Considerations for 60 fps recording

I’ve thought about moving to 60 fps recording for the music festival this weekend. Normally I’d shoot 30 fps. The goal would be a better quality as I would then deliver 60 fps to the client.

I’m wondering if there are factors that I may not be giving due consideration to using twice the frame rate.

Storage will double in size so I need to verify my storage medium and my RAID can manage it.

The BMPCC4K can use approved SSDs for storage, but I’ll test anyway this week. The UM4.6K must use CFast2 cards which I’ll test.

Exposures will require twice the light either by using a 360 degree shutter or higher ISO. If I adjust the ISO on the BMPCC4K, I’ll likely be good, but exceeding my standard ISO on the UM4.6K is not an option.

Noise reduction and video deliverable rendering will take a minimum of twice as long to run.

I’ll be uploading deliverables to a client account on YouTube as well as my Vimeo account.

Are there other issues I should think about?

Do you think this will be worthwhile or more pain than it’s worth? The client isn’t asking for this change.

I have always shot at 59.94fps or of course fields per sec for interlace. I like the smoother motion. I normally use 1/100 shutter so not really classic 180 angle. I also like that this is easy to go to interlaced for DVD or 1920x1080 Bluray. For the stuff I do I use h265 10 bit on my GH6 but h264 10 bit on the GH5S.

I have always shot at 59.94fps or of course fields per sec for interlace. I like the smoother motion. I normally use 1/100 shutter...

Thanks for your reply. My thinking about motion in a music video is that playing the instruments will have an improved appearance. Given the rapid movements required for music such as stringed instruments, I know at 30 fps, I’m only recording the illusion of playing the instruments. Even 60 frames isn’t enough really, but I’m hoping it’s notably an improvement capturing motion.

I agree for film I can see the value in creating illusion but for an event I like to get as close to real as is possible. Also agree that for the live feel in 4K 60 is likely not fast enough. Clear to me when I shoot dance that 60 is not fast enough. Unfortunately that is what the main playback is set at for us.

BMPCC4K
Some surprises in testing my media in the BMPCC4K recording BRAW Q3. The original Wise CFast2 256 GB cards I bought for the UM4.6K 9 years ago, will not record 4K DCI 60 fps. I thought they would be fine.

The Wise CFast2 1 TB card recorded for a few minutes and then it also failed at 60 fps.

The Wise SDXC 128 GB card for the BMPCC4K records fine at 4K DCI 60 fps. I thought it might fail.

The Wise SSD 1 TB recorded fine. The Samsung T7 Shield 2 TB records fine.

UM4.6K
Another surprise testing the CFast2 media cards in the UM4.6K recording 4K DCI CinemaDNG 3:1 compression. The Wise CFast2 1 TB card records fine after failing BRAW Q3 in the BMPCC4K.

The Wise CFast 2 240 GB card fails 4K DCI. However at 2K 16:9, it passes. Since I use the UM4.6K with the B4 mount, 2K recording is all I need.

... Clear to me when I shoot dance that 60 is not fast enough. Unfortunately that is what the main playback is set at for us.

Yes, I’m sure the client’s intended audience will have the same 60 fps playback on their screens.

Rick,
One thing to consider is to go at 4K UHD instead of DCI as this will use less bit-rate/storage and be the aspect ratio of a TV.

Another recommendation would be to not use a 360 shutter, but still consider a slower shutter as mentioned earlier. For example: for 60fps, instead of 1/120 sec use 1/100 sec, or 1/90, or even 1/80. I have filmed a lot of wild life at 60 fps, 120 fps and 240 fps (with UMP12K), not always for slow motion. I also have an older UMP4.6K that I used a lot with Angelbird cards and no issues. However, I would recommend to use the native 800 ISO and watch out for fixed pattern noise. Lighting will be a big consideration with this camera... do not skimp... best to use a fast lens.

(Note: when doing HDR, which for me is most the time now, at higher frame rates I will typically use a shutter angle slightly larger than 180. I find this to help with the motion blur in a HDR shot.)

Another thought is to consider the speed and motion blur carefully. True the faster the closer to reality (whatever that is) and the slower more dreamy... however, think of the music and what cadence and rhythm it has and how much motion blur would feel appropriate... this can differ for different situations. I disagree that reality will make the playing of instruments look better.

Thanks, Jeffrey. Interesting remarks on the shutter speed and the limits of HFR realism. I’m thinking a 270 degree shutter angle which would equate to 1/90th sec. Staying at ISO 800 then.

Me too the only thing I will double check should be ursa exposure to avoid fpn.
You just had done the other check points of my quality / test list.


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Everything is just linearly double as you say.

But you're gonna run into media writespeed issues....

These writespeed issues are not simple.
If you do try to test it, make sure to point the camera at a high-detail scene (Like vegetation in focus) to max out the bit rate.
Still, once you're in the field, you will likely get more dropped frames than at home.

I suggest you prepare a fall-back recording option, so you know what to change once these issues set in.

Welcome to the joy that is finding working media for pocket cams

Okay, today I’ve shot 60 fps UHD for my garden trees and flowers that are detailed and in motion (gentle breeze).

BRAW Q3 BMPCC4K
SDXC 128 GB card (that was good indoors) had dropped frames recording UHD 60 fps outdoors in garden.

Wise Portable SSD 1 TB is good UHD.
The Samsung T7 Shield 2 TB is good.

Estimated recording 8 hours spread over 2 days so no capacity concerns.

CinemaDNG 3:1 UM4.6K
Wise CFast2 1 TB is good for UHD.
Wise CFast2 240 GB fails for UHD; but good for 2K 16:9 which is how I shoot with the B4 zoom.

Estimated recording 4 hours 50 minutes over 2 days which can be tight, but I find actual recording time exceeds initial camera estimates.

After the first day shooting if capacity looks like it will be a concern, I can offload the footage overnight and reformat the cards. Concerts are usually less than 2.5 hours in a day but offloading the CFast2 cards is a prudent choice.

Whoa! I thought I should test audio recording at 60 fps and setting Tentacle Sync to 60 fps. To my surprise, both the MixPre-6 II and the Tentacle Sync have a maximum setting of 30 fps.

I understand the frame rate in the MixPre-6 II isn’t ‘real’ i.e. it’s not baked into the audio recording. Should I record with a sample rate of 96KHz to ensure the audio tracks will be the same physical length on the Resolve Timeline? Or do I stay with the normal 48KGz audio and the audio duration will match the video duration at 60 fps?

I think the bigger issue is the Tentacle Sync maximum frame rate being 30 fps since this is going to affect ‘real’ timecode recorded with the video tracks. I’m using firmware version 9.02.

Should I simply sync the audio in Resolve by waveform rather than Timecode? But the length on the Resolve Timeline needs to match the length of the video for that to work.

Is there anyone who is using either the MixPre series II audio recorder or the Tentacle Sync while recording synced video in the camera at 60 fps?

Is anyone recording video with a project frame rate of 60 fps with external devices? Which device do you use for an audio recorder or timecode generator?

If I was only using one camera without external audio or timecode, everything will work at 60 fps, but I’m doing a two camera shoot with house left/right audio plus two of my own XLR mics for left/right ambience. I could feed the house audio into the UM4.6K as that camera has two XLR ports. But the BMPCC4K only has one mini-XLR port so not ideal; I might have to leave my own mics at home and use the BMPCX4K camera’s audio channels.

Recommendations ASAP or I’ll need to revert back to recording video 30 fps. I certainly need to be cautious and get good results for this music festival.

I’m going to reference this post this in the DaVinci Resolve and the Post Production forum since time is short as my shoot begins today.

Rick,

I have the Sound Devices MixPre-6 version 1.
I normally record the sound separate with also scratch on the camera.

Note that in Wave Agent (SoundDevices) the frame rate can be set. However it does not go above 30 fps. I set it to 30 fps (or 24 fps when shooting at that.) Yep, even though shooting at 60 fps I set the MixPre-6 to 30 fps. It is only metadata.

Now, when I have shot at 60 fps on camera and recorded separately with MixPre-6 (at the 30 fps) when I put these files onto the 60 fps timeline (braw and wav) the sound is perfectly timed. Somehow when placing a wav file onto a timeline Resolve adjusts it to playback at the correct speed. It just works. Try it yourself. To check this drag that same wav file from media pool to a 24 fps timeline and the sound will play the same as that with the 60 fps timeline. (Note: this does not work the same for video files as they will get a speed change.)

Once on the timeline, tracts can be synced fairly easily by several methods. I usually have a place I marked during recording (could be a clap) and rough line up to those places and then zoom in and fine adjust. Keep in mind that Fairlight can adjust as fine as the sample rate.

Another thing I have done is to take the output of the MixPre-6 and send it into one of the camera channels and record the camera in mono on the other channel to also get a scratch from the MixPre-6. I do not use any of the scratch other than for sync. >>> This can be helpful when there is a delay due to distance between the camera and mic.<<<

So Rick, take a deep breath, relax and try this out.

Edit: giving some more thought: maybe because the MixPre-6 is recording with its internal clock it is synced to that and so then matches whatever time is in the timeline. (accurate to the clock in the MixPre)

Thanks so much, Jeffrey. Yesterday and today are very hectic so I decided to play it safe and go with 30 fps camera recording this weekend at the music festival.

I should have time to do this test and try on another shoot in early July that isn’t critical like the music festival. Looks like MixPre-6 II won’t have any issue.

Perhaps it’s the same fate for the Tentacle Sync timecode generator that I use to jam the MixPre and the cameras. A second is still a second regardless of the number of frames or audio frequency, so I suppose the timecode in Resolve will appear twice as the generated timecode on the video still increments from 0 to 30. That’s fine and easy to see in Resolve.