazing Super 16mm PL glass that is out there. This could be a great mode to have for both the URSA Cine & PYXIS 12K. The quality is there. And, it meets the minimum 4K requirements for most streaming platforms.

I know it's one more mode to add. But I'm sure plenty would love it.

And, I think everyone would love the ability to shoot Super 35mm in 6K on both the URSA Cine & PYXIS 12K. It seems logical that a good 4K Super 16mm mode is an equally popular choice to have.

A FINALE NOTE:

Frame Rates

So, there can be a natural increase in frame rates available per camera system. Super 16mm in 4K could yield the fastest frame rates per camera. And, with a good enough 4K 130 FPS possible for the PYXIS the possibilities for 260 FPS are available for the more powerful URSA Cine. This is basically doubling the max frame rate in 16x9 Super 35mm 9K, which is a very decent option for 4K Super 16mm Max Frame Rates.

6K Super 35 may yield some slightly faster higher frame rates. But I think that for max 100 FPS in 3:2 Super 35mm on the UCine 12K in 9K currently means we could maybe see 120 FPS possible in 6K 3:2, which would yield potentially higher than 168 FPS Super 35mm 2.4:1 6K. These would be half for the PYXIS when in 6K Super 35 mode.

Those are respectable possibilities by working out the additional modes for both cameras.

Tim - Great writeup and absolutely support your request. Seems fairly easy to implement and would give those cameras a much wider usability. Let's hope Blackmagic is listening!

Tim - Great writeup and absolutely support your request. Seems fairly easy to implement and would give those cameras a much wider usability. Let's hope Blackmagic is listening!

Thanks! I hope we get more people interested in this so that Blackmagic sees the demand and adds it.

I’ll add my name to the list of people who would love a 6K S35 shooting mode, and a S16 mode (if possible).

I think the PYXIS 12K is almost the perfect camera for how I shoot video. A 6K S35 mode(especially if it could increase sensor readout speeds), and a S16 mode would put this camera above just about everything else on the market for me.

Oh if we are doing requests then please give me a native 4K UHD option even if it's windowed.

Thanks.

Nathaniel, the Pyxis 12K sensor already has a Super35 frame. It’s one of the so called 9K options.
All frames here are 16:9 aspect ratio,
values rounded to two decimal places:

9K Super 35
8688x4896 photosites
about 25.2x14.2mm
image circle about 28.92mm.

6K
If the 12K sensor with 0.0029mm pitch had a 6K option it would be closer to Super16 than Super35. The 8K 6:5 6432x5360 window cropped to
6432x3618 photosites
18.65x10.49mm
image circle 21.4mm

4K Super 16
However the closest existing Super 16 resolution for the 12K sensor is
4096x2304 photosites
11.88x6.68mm
image circle 13.63mm.

Hey Tim, what compression ratio are you using in your video below? Shot 12 K open gate I'm assuming. I'm finding that 3:1 really shines when you're punching in in post.

Hey Tim, what compression ratio are you using in your video below? Shot 12 K open gate I'm assuming. I'm finding that 3:1 really shines when you're punching in in post.

The scale out video I shot in Q1 compression. The 1.5 minute raw file was around 50 GB in file size. I shot on a 50mm lens at T5.6 or T8, somewhere within that range. I really need /i Technology lenses so I can pull up the metadata and tell you the exact aperture I was at.

A super 16mm mode 4K or 6K for Pyxis12K camera would be perfect for a documentary or music video production!

That’s right. I wouldn’t hesitate to record 4K but with a high quality codec like Q1 when you could easily have 20 terabytes of media in a documentary. Shooting at 9K or 8K could be over 50 terabytes shooting at Q3. Ratios can be ridiculous in a documentary where you record for an hour to get five minutes of useful footage if you’re lucky, two minutes might be more reasonable.

I was planning to make this post myself.

Given that BMD has developed this amazing sensor capable of recording raw at multiple resolutions, I think it's only fair to suggest that such "binning" is possible in crop modes as well.

Blackmagic, we love your cameras, but don't have infinite storage space. I would love to use the S35 lenses I adore on this new camera; I'm someone who happens to prefer S35 as a format for most projects. But 9K is quite a bit. I've barely been able to keep up with 6K in my current BMD camera. I also believe that more and more people are finding 6K to be the sweet spot in resolution. We get enough extra resolution for cropping in on certain shots and the advantages of super sampling.

Given the additional dynamic range and faster sensor readout, the Pyxis 12k can could really be an awesome upgrade from the Bmpcc6kPro, and a potential alternative to the Alexa 35 for some users. But please don't force us to deal with 9K resolution if it's not what we want.

Okay, did some calculations and this is what I came up with for the 6K Super 35 Windows and 4K Super 16 Window.

Screenshot 2025-04-07 at 10.42.52 PM.png (143.99 KiB) Viewed 4742 times

As can be seen recording times will vary compared to previous Pocket 6K models at APS-C. But ultimately file sizes will still round out similarly to those Pockets. Super 16mm almost hits closer to those old 4.6K record times. For Super 16 4K that's very strong!

You know there's even a 2K Super 8 hidden in this sensor. Haha. Not sure who wants to shoot Super 8, but it's possible to still have a cleanly beautiful HD frame.

Hope this gets noticed by the developers! Maybe someone from Blackmagic could speak to the technical feasibility of this request? Does the 12K RGBW Sensor support a S35 scaling to 6K and a S16 Sensor crop? Is this something Blackmagic would be able to implement within the Pyxis body? Kristian or Captain perhaps? I know JB has an intimate understanding of that sensor as well.

Tim, you’re not using the correct value for the sensor pitch of the Cine 12K or the Pyxis 12K which is 2.9 microns. For example 5120 x .0029 =14.848 mm.

Tim, you’re not using the correct value for the sensor pitch of the Cine 12K or the Pyxis 12K which is 2.9 microns. For example 5120 x .0029 =14.848 mm.

Well, since I don’t know the exact math Blackmagic uses for this tech I did a quick and dirty 9K x (⅔) = 6K sort of formula in my Numbers Doc. The main purpose is to illustrate the possibility.


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Still wondering about the technical feasibility of those. Would be amazing to have those modes implemented, but not quite sure how the RGBW sensor scaling works for crop modes.

We do know that it works by reducing the pixels output by ⅓ or ⅔ of the sensor baseline while taking information from the full sensor area. That’s how there’s no cropping so your BRAW 12K delivered image and your 4K delivered image have the same perspective and depth of field characteristics which is remarkable. And allows the sensor readout of 8K/4K to be reduced compared to the open gate 12K. As one of the BMD reps mentioned, “it’s blackmagic.”

There’s no ¼ reduction in which would give you 9K; to shoot 9K the sensor is windowed.

Rick, I understood Tim's request was to allow 6K and 3K downscales of the 9K sensor crop. If the scaling does work via 1/3 and 2/3 baseline, then in theory a 6K and 3K S35 should be possible, perhaps even with a faster rolling shutter and higher framerates as a result, which I think a lot of S35 projects would appreciate. The question on my end was whether or not this custom sensor has implemented the scaling only on a full sensor level or on crop settings as well.

And a 4K S16 crop would be on another page all together but I still think a very welcome addition to this incredibly capable sensor.

Thanks for the clarification, Paul. I would think the 9K window utilizes the same 6x6 matrix as the 12K open gate to determine values which could make a 6K and 3K recording option possible, but I don’t know for certain if my assumptions are true or if and when it would be feasible to include 6K/3K.

A Super16 window recording 4.5K or 4K might be feasible too. Would be nice for BMD to comment especially if those options are not feasible for other reasons (although it’s rare for BMD to share anything about future features).

I doubt we'll get a definitive answer from Blackmagic until they actually decide to implement any of these features. If they do. "If" being the optimum word.

They didn't discontinue the UMP12K at NAB. So, Super 16mm is still doable with that camera. And, 4K Super 35 is still doable with it. It sadly is less dynamic range. So, they may have in their mind the fact that they already offer a Super 35 and Super 16 option in another body.

I'd love for them to make it all available in this one body. We'll have to wait and see. The PYXIS may influence them to do it.

Whats the chance BMD will add this on the Pyxis 12k but not on the Ursa Cine 12k? They have a habit of adding features on cameras that is selling well but ignore updates on the ones that don't sell as much. ie the UMP G2. I'm actually more optimistic focus tracking likely to come in the Pyxis 12k for that reason than the Cine 12k, excuse would be Cine is more professional crew use camera with dedicated focus puller or additional features is too much of a stretch for the camera to handle.

It's unfortunate that build they don't build all their S35 and S16 crops off from the image circle of the lenses of those formats. The 9K crops swing between 28.93-32.79mm. The 16:9 crop has the smallest image circle and has resolution of 8688x4896 but a crop that fully utilizes a standard S35 image circle would be 9344x5264. That's 15% more resolution.

Unfortunately they already picked their 9K crops and advertise with them so they probably can't change them. That's why I'm hoping if they bring the Ursa/Cine/Pyxis 12K style UI to other cameras that they're image circle based.

Count me in this group as well. I was at NAB and was disappointed that the PYXIS 12k and Cine 12k didn't have a super 16 option. I'm very surprised considering it was an option on the Mini Pro and PYXIS 6k. I spoke to the reps in Vegas but they acted like it wasn't possible with the different sensor? I've got lots of great Super 16 glass that I've accumulated over the years shooting on the first BMPCC and BMMCC. In the world of razor thin DOF I think deep DOF stands out. I had my annual budget burning a hole in my pocket at NAB but left empty handed. I'll be purchasing two used URSA Mini Pros but I would have preferred the small PYXIS form factor. I hope this trend is reversed in the future. Blackmagic, don't forget about the people who have invested in your eco system since the first cameras.

Count me in this group as well. I was at NAB and was disappointed that the PYXIS 12k and Cine 12k didn't have a super 16 option. I'm very surprised considering it was an option on the Mini Pro and PYXIS 6k. I spoke to the reps in Vegas but they acted like it wasn't possible with the different sensor?

It's definitely possible with the sensor. Sensors don't have built-in crops, you select the amount of columns and rows to read it via software so that representative was wrong.

That being said, a S16 crop on the Mini Pro 12K is going to be higher resolution than the FF 12K sensor so those smaller, denser sensors are a better match for those lenses.

... The 9K crops swing between 28.93 - 32.79mm. The 16:9 crop has the smallest image circle and has resolution of 8688 x 4896 but a crop that fully utilizes a standard S35 image circle would be 9344 x 5264. That's 15% more resolution...

Super35 film gate is 4:3 aspect ratio and physical dimensions 24.89mm x 18.66mm; on the Pyxis 12K, matching that Super35 physical size would likely be 8584x6438 photosites (must be divisible by 8), image circle of 31.1m.
The 16:9 aspect ratio would likely be 8584 x 4824 photosites with image circle 28.6mm.

The current 9K 16:9 on the Pyxis 12K is 8688 x 4896 as you noted already. 17:9 is 9312 x 4896, 29.2mm image circle. These seem quite reasonable choices. Yes the 9K 3:2 aspect ratio is large at 32.78mm but that’s managed by some Super35 prime lenses (and zooms). I would suspect most people wanting to shoot Super35 would not be interested in 3:2 aspect ratio.

Now Super16 would arguably be based on the film gate of a suitable camera and likely be 4320 x 2600 photosites with an image circle of 14.6mm and about an aspect ratio of 1.66:1 based on a Super 16 camera film gate of about 12.52 x 7.41mm.

The closest equivalent on the Pyxis 12K is the 4K 3:2 window 4096 x 2680. That isn’t a close match but it might be acceptable.

Your thoughts?

Super35 film gate is 4:3 aspect ratio and physical dimensions 24.89mm x 18.66mm; on the Pyxis 12K, matching that Super35 physical size would likely be 8584x6438 photosites (must be divisible by 8), image circle of 31.1m.
The 16:9 aspect ratio would likely be 8584 x 4824 photosites with image circle 28.6mm.

Sure, that would be roughly the resolution and image circle of a 16:9 crop of S35 film but I don't think anybody is looking to emulate the film size so much as they want to use lenses that target an S35-ish image circle.

The current 9K 16:9 on the Pyxis 12K is 8688 x 4896 as you noted already. 17:9 is 9312 x 4896, 29.2mm image circle. These seem quite reasonable choices. Yes the 9K 3:2 aspect ratio is large at 32.78mm but that’s managed by some Super35 prime lenses (and zooms). I would suspect most people wanting to shoot Super35 would not be interested in 3:2 aspect ratio.

Yea, I agree it just seems like rather weird and arbitrary decision to derive the 16:9 crop by chopping off the sides of the 17:9 crop. That would make sense on a 17:9 S35 sensor but when you're crop out of a much larger sensor, you might as well try to make the maximum use out of the image that lens is producing. They did the same thing with the 2.4:1 crop, it's just the 17:9 crop with top and bottom chopped off. They could have gone with a a 9896x4120 crop (31.09mm) instead.

After all, that's generally how the sizes of image sensors are picked. When Red designed their sensor for the Komodo and said it would be a Super35 17:9 sensor, they didn't match it to size of 17:9 crop from S35 film. If they did then the width of the sensor would be 24.89mm. Instead they tried to make better use of the image circle and made it 27.03mm wide. The Ursa 12K's sensor is the same size.

Technically, those sensors are a just 30.52mm but I can understand being conservative with the sensor size because you want to make sure you're getting the most out of that sensors resolution however when it comes to crops from larger sensor, it makes no sense to be conservative with the image circle it covers. If anything it could even skew slightly above the standard image circle because you can chop off any vignette afterwards.

Now Super16 would arguably be based on the film gate of a suitable camera and likely be 4320 x 2600 photosites with an image circle of 14.6mm and about an aspect ratio of 1.66:1 based on a Super 16 camera film gate of about 12.52 x 7.41mm.

The closest equivalent on the Pyxis 12K is the 4K 3:2 window 4096 x 2680. That isn’t a close match but it might be acceptable.

Your thoughts?

That math checks out. The actual image circle of S16 is 14.55mm so the 14.62mm of that crop is a little above that but I think that's fine. The Ursa 12K's 6K S16 and the Alexi Mini's S16 crops have image circles of 15.28mm and 15.15mm respectively. Anybody shooting with S16 glass would be perfectly happy with that.

I just don't see the point in using the size of the film gate as a reference for the crop when its clear that modern sensors that are sized for these formats are aiming to accommodate compatibility with the lenses and not emulate what it would be like shooting on that film stock.

The closest equivalent on the Pyxis 12K is the 4K 3:2 window 4096 x 2680. That isn’t a close match but it might be acceptable.

Your thoughts?

Does Pyxis 12K have a 4K 3:2 window? 4096x2680 is a decently close match. It's 14.2mm which is much better than the Ursa 12K's 4K S16 crop (10.19mm). It's slightly south of the original BMPCC's 14.32mm circle though and even smaller than the Pyxis 6K/6K FF's S16 crop.

The 12K sensor is so dense with pixels that any mm you throw away is a decent amount of resolution so it might as well shoot 4192x2792 to take full advantage of that 14.6mm image circle.

Pyxis 12K has 4K 3:2 4096 x 2680 with the field of view of the 12K open gate.

The photosite counts are derived from the 12K dimensions that are a fraction under 135 film gate 36x24mm. That’s due to the math used to retain the same FOV when you record 12K, 8K or 4K. The exception to the rule is the unique 9K window collection of aspect ratios following the same relationships as the 12K collection and the same sensor 6x6 matrix used to define each recorded pixel.

8K and 4K have their own rules that may begin with the 6x6 matrix but result in recording a third or two-thirds less pixels. These rules may be why the BMD rep stated they couldn’t come up with a variety of ‘perfect’ arbitrary frame sizes as some people wanted. Again 9K being the one exception to define the all-important Super35 derived frame sizes.

I think the reason they didn’t say 8K is our ‘Super35’ (which they could have done since they have previously wanted us to pretend that even an APS-C sensor frame is Super35 in other cameras) is they wanted to show respect for the many Super35 prime lenses that do exceed the image circle of Super35 film for cinema cameras.

Even my relatively humble original SLR Magic APO primes cover 46.5mm image circles. Only Sigma seems to claim a 28.4mm image circle covers Super35 and thankfully we all know they really cover more area than Sigma stamps on each lens barrel.

As for Super16, will BMD offer another exceptional window for a true Super16 perspective? Only the Oracle at Delphi knows, but apparently not.

I’m more disappointed I can’t mount my Fujinon 20x Cine Zoom B4 mount lens on the Pyxis 12K. Any suggestions to address the lack of a B4 mount on Pyxis appreciated.

I’m resigned to move on from recording Super16 (in my Faustian adoption of 16 stops of dynamic range) and the reality cinema deliverables today (2025) support 4K projection and at least 4KTV… finally, eh?

We’re still fighting in a revolution begun with a $100,000 DaVinci station becoming a software giveaway when you buy a $995 camera. Live long and prosper, BMD.

Pyxis 12K has 4K 3:2 4096 x 2680 with the field of view of the 12K open gate.

That's what I thought but you said "The closest equivalent on the Pyxis 12K is the 4K 3:2 window 4096 x 2680" so I got confused lol It sounded like your were talking about an existed windowed 4K mode.

I think the reason they didn’t say 8K is our ‘Super35’ (which they could have done since they have previously wanted us to pretend that even an APS-C sensor frame is Super35 in other cameras) is they wanted to show respect for the many Super35 prime lenses that do exceed the image circle of Super35 film for cinema cameras.

Sure, I can understand why they would choose an image circle that's slightly more or slightly less than the standard 31.1mm. My issue is that they seemingly aren't deriving their crops from a consistent image circle. It looks like they're deriving the 17:9, 16:9, and 2.4:1 crops to match the size of the same crops on the Ursa 12K sensor. The 3:2 crop is an exception because cropping that out of the 17:9 crop would be very small and it seems be derived 4:3 crop using the same image circle as the 17:9 crop, then expanding it horizontally to 3:2.

It's weird that they called that family of crops "9K" to begin with when the horizontal resolutions of those crops are all over the place anyway. They could have just called the family "Super35" which would have better illustrated that it's a windowed shooting mode.

Even my relatively humble original SLR Magic APO primes cover 46.5mm image circles. Only Sigma seems to claim a 28.4mm image circle covers Super35 and thankfully we all know they really cover more area than Sigma stamps on each lens barrel.

Sure but that SLR Magic APO isn't a Super35 lens.

I’m more disappointed I can’t mount my Fujinon 20x Cine Zoom B4 mount lens on the Pyxis 12K. Any suggestions to address the lack of a B4 mount on Pyxis appreciated.

I would imagine you'd need a focal expander that increases the image circle to S35 or full frame.

I’m resigned to move on from recording Super16 (in my Faustian adoption of 16 stops of dynamic range) and the reality cinema deliverables today (2025) support 4K projection and at least 4KTV… finally, eh?

The S16 crop modes can serve dual purposes though: to support S16 lenses and to offer higher frame rate shooting modes. That's how I see the S16 modes on the P4K and the BMCC6K/Pyxis 6K.

The people who use these crops to shoot with Super16 lenses are in the minority. Most people use them if they need to shoot slow motion. But by having these crops be tied to the image circle of an existing class of lenses, that means that if someone needs a slow motion wide shot then they could potentially get their hands on a wide-angle S16 lens or use a focal reducer instead of having the find an ultra wide S35 lens to compensate for the crop.

I have a feeling that almost nobody has used the P4K's 1080p crop since the S16 crop was introduced. It can't shoot higher frame rates, it's nearly half the resolution, it has a 1.4x larger crop factor and there is no class of lenses built for that image circle. It's about 13% too large for Super 8 lenses and 30% too small for S16 lenses. It would have made infinitely more sense to have shipped the P4K with the S16 crop instead of the 1080p crop and just added aspect ratios based around the S16 image circle.

On the FF6K sensor, the 1080p crop at least offers an additional 10fps over the S16 crop but they also could have gotten to 120 fps with an S16 17:9 crop and, just like with the P4K, it would be high resolution than the 1080p crop.

Good post. I can’t remember when I last shot HD. I shoot at least 2K or 2.6K or 4K. On the Pyxis 12K, I’ll usually shoot 9K. I’m looking forward to using the increased resolution on capture, but deliverables will be 4K.

It's about 13% too large for Super 8 lenses and 30% too small for S16 lenses.

Pretty much all the Super8 C-Mount glass I have covers the 4:3 extraction from the 1080p mode of the BMPCC4K. It’s kind of a perfect lil’ Super8 simulation!

Pretty much all the Super8 C-Mount glass I have covers the 4:3 extraction from the 1080p mode of the BMPCC4K. It’s kind of a perfect lil’ Super8 simulation!

That checks out. 1440x1080 gets roughly an 8.33mm image circle while the standard Super8 image circle is 8.86mm. That's still a significant amount of extra pixels that you're recording though while an actual 4:3 S16 crop would be about 1536x1152. That's 13.7% higher effective resolution while recording 15% fewer pixels than the 1080p crop.

So while the 1080p crop isn't a bad option for using Super8 lenses with a 4:3 frame guides, it's still a way worse option than a proper crop built around that image circle. Between FF, Super35/APS-C, Super16, and Super8, camera manufacturers have four common target lens image circles that films have used for decades before digital cinema cameras existed. It makes so much more sense to target those for sensor crops instead of standard resolutions. You can always upscale and downscale to standard resolutions in post..

Loving all the technical analysis here. Just wish Kristian or Hook could chime in on the technical feasibility of this! But they are probably all busy with getting 9.6 out the door

Loving all the technical analysis here. Just wish Kristian or Hook could chime in on the technical feasibility of this! But they are probably all busy with getting 9.6 out the door

BMD employees tend to not jump into these kinds of discussions.

For what its worth I filed a feature request with them over email, so hoping this gets noticed in the proper channels at least. Perhaps its worthwhile for others in this thread to do the same, to demonstrate the interest for this feature.

For what its worth I filed a feature request with them over email, so hoping this gets noticed in the proper channels at least. Perhaps its worthwhile for others in this thread to do the same, to demonstrate the interest for this feature.

There's an proper channel for feature requests via email? I thought the forum was it.