Waiting (IBC cameras).

Well. Soon we might see if BM is going preannounce a new camera for next year. I hope so (more hope it be delivered tomorrow). But with a lot of this stuff you get just suggesting an improvement, if only somebody would release a mobile phone sensored 8k credit card sized camera, with speedbooster mount for large lens. Just the look on their faces as their ideals come crashing down.


Now, that's something to "dream" about. How come somebody hadn't made a processing switched network that can be programmed to do that with low power?

The Hydrogen One has already be released by RED.

Credit card form factor non phone, 8k.

OK. So, no new BM micro, which is bad news. A new mini is more likely next NAB before a new micro now. This might mean a new micro could be next September, or nab 2021.

The industry has gone slack delaying 8k before they commit to a format change, announcing the 6k as a half way measure to an old Nokia phone sensor. It is insane, they are selling 8k TVs without cameras to sell users, when a low end 8k camera chipset was announced a few years ago. So, no media content format, no camera, and no consumer cheap game or PC system. This is even a worse stuff up then the 4k TV release which was before ultra bluray, or proper HDR, rec2020, or 3D support. This milking of the consumer on rapid upgrade cycles, may back fire, because this time the cart has been put out without horse, wheels, harness or seats. People are going be standing in their carts bare wooden box with their 8k TV's diagonally wedged in up the creek onto the road without a paddle, wondering where to go, and the next upgrade!


Now, let's get real, 8k is about premium so you can't see the difference anymore, and BIG. 65 inch is a little small, unless you are using it as a monitor. We really needed 120 inch options, with smaller 84 and 100 inch options, premium colour, contrast, black levels, and pixels and movement on screen, Dolby 3D like 3D, and some other Xbox like vision detection system, where up market uses say give me, and of course, a new optical media format using more recent technology which goes into terabytes per disk. People have to be convinced to buy, not Conned. There has been a number of anticipated innovations delayed years to stretch out the update cycles and reduce the price up offering upgrades. 6 coloured pixel techniques is an old one, rec2020 coverage above 90%, better black levels with HDR, like dual layer LCDs and filters, and better led systems. Quantum dot colour filters on LCD is another big one. Every year are we expected to upgrade to something new? Well, this time, the always new yearly upgrade cycle might get old and stale, sucking consumer confidence. Selling TV's with a soon to be outdated, and barely nice, HDMI interfaces, was a mistake. Hit the ground running hard with features worth more than a year, but the life of the set, is preferable.

BM has missed out in a big market. An 8k mtf pocket camera with good prosumer video and stills controls for less than $2k is something sellable along side the new 8k TV sets. The 8k camera makes the TV more sellable, and the 8k TV makes the camera more sellable. But that is this year, next year will likely start to see such cameras, blocking entry into retail stores, at which point the first entrant will get the focus, and unless you are a big name brand, you may struggle to get sales next to the big brands.

BMD has acknowledged 8k they have developed many 8k capable devices. But 8k for the masses is not that appealing at least not for the moment, particularly when there is very little content. I think that for the moment it's only an acquisition format for post and VFX. And i.m.o.p. for the moment it's just a carrot hung at the end of a stick.


Ricardo Marty

That is what I mean. There is a lack of delivery, so an 8k camera becomes a part of the reason to buy an 8k TV. It would have been a sizable market compared to cinema sales. If I were a TV manufacturer, and could get 8k cameras cheap enough, I would sell them as a pack in promotional item with the TV. If they buy a $12k set, they Likely would want to show their friends what it can do, which generates more promotion and sales. It is better than getting their friends around to shoe them what a standard definition TV channel looks like on their 8K TV

I predict very poor sales of 8K TV for now, which the industry is also indicating, because they did not establish delivery infrastructure before hand to support it. Because 8k TV was supposed to be this future thing, they have lacked properly doing 8k Monitors, cheaper cameras, pc systems and delivery format before hand.

On a 60-inch screen 8 k is not noticeable, so why buy it. 8k television is the new 3d television.
Just keep it for post for those that can use it. BTW I just noticed that the Braw computer speed test includes 8k for testing CPU and GPU.

Ricardo Marty

I think that the regular splash at NAB is losing its shine. In the beginning the NAB convention would be the place to announce these disruptive products and dealers and attendees would rush to the BMD booth to get a good seat for the presentation or even to order whatever BMD was announcing.

Fast forward to the present. Products are increasingly being announced at other conventions perhaps more suited to a target audience. The cameras are getting announced well before NAB. That new Video Assist 12G and compact ATEM switcher shown at IBC perhaps could have been announced at NAB, but is perfect at IBC.

Other vendors also are delivering products earlier to snare a prospective customer and get more media attention for the week or so they might be the only new toy to play with. At NAB there’s so much more attention grabbing things that inevitably your new toaster doesn’t have a review published until weeks after NAB.

I guess I’m saying announcements and availability aren’t following the same schedule they did and 8K will appear when it makes sense in the release roadmap and product prototypes are ready. Lots of groundwork has been laid so understandable that this might be sooner than later.

To me the issue may not be the actual sensors which can have very tiny photosites, but all the processing that needs to be done in camera (including writing to the media) and in post when those compressed bits become 32bit values and quickly fill up the GPU tank. The whole ecosystem of hardware and software has to be ready for 8K. Then you push the sensors.

Until then the majority will be content with 4K/UHD sensors that make great 2K/HD deliverables and a few 8K/6K sensors that deliver great 4K. My life may be short and it’s hard to imagine I could cope with 8K at home. I still remember the small fuzzy screens we watched when television was introduced in Canada and the first thing I watched was the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in June 1953. But it was riveting in black and white with only a few hundred lines of resolution in a screen about the size of a large frying pan. The Queen is still with us, but just “look what they’ve done to my song, Ma!”


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The Ursa Broadcast was announced at NAB, and Rick, announcing new products before hand, ensures the new porducts wold be at least out and on display as production models at NAB...
Cheers

It’s a great trend if they continue shipping in a timely manner. If I hadn’t just spent my funds on the EW 500 G4 Boom and LINE Audio Design CM-4 mics, I’d order the Video Assist 12G 7” today!


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I am thinking about getting one Rick.
Cheers

Ricardo, you aren't meant to see 8k pixels, if people can, they are sitting too close. People report a more pleasing experience in blind tests. The sub consciousness is what see's things we don't recognise.


Rick, the eco system has been there for ages. The original nvidia 8k GPU display specification push was 2007, and much needed for serious applications. We could pretty much have had 8k displays and cameras then. But the industry put the breaks on it. They didn't want that short cut past 4k, hdr, rec2020 3D money pits. Your money. Even though I advocate for live workflows, like years ago, there is nothing written in stone that post has to be live. It can render out 1fps if you really need it. I remember the original last starfighter took an enormous amount of time per frame on a rendering farm. But that's life.

We face a reality where chips smaller than postage stamps can compress 4k, yet somehow like supernaturally people contort that 8k is just too much on chips with hundreds of times the processing power. I wish somebody would just process 1Gp video on some fastest system and get it over and done with. To stop people complaining about this or that. You can't have a good discussion about the future with people just jumping in how impossible the doable is. I'm glad that 8k is here, that's the end of it for normal consumer delivery. No longer do we have to endure a constant stream of abuse of logic about 720p, 1080p, 4k, 8k. 16k+ etc might come, but that's more to do with extrawide viewing angles, post framing, special purposes, and Bayer use. 8k on a foveon is about as far as you need to go in normal delivery.
Though 16k foveon would iron out some remaining minor artifact issues. I think that can be processed out anyway (but that is another thing experts want to debate).

It's a shame that BM doesn't do a cheap monochrome micro head camera. That would be interesting.

It's a shame that BM doesn't do a cheap monochrome micro head camera. That would be interesting.

Yeah for sure.. Because there is a VERY HUGE market that is interested in monochrome cameras..

BMD builds cameras for the masses, Development is expensive, and the only way to make anything affordable is to sell 100.000+ of them..

If you want a monochrome sensor that bad.. Go to RED.. And yes that one is freaking expensive.. Because RED does not sell lot of numbers....

That's a camera you hire, you don't own it. Great pictures, BTW.

I suggested we do black and white for the feature we started. The lead actor liked the black and white I gave him for his show reel. But the producer wants colour. At the end of the day, I’ll likely do a quick render in black and white for ‘fun’ as well as the colour version.

My rationale was the movie is set in 1919 and I thought black and white would help the verisimilitude of the dark story.


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Whoo! Daniel. The hostility. People ask for monochrome. Although not my thing, I can see a use for it. But, if they use an existing line with the same sensor but without colour filter?

Rick, I support your artistic vision, the producer however probably supports his financial returns. It's a shame. I had a series of romantic genre films I wanted to do, in different monochrome themes. It needs a modern famous film to break through and lead the way before the system etc will accept it.

The Last Picture Show, The Elephant Man, The Artist, The Man Who Wasn’t There, and sadly the unreleased Love You Daddy with Chloë Grace Moretz among many others.

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Yes, the artist Rick I forgot that. I'm talking current, within the last 2 years, where the system can dream it's possible to make a mint, so to speak, on monochrome. Schindler's List is the sort of ground breaking level, otherwise you are just Woody Allen without the fame to carry it through. Maybe being in New York helped his films too. Just not that omf in it. If he had done a film with a New Yorker like Deborah Harry, that would have really been something to see in black and white. Good chemistry contrast, with potential depth depending in scripting.

Real contrasting energy to Woody, as would Barbra Streisand also have been, but in colour instead.

The recent ones include The Party (2017), I Love You Daddy (2017 unreleased), Roma 2018). Many films include black and white portions or are set many years ago. It does seem to take some courage to go black and white.


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I think the problem is because it's black and white, the most uninteresting and dated. But I think a film done to suite the medium is different, the way to go.

If you want a monochrome sensor that bad.. Go to RED.. And yes that one is freaking expensive.. Because RED does not sell lot of numbers....

And even Red's volumes for cameras like its $30,000 Ranger dwarf its monochrome camera sales...

The recent ones include The Party (2017), I Love You Daddy (2017 unreleased), Roma 2018). Many films include black and white portions or are set many years ago. It does seem to take some courage to go black and white.

It also requires a pretty strong artistic vision. Part of why it's so rare is that we're so used to color that it's a default -- and frankly because it's pretty.

I did have one director who'd originally asked me to shoot her film in black and white change her mind as soon as she saw the dailies, just as I was loading up the footage in Resolve to convert it to black and white.

And I had a director recently decide that he wanted to shoot his film in black and white, so I knocked the saturation down in the CDL settings and filmed that way... all of our previews were in black and white, and the dailies render in black and white even though we captured them in raw (metadata is cool), and the intermediates are black and white.

I wasn't repeating that mistake!

Though part of the reason for the first one was that the camera I had didn't have an on-board look option, but my current one does, so I was taking advantage.

It does change the way that people perceive the film, and frankly I think more folks should try it.

On a 60-inch screen 8 k is not noticeable, so why buy it. 8k television is the new 3d television.
Just keep it for post for those that can use it. BTW I just noticed that the Braw computer speed test includes 8k for testing CPU and GPU.

Ricardo Marty

I have a 75" 4K 10bit screen and it's not noticeable. Looks exactly like 4K. However, when delivering 4K as 1080p and viewing on a 1080 tv, it does looks better.

Why is the Micro 4K camera the same price as the Pocket 4k? I think the Micro should be under $700.

Why is the Micro 4K camera the same price as the Pocket 4k? I think the Micro should be under $700.

You're referring to the Micro Studio 4K camera, right? For a moment I thought you meant BMD had just released a new Micro cinema camera.

The Micro Studio 4K is an older camera, released in 2016 I think, a couple of years before the Pocket 4K, so the pricing was set well before that of the Pocket 4K, and it's really for a different market. The Studio camera is pretty limited in that it can't record internally.

Why is the Micro 4K camera the same price as the Pocket 4k? I think the Micro should be under $700.

You're referring to the Micro Studio 4K camera, right? For a moment I thought you meant BMD had just released a new Micro cinema camera.

The Micro Studio 4K is an older camera, released in 2016 I think, a couple of years before the Pocket 4K, so the pricing was set well before that of the Pocket 4K, and it's really for a different market. The Studio camera is pretty limited in that it can't record internally.

Exactly why it should be less money. I'd like one to put on a drone or on cars, so I don't have to worry about my Pocket 4k. Under $500 would be ideal.

Exactly why it should be less money. I'd like one to put on a drone or on cars, so I don't have to worry about my Pocket 4k. Under $500 would be ideal.

The image quality is likely to be fairly different, though; these are quite different sensors. I think the sensor in the Studio 4K is the same one used in the Ursa Broadcast. And you'd have to rig it up with an external recorder that can record 4K.

The only price drop I ever remember seeing from BMD was the temporary price drop (to $500) on the original Pocket Cinema Camera. Instead of dropping the price on the Micro Studio, it's more likely that they'll come out with a new one that shoots 6K or 8K. Not sure they'll do another Micro Studio, but a Micro Cinema Camera at 6K or 8K would probably sell well.

Exactly why it should be less money. I'd like one to put on a drone or on cars, so I don't have to worry about my Pocket 4k. Under $500 would be ideal.

Not sure they'll do another Micro Studio, but a Micro Cinema Camera at 6K or 8K would probably sell well.

It may sell well, but it's completely unnecessary. 4k is just fine.

It may sell well, but it's completely unnecessary. 4k is just fine.

Oh, I agree -- and I meant to say micros could come in 4K, 6K, and maybe 8K. It would make sense for BMD to offer 4K and 6K versions of the Micro Cinema Camera to complement the Pocket 4K and 6K, and since it seems they're planning ahead for 8K (based on it being an option in the BMD speed test app) there could be one of those eventually.

As for cost, though, the original Micro Cinema Camera was priced around the same as the original Pocket. It had more features, though (higher framerate, for one thing) so could have been justified on those grounds. If this pattern holds I doubt we'd see a new micro camera for half the price of the Pocket.

Now that the Pocket 6K is out, quite a few of the "more K must mean better" crowd are selling their Pocket 4K cameras and going for the 6K; I haven't seen any amazing deals on used ones yet but you might be able to get a second Pocket 4K for considerably less than you paid for yours new.

Now that the Pocket 6K is out, quite a few of the "more K must mean better" crowd are selling their Pocket 4K cameras and going for the 6K; I haven't seen any amazing deals on used ones yet but you might be able to get a second Pocket 4K for considerably less than you paid for yours new.

You're probably right... I'll keep an eye out. I feel sorry for these people that feel like they have to have the latest and greatest, buying and selling cameras every year.... Like you said though, I can probably get a great deal and the camera will be "like new" .

I've been looking our for an incredible deal on the pocket, guess it's too late. But pocket 4k?

Don't worry, those people in the know, know 6k delivers, and 8k will be a bit better, and industry is laying out benefits for downscaling to 32k. Things are not as simple as it looks.

If you view it on a little low resolution screen from far away, of course it's going look maxed out, even stars look like single pixels. People's eyesight is another issue, even 20/20 is only acceptable vision, individuals xsn see a lot finer than that. Who do you film for, yourself, or an fuller audience? Now, I don't rely care if there is say 1 in a million people can see 16k etc, the top for the normal population is 8k on a good field of view, but 4k is close enough for most things, and 8k downscaling enhances that.