Why no 6K ProRes recording on BMPCC 6K?

Why are we not allowed to choose 6K resolution for ProRes on the BMPCC 6K?
I don't believe there is any technical limitation in ProRes that would limit it to 4K.
Is it licensing?
Any chance a future firmware update could enable 6K ProRes recording?

Why are we not allowed to choose 6K resolution for ProRes on the BMPCC 6K?

You'd have to ask BMD directly but if I had to guess, I'd wager that BMD just didn't see the point. Byte for byte, BRAW is a better codec, especially at higher resolutions. BRAW 5:1 requires less bandwidth than ProRes 422HQ, and you're also getting 12-bit instead of 10-bit, 4:4:4 instead of 4:2:2, and the ability to change WB/Tint/ISO/Gamma/Colour Space/etc. Plus, BRAW is light enough that you're not really going to notice much of a performance difference on a modern computer. In just about every imaginable metric it's the better choice.

In the areas where it may be less ideal—say, if you're gonna hand media off to a client and you want to "bake in" some decisions—there's always UHD ProRes.

Any chance a future firmware update could enable 6K ProRes recording?

Considering that BMD is releasing a lot of new cameras that don't record ProRes at all, I really truly doubt it.

It was a technical limitation.

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProRes

It was a technical limitation.

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProRes

That’s not true. Even your link quotes for example 8k.

Apple says:

All Apple ProRes codecs support all frame sizes (including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and 5K) at full resolution. The data rates vary based on codec type, image content, frame size, and frame rate.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102207

Basically ProRes supports any resolution divisible by 2.

Ursa Mini 4.6k for example is able to record ProRes in 4608 x 2592 px.
Some DJIs drones have been able to record 6k ProRes, too.

Not a technical limitation since the Pocket 6K had ProRes. However, I think this has more to do with Licensing. I have a feeling that BMD didn't want to keep paying Apple for Licensing of ProRes in their cameras. For Resolve it's fine, but in camera it probably added to the cost unnecessarily. And, since BRAW is so efficient they didn't feel the need for ProRes.

I know a lot of people want ProRes for smaller file sizes. And, I get it. Clients don't often need BRAW big files. It seems this is the direction that Blackmagic no longer wants to go in. So, they have changed strategy.

It was a technical limitation.

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProRes

That’s not true. Even your link quotes for example 8k.

Apple says:

All Apple ProRes codecs support all frame sizes (including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and 5K) at full resolution. The data rates vary based on codec type, image content, frame size, and frame rate.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102207

Basically ProRes supports any resolution divisible by 2.

Ursa Mini 4.6k for example is able to record ProRes in 4608 x 2592 px.
Some DJIs drones have been able to record 6k ProRes, too.

As you can see in the quote you posted 6k wasn't listed. At the time of the release of the Pocket 6K, it wasn't supported.
It supported 8k but it didn't support 6k until years later.

https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/doc ... ProRes.pdf

As you can see in the quote you posted 6k wasn't listed. At the time of the release of the Pocket 6K, it wasn't supported.
It supported 8k but it didn't support 6k until years later.

"All ProRes codecs support any frame size" is a verbatim quote from the document you linked to. BMD was capable of supporting 6K ProRes when the BMPCC6K released, but they chose not to.

It was a technical limitation.

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProRes

That’s not true. Even your link quotes for example 8k.

Apple says:

All Apple ProRes codecs support all frame sizes (including SD, HD, 2K, 4K, and 5K) at full resolution. The data rates vary based on codec type, image content, frame size, and frame rate.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102207

Basically ProRes supports any resolution divisible by 2.

Ursa Mini 4.6k for example is able to record ProRes in 4608 x 2592 px.
Some DJIs drones have been able to record 6k ProRes, too.

As you can see in the quote you posted 6k wasn't listed. At the time of the release of the Pocket 6K, it wasn't supported.
It supported 8k but it didn't support 6k until years later.

https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/doc ... ProRes.pdf

I had a similar discussion with someone here on this forum in 2015 when I asked Blackmagic for 2.4K ProRes support on the first BMCC. That guy insisted it’s not possible because ProRes does only support standard resolutions like SD, HD, and UHD. Despite the Whitepaper back then saying ProRes does support all frame sizes. Then came out the UM46k with 4.6k and Arri Alex also had odd frame sizes for ProRes…

I had a similar discussion with someone here on this forum in 2015 when I asked Blackmagic for 2.4K ProRes support on the first BMCC. That guy insisted it’s not possible because ProRes does only support standard resolutions like SD, HD, and UHD. Despite the Whitepaper back then saying ProRes does support all frame sizes. Then came out the UM46k with 4.6k and Arri Alex also had odd frame sizes for ProRes…

Let me reword it: It was technically feasible, but not achievable on the Pocket due to the lack of codec support at the time. Just think about it—if it were possible, there wouldn't have been a reason to crop the sensor to 4K.

Let me reword it: It was technically feasible, but not achievable on the Pocket due to the lack of codec support at the time. Just think about it—if it were possible, there wouldn't have been a reason to crop the sensor to 4K.

Sorry, but what are you talking about? ProRes was back then and now capable of recording 6k. ProRes was not the issue here - that is a fact. Your logic does not make any sense.

And the PCC6k is capable of recording UHD ProRes without sensor crop, and DCI 4k just uses a 5.7k window.

But every hardware encoder has to be certified by Apple (that was stated by John Brawley). What is likely is that after BMDs ProRes hardware encoder part for the UM46k got certified, they used that for every camera after the UM46k. As the PCC6k was the first one with a higher resolution than the UM46k, BMD would have had to re-certify for 6k ProRes encoding. And they didn't do that because BRAW was already established and better suited for those high resolutions.

So you're saying it was a technical limitation of the Pocket 6k..... Which is what I originally said.

So you're saying it was a technical limitation of the Pocket 6k..... Which is what I originally said.

No you didn't. Why would you even try to claim this when people can scroll up and see that you actually said? To quote, verbatim:

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

Which is untrue. ProRes does and did support—and I quote again—"Any frame size..."

ProRes has been enabled on the Pocket line since day one. I don't know what every one is saying regarding the Pocket line. It's the BMCC6K (Full Frame) that does not have ProRes recording.

I've owned the Pocket 6K and Pocket 6K Pro. I have used the Pocket 4K as well. They all have ProRes. I can even pull up the Pocket 6K Pro right now and enable ProRes. They all have had ProRes recording capabilities.

However, if we are discussing the Full Frame Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K then that does not have ProRes. And, I think that that has got to do with licensing. I think Blackmagic doesn't want to license ProRes from Apple for these cameras because it adds to the cost of the camera. Blackmagic RAW is perfect for their cameras and thus they keep to that format only.

I do understand the desire for ProRes because it's more compressed and creates smaller file sizes. And yet, Blackmagic RAW has proven to be more efficient with smaller file sizes compared to the highest quality ProRes options.

10-Bit ProRes 422 HQ 3840x2160 would get 94-minutes in 512 GB. The URSA Cine 12K in 16x9 4K (4096x2304) 4:1 will get 96-minutes. That's higher resolution, higher bit depth, and no chroma-subsampling and still getting more recording time with BRAW. Way more efficient.

Now once you start going to more compressed options of ProRes you do have longer record times at smaller file sizes. The best you'll get with 16x9 4K 6:1 BRAW is 144-minutes in 512 GB. UHD ProRes 422 will get you 142-minutes in 512 GB, and UHD ProRes 422 LT will get you in 203-minutes 512 GB. That makes a significant difference. UHD ProRes 422 Proxy

Now, if we are talking about shooting 6K resolution in ProRes then my question would be why? It's not at all as efficient as Blackmagic RAW. Blackmagic RAW is better in every way than ProRes in that instance; higher bit depth and no chroma-subsampling. I doubt you'll see any real benefits from ProRes in 6K resolution until you hit ProRes Proxy quality, which defeats the purpose entirely of getting 6K resolution. You're better off shooting Blackmagic RAW.

Thus I think that this is a practicality rationale for not enabling higher resolution ProRes in the Pocket line. With the URSA Mini Pro G2 I could do 4.6K ProRes and yet, I never used it. I always chose Blackmagic RAW. When I had the original URSA Mini 4.6K UHD ProRes 422 HQ was more viable compared to CinemaDNG, but even then I wouldn't bother going to UHD ProRes 444 as 4.6K CinemaDNG 4:1 was a better option. I most often chose ProRes 444 when shooting HD because I could get 63-minutes in 128 GB.

At this point I think ProRes is no longer worth while in these cinema cameras. Not unless you're needing UHD ProRes LT or UHD ProRes Proxy where you do get longer record times. The Sony X-AVC codec in the Sony cameras with IntraFrame option sits between ProRes LT and ProRes Proxy in terms of data rate compression. That's one of the things that make those cameras so appealing to creators trying to stretch the most record times out of their lower capacity media cards. You also have the LongGOP options in those Sony cameras.

I have a feeling that we'll only see ProRes in the Blackmagic Broadcast camera moving forward. And, they will only need to provide UHD ProRes options. Maybe 8K ProRes at most if Broadcast moves to 8K. But at that point Blackmagic RAW still remains more efficient in so many ways.

However, if we are discussing the Full Frame Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K...

No one is discussing that.

So you're saying it was a technical limitation of the Pocket 6k..... Which is what I originally said.

No you didn't. Why would you even try to claim this when people can scroll up and see that you actually said? To quote, verbatim:

ProRes didn't support 6k at the time of release.

Which is untrue. ProRes does and did support—and I quote again—"Any frame size..."

Were their 6k cameras with ProRes 6k when the camera came out? I'll wait for your answer.

However, if we are discussing the Full Frame Blackmagic Cinema Camera 6K...

No one is discussing that.

Ok, I think that is where some of my confusion came from. For some reason I thought this was pertaining to why no ProRes in the BMCC6K.

This is primarily about 6K Resolution in the Pocket 6K line. Well, what I said above about the data rates stands the same. BRAW is more efficient overall than ProRes in that regard. Even comparing the 4K 16x9 from the UC12K to UHD ProRes compressions. You only see benefits in smaller file sizes at LT and Proxy level of ProRes, but those codec options still don't provide any benefits in image quality.

Were their 6k cameras with ProRes 6k when the camera came out? I'll wait for your answer.

Shaheed, maybe you should sit down because I'm gonna share a pretty mind blowing secret with you: just because something is possible doesn't mean that people are going to do it. Earth shattering, I know.

Seriously though, ProRes has supported arbitrary resolutions since it was released in 2007. If a camera tops out at 4K, it's not because it isn't possible to implement a resolution higher than that; it just wasn't something the manufacturer wanted to implement. Not sure how much clearer it can get. If you're desperate to be proven wrong about this I could probably pull my old PowerMac G5 out of cold storage and throw Final Cut Suite on it and export some 6K video but, honestly, I'm not even sure that'd be enough to convince ya.

I know a lot of people want ProRes for smaller file sizes. And, I get it. Clients don't often need BRAW big files. It seems this is the direction that Blackmagic no longer wants to go in. So, they have changed strategy.

I don't get it, because ProRes is bigger than raw at any given resolution.

I did a test once, comparing 8K Redcode at 8:1 with 4K ProRes 422 and files were approximately the same size.

This is to be expected, since Redcode, much like Braw, are designed to be space efficient at the expensive being more compute heavy than ProRes, which is the other way around, and the raw codecs are compressing data before the de-Bayering stage, which means they're starting with 1/3 the data (approximately), so they have an inherent space advantage.

"All ProRes codecs support any frame size" is a verbatim quote from the document you linked to. BMD was capable of supporting 6K ProRes when the BMPCC6K released, but they chose not to.

Maybe the required data rate was too high for the Pocket 6K?

10-Bit ProRes 422 HQ 3840x2160 would get 94-minutes in 512 GB. The URSA Cine 12K in 16x9 4K (4096x2304) 4:1 will get 96-minutes. That's higher resolution, higher bit depth, and no chroma-subsampling and still getting more recording time with BRAW. Way more efficient.

I agree with this... because in my experience Braw is every bit as good a codec as Redcode.

At this point I think ProRes is no longer worth while in these cinema cameras.

Especially with the in-sensor scaling that obviates the need to window the sensor for lower resolution than open gate.

But at that point Blackmagic RAW still remains more efficient in so many ways.

John Brawley pointed out early on that without Braw the 12K wouldn't even be feasible, at least not at a reasonable price point. The data rate in 12K is already insane, just imaging what it would be like in a low-compression ratio codec like ProRes, let alone something truly ridiculous like CinemaDNG.

Were their 6k cameras with ProRes 6k when the camera came out? I'll wait for your answer.

Shaheed, maybe you should sit down because I'm gonna share a pretty mind blowing secret with you: just because something is possible doesn't mean that people are going to do it. Earth shattering, I know.

If the camera does not support it then it's a technical limitation.

Dude stop replying to me. Weirdo.