Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

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Alexrocks1253

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Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostThu Dec 31, 2020 7:19 am

What setting within camera raw would you recommend? Would I need to change my grading style much for Gen 5 or would I only need to increase the levels to which I push gain and lift more?
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostThu Dec 31, 2020 6:44 pm

I’d simply recommend Colour Science Gen 5 unless you felt it didn’t handle a scene’s lighting properly. You can easily alternate between the two in Resolve’s Camera raw tab to see what you’re getting with Gen 5. If your scene has some extreme ranges in colour such as those bright saturated LED lights, Gen 5 is going to be the better choice. If the scene is fairly muted in its range, it may not matter but that’s another reason to use the latest Gen 5.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostMon Feb 22, 2021 3:04 pm

rick.lang wrote:I’d simply recommend Colour Science Gen 5 unless you felt it didn’t handle a scene’s lighting properly. You can easily alternate between the two in Resolve’s Camera raw tab to see what you’re getting with Gen 5. If your scene has some extreme ranges in colour such as those bright saturated LED lights, Gen 5 is going to be the better choice. If the scene is fairly muted in its range, it may not matter but that’s another reason to use the latest Gen 5.


Good stuff! :)
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostMon Feb 22, 2021 3:23 pm

To over simplify: Gen 5 offers a different curve and it aggressively limits very saturated colors.

The curve is quite a bit flatter, but since the Gen 4 curve already captured all of the dynamic range the P4K/6K sensor can deliver, I haven't found a big advantage to it.

I personally don't like how Gen 5 clamps saturated colors, nor the lack of control in how it does so, but I can certainly understand the appeal of having it done for you. It's safer. (And I think, but not sure, recent versions of Resolve allow you to turn this off...can't recall.)

All that said, Gen 5 is the new standard, so assuming you don't have a workflow that depends on Gen 4, it's probably best to get used to it.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostMon Feb 22, 2021 3:33 pm

I will also add that because contrast and saturation are intrinsically connected, the different curve *can* impact color, especially if you just tweaks sliders rather than use a predictable transform to get into your target color space. If you use any of Resolves different ways to do this, the difference is basically negated, as it is if you use a good technical out.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 12:25 am

joe12south wrote:The curve is quite a bit flatter, but since the Gen 4 curve already captured all of the dynamic range the P4K/6K sensor can deliver, I haven't found a big advantage to it.

One advantage is its flat enough for us to use as a single curve for a wide range of ISO's without clipping for all cameras. If you compare Gen 4 at say ISO200 versus ISO800 on a single camera its a very noticeable contrast change, so even grading footage from the same camera could sometimes require more work just because of this contrast change, and then grading footage from our various cameras together was even more work. Now its all the same starting point no matter which camera or ISO and would also make using a "show LUT" etc easier since it reduces the tweaking needed in these cases. Being flatter also means the highlight rolloff may be more pleasing with less work especially for some users grading via wheels on a panel etc.

It's worth noting as well that Gen 5 Video is very different to Gen 4 and now uses Rec.709 primaries and has much more highlight roll off and dynamic range, Gen 5 Extended Video is also improved over Gen 4 (but still doesn't use 709 primaries and is intended more for "pleasing" than "accurate")

joe12south wrote:And I think, but not sure, recent versions of Resolve allow you to turn this off...can't recall.

Gamut compression became a toggle in Oct last year which was in Resolve 16.3 and all 9 releases of Resolve 17 and Resolve 17.1 so far.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 12:54 am

CaptainHook wrote:
joe12south wrote:The curve is quite a bit flatter, but since the Gen 4 curve already captured all of the dynamic range the P4K/6K sensor can deliver, I haven't found a big advantage to it.

One advantage is its flat enough for us to use as a single curve for a wide range of ISO's without clipping for all cameras. If you compare Gen 4 at say ISO200 versus ISO800 on a single camera its a very noticeable contrast change, so even grading footage from the same camera could sometimes require more work just because of this contrast change, and then grading footage from our various cameras together was even more work. Now its all the same starting point no matter which camera or ISO and would also make using a "show LUT" etc easier since it reduces the tweaking needed in these cases. Being flatter also means the highlight rolloff may be more pleasing with less work especially for some users grading via wheels on a panel etc.

It's worth noting as well that Gen 5 Video is very different to Gen 4 and now uses Rec.709 primaries and has much more highlight roll off and dynamic range, Gen 5 Extended Video is also improved over Gen 4 (but still doesn't use 709 primaries and is intended more for "pleasing" than "accurate")

joe12south wrote:And I think, but not sure, recent versions of Resolve allow you to turn this off...can't recall.

Gamut compression became a toggle in Oct last year which was in Resolve 16.3 and all 9 releases of Resolve 17 and Resolve 17.1 so far.

Thanks for chiming in with those details, CH! I guess I've just got to give in an re-do my workflow for the Gen 5 curve. ;)

Dare I ask why Extended Video didn't also move to REC709 primaries? Would eliminate so many complaints about brownish greens, etc.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 1:46 am

joe12south wrote:Dare I ask why Extended Video didn't also move to REC709 primaries?

Gen 5 Video now serves that need pretty well I think. It also has 6 stops over middle grey with another 3 stops in specular highlights (Rec.709 is more like ~9 stops in TOTAL). To accomodate this rolloff middle grey is shifted very slightly down from the standard 40.9% for Rec.709 to 40.34%

Ext Video is meant to be subjectively pleasing as the placing of the primaries is closer to what you might get from some print film with a focus on skin (forums/fb groups feedback is always skewed in one direction and most of the time doesn't actually reflect the majority of direct feedback we get). But it still also has enough 'range' to be easily graded and shift colours where you like - but more than that the gamma curve is customisable - you could also change the gamut to 709 (or anything) and adjust the saturation or curve in the RAW tab how you like.

So really I recommend Gen 5 Video for users who want a more 'accurate' starting point and/or may not be so confident with grading. Gen 5 Ext Vid I recommend for users who prefer the skin rendering but also like to customise the RAW gamma settings and grade on top etc.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 2:24 am

CaptainHook wrote:
joe12south wrote:Dare I ask why Extended Video didn't also move to REC709 primaries?

Gen 5 Video now serves that need pretty well I think. It also has 6 stops over middle grey with another 3 stops in specular highlights (Rec.709 is more like ~9 stops in TOTAL). To accomodate this rolloff middle grey is shifted very slightly down from the standard 40.9% for Rec.709 to 40.34%

Ext Video is meant to be subjectively pleasing as the placing of the primaries is closer to what you might get from some print film with a focus on skin (forums/fb groups feedback is always skewed in one direction and most of the time doesn't actually reflect the majority of direct feedback we get). But it still also has enough 'range' to be easily graded and shift colours where you like - but more than that the gamma curve is customisable - you could also change the gamut to 709 (or anything) and adjust the saturation or curve in the RAW tab how you like.

So really I recommend Gen 5 Video for users who want a more 'accurate' starting point and/or may not be so confident with grading. Gen 5 Ext Vid I recommend for users who prefer the skin rendering but also like to customise the RAW gamma settings and grade on top etc.

Hook, since Gen 5 is coming natively to the OG Pocket 6K could that mean that Gen 5 could come natively to the UMP G2 also? Would love to skip the step of having to tell Resolve to put my G2 into Gen 5 color science to take advantage of it. It really is awesome and enhances the G2. But would love for it to be native.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 1:43 pm

CaptainHook wrote:
joe12south wrote:Dare I ask why Extended Video didn't also move to REC709 primaries?

Gen 5 Video now serves that need pretty well I think. It also has 6 stops over middle grey with another 3 stops in specular highlights (Rec.709 is more like ~9 stops in TOTAL). To accomodate this rolloff middle grey is shifted very slightly down from the standard 40.9% for Rec.709 to 40.34%

Ext Video is meant to be subjectively pleasing as the placing of the primaries is closer to what you might get from some print film with a focus on skin (forums/fb groups feedback is always skewed in one direction and most of the time doesn't actually reflect the majority of direct feedback we get). But it still also has enough 'range' to be easily graded and shift colours where you like - but more than that the gamma curve is customisable - you could also change the gamut to 709 (or anything) and adjust the saturation or curve in the RAW tab how you like.

So really I recommend Gen 5 Video for users who want a more 'accurate' starting point and/or may not be so confident with grading. Gen 5 Ext Vid I recommend for users who prefer the skin rendering but also like to customise the RAW gamma settings and grade on top etc.

Thank you, Captain! Very helpful information. I guess I need to do a part II video. ;)

Is there a reason BMD doesn't simply publish this sort of information officially, in one place, so that we don't have to poke around in the dark and scour forums hoping that you might notice a post and respond? I understand that the primary marketing copy is always gonna be vague and use a lot of exclamation points, but a tech note about Gen 5 in the support section would eliminate a lot of confusion, conjecture, and shut-up blow hards like me.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 2:30 pm

It would be wonderful if Gen 5 information (and Gen 4, for that matter) were presented in an instructional format. Or at least dealt with in the way of the Resolve manual, part reference/part instruction, assuming little prior knowledge and covering all ground.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 3:07 pm

John Paines wrote:It would be wonderful if Gen 5 information (and Gen 4, for that matter) were presented in an instructional format. Or at least dealt with in the way of the Resolve manual, part reference/part instruction, assuming little prior knowledge and covering all ground.

Sometimes I think the company takes its name a little too literally. :D
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 3:31 pm

joe12south wrote:
John Paines wrote:It would be wonderful if Gen 5 information (and Gen 4, for that matter) were presented in an instructional format. Or at least dealt with in the way of the Resolve manual, part reference/part instruction, assuming little prior knowledge and covering all ground.

Sometimes I think the company takes its name a little too literally. :D


If all the info was in one manual, Hook could be out shooting! Definitely want to see more of his stuff.

Nevertheless, Hook et al. has been a great resource for explaining things in greater detail on the forum, this thread included, and to their credit have made big leaps in a relatively short amount of time.

You can see the differences as bump your way through in the decode, with the exception that the naming structure is not intuitive.

So I have to memorize that that "video" will have REC709 primaries and that "extended video" will not. Fuji Provia, Velvia, Astia, while not implying that anyone of them is "accurate" from the name is easier to memorize which you prefer and the look you get from each.

But generally I've been happy to decode REC709 in any one of the cameras at this point and it's more than workable for my needs and I'm sure they can keep using the names without issues.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 5:08 pm

BMD did post a white paper on their wide gamut recently on the Support page. Perhaps something like that could be done for Colour Science Gen 5. But if some of this is black magic (proprietary) I’m fine with the explanations we have been given now. The important thing is that you can go from point A to point B and gen 5 makes it easier and more trustworthy to grade and produce final deliverables. Much appreciate this new behaviour as someone who frequently must contend with supersaturated theatre LED lights.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 5:13 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:So I have to memorize that that "video" will have REC709 primaries and that "extended video" will not.

It makes total sense that "BM Film" must be transformed into the working gamma/gamut. REC709, REC2020, P3, whatever. I don't think anyone expects otherwise.

But the general misunderstanding is that "BM Video" and "BM Extended Video" are intended as quick paths to Standard dynamic range REC709 images. "Video" clips highlights, and "Extended" compresses them for a more film like response.

Based on Captain Hook's description, it sounds like "Extended Video" is more like "BM Film" with a different curve, not "BM Video" with a different curve. That's definitely going to confuse a lot of people – and rightly so IMHO.

Compare with Panasonic's approach:
V-LOG ... proprietary log curve and proprietary color space
STANDARD ... REC709 gamma (bt.1886) hard clipped and REC709 color space
LIKE709 ... REC709 color space with compressed highlights. (Kinda like HLG for SDR. Kinda.)

You drop LIKE709 on a REC709 timeline and green is green. Then you grade to taste, no transform required.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 6:22 pm

Gen 5 Extended Video is a lot more like Gen 5 Video than it is like Film.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 6:56 pm

rick.lang wrote:Gen 5 Extended Video is a lot more like Gen 5 Video than it is like Film.

Which begs the question...why does it need to exist when for those most likely to use it, their starting point is always going to be wrong? If you're going to have to adjust everything manually, why not just use BM Film?
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 8:15 pm

joe12south wrote:
rick.lang wrote:Gen 5 Extended Video is a lot more like Gen 5 Video than it is like Film.

Which begs the question...why does it need to exist when for those most likely to use it, their starting point is always going to be wrong? If you're going to have to adjust everything manually, why not just use BM Film?


It's not wrong. Hook already explained this very clearly.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 8:45 pm

Mark Wyatt wrote:It's not wrong. Hook already explained this very clearly.

We can dance around semantics, but without clear instruction, who would understand that the reason their colors look "off" is because they need to transform color spaces? BM Film color is mapped differently than any output space.

Unless there is documentation I'm not aware of (maybe there is?) the only way to know this is to either happen upon this thread or to discover via trial and error.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 8:59 pm

joe12south wrote:
Mark Wyatt wrote:It's not wrong. Hook already explained this very clearly.

We can dance around semantics, but without clear instruction, who would understand that the reason their colors look "off" is because they need to transform color spaces? BM Film color is mapped differently than any output space.

Unless there is documentation I'm not aware of (maybe there is?) the only way to know this is to either happen upon this thread or to discover via trial and error.


They do not look off (as in extended video) and there is no need to transform color space.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:02 pm

The best indication that communication isn't all it might be is the grading quality (more often, lack of it) of the BMD camera footage which makes it to the web. When post-production techniques once associated with impossibly expensive professional workflows were released at consumer prices -- including free, in the case of Resolve -- education didn't quite catch up.

Basic information about how this CS operates and best post practices -- why not? It's not as if handling this footage is widely successful in the hands of people who buy these cameras.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:12 pm

An example.

G2 & Gen 5 both with Extended Video.

Rec 709 Colour Space:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1380g4v ... sp=sharing

BMD colour space - but with saturation and contrast increased slightly):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-xp7p ... sp=sharing
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:14 pm

joe12south wrote: why does it need to exist when for those most likely to use it, their starting point is always going to be wrong?
The color isn't wrong. It's just not transformed exactly to REC709. ARRI's REC709 transform doesn't adhere strictly to the REC709 spec either, yet a huge number of filmmakers love it. And the reason that they love it is because aesthetic choices were made that specifically deviate from the spec. That's what BMD Extended Video does too, but it seems you don't happen to like the aesthetic.
As long as human eyes + brains are doing the viewing, there is no such thing as an objectively correct image. All that exist are images that are more or less pleasing to the subjective viewer.

I highly recommend watching this presentation by Daniele Siragusano of Baselight, as he explains the complicated non-linear aesthetic choices, many of them trade-offs, that have to be made when transforming scene linear light values from a digital sensor into an image on screen that humans will actually want to view:


I agree that better documentation could be useful.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:37 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:The color isn't wrong. It's just not transformed exactly to REC709. ARRI's REC709 transform doesn't adhere strictly to the REC709 spec either, yet a huge number of filmmakers love it. And the reason that they love it is because aesthetic choices were made that specifically deviate from the spec. That's what BMD Extended Video does too, but it seems you don't happen to like the aesthetic.

Hopefully Captain Hook will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the comparison to ARRI's REC709 transform is apples to apples with BM Extended Video.

If I understood him correctly, "Extended Video" doesn't include a color transform at all. It just leaves the color in the "internal" BM Film color space.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:39 pm

Mark Wyatt wrote:They do not look off (as in extended video) and there is no need to transform color space.

I think Ryobi or Scott's would beg to differ. ;)
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:44 pm

John Paines wrote:The best indication that communication isn't all it might be is the grading quality (more often, lack of it) of the BMD camera footage which makes it to the web. When post-production techniques once associated with impossibly expensive professional workflows were released at consumer prices -- including free, in the case of Resolve -- education didn't quite catch up.

Basic information about how this CS operates and best post practices -- why not? It's not as if handling this footage is widely successful in the hands of people who buy these cameras.

Well said. I would be incredibly happy if clear communication from Blackmagic put my little LUT operation clean out of business and even more dramatically decreased the amount of dingy brown footage on Vimeo and YouTube. :D
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 9:57 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:As long as human eyes + brains are doing the viewing, there is no such thing as an objectively correct image. All that exist are images that are more or less pleasing to the subjective viewer.

I have to take exception to this statement, because I think you're conflating three different things, and that's really the heart of the disconnect.

If "right" or "wrong" are meant to describe "pleasing", then certainly there is no right or wrong. That is subjective.

If "right" or "wrong" are meant to describe my perception of a certain wavelength of light in a certain setting then there is no right or wrong. That's relative and knowable only to me.

If "right" or "wrong" are meant to describe "accurate", then there actually is a right and a wrong, which we can objectively measure and approach reproducing, even if never quite hit it with absolute perfection.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 10:02 pm

Mark Wyatt wrote:An example.

G2 & Gen 5 both with Extended Video.

Rec 709 Colour Space:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1380g4v ... sp=sharing

BMD colour space - but with saturation and contrast increased slightly):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-xp7p ... sp=sharing

I haven't actually looked at Gen 5's flavor of Extended Video yet. I don't use it and am only going by what Captain Hook said here. As he described it, I would expect certain memory colors to be noticeably different. I didn't say "wrong" so as to not trigger anyone. :D
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 10:56 pm

joe12south wrote:
Mark Wyatt wrote:An example.

G2 & Gen 5 both with Extended Video.

Rec 709 Colour Space:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1380g4v ... sp=sharing

BMD colour space - but with saturation and contrast increased slightly):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-xp7p ... sp=sharing

I haven't actually looked at Gen 5's flavor of Extended Video yet. I don't use it and am only going by what Captain Hook said here. As he described it, I would expect certain memory colors to be noticeably different. I didn't say "wrong" so as to not trigger anyone. :D


I'd take a look.

I'm confident that in GEN 5 -> BMD VIDEO or REC709 decode Ryobi Green is Ryobi Green at this point vs Extended Video where it's slightly yellowing. Lighting is going to make a difference and over exposure, but I believe it's now correct when decoded in VIDEO where most were asking it to be.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 11:25 pm

http://humcrush.com/bmdev/
Apologies for having to look at my stupid face. :)

I've included my Gen4 Pocketlut as reference because the whole reason I made it was to take what I liked about Extended Video, but make it a more accurate starting point.

I'll resist editorializing beyond that I think it is safe to conclude that Gen 5 offers a noticeable improvement in terms of overall accuracy.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostTue Feb 23, 2021 11:44 pm

joe12south wrote:I've included my Gen4 Pocketlut as reference because the whole reason I made it was to take what I liked about Extended Video, but make it a more accurate starting point.

I'll resist editorializing beyond that I think it is safe to conclude that Gen 5 offers a noticeable improvement in terms of overall accuracy.


I get your point and I didn't feel like I could work well in all situations with GEN 4 myself, and would sort of toggle between GEN 3 and GEN 4 on the original URSA Mini 4.6K and was struggling on the Pocket 4K in GEN 4.

When they released GEN 5 and I took at look at VIDEO I thought, huh it seems accurate out of the box and has room to work in and Hook clarified that with his posts in at least one other thread too.

CaptainHook wrote:Gen 5 Video now serves that need pretty well I think. It also has 6 stops over middle grey with another 3 stops in specular highlights (Rec.709 is more like ~9 stops in TOTAL). To accomodate this rolloff middle grey is shifted very slightly down from the standard 40.9% for Rec.709 to 40.34%


I think it has outgrown the name VIDEO.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 12:08 am

joe12south wrote:"Video" clips highlights, and "Extended" compresses them for a more film like response.

Gen 5 Video should compress highlights pretty well now as I mentioned above so that description was valid for Gen 4 but not as much for Gen 5. Consider which of our cameras at various ISO's have more than 9 stops over middle grey for example (which is what Gen 5 Video now has like I mentioned). I would say BMD Video Gen 5 is more comparable to ARRI 709 than Extended Video.

Yes Extended Video is our "BMD Film" wide gamut and log curve with saturation and contrast applied - this can be easily verified by selecting Extended Video in the RAW tab and then reducing the contrast and saturation sliders to "1.0" and comparing to BMD Film (it becomes identical). BMD Film was designed so that applying some contrast and saturation would look pleasing very quickly - Extended Video is exactly that but customizable through the RAW tab. Gen 5 Video is specifically for those looking for a more "accurate" starting point but our emphasis (and the majority of feedback we get) is more for "pleasing" over accuracy.

I can't really comment on the other questions about how things are named, or how information is communicated through the more official channels of the website, docs, and videos etc - this forum is technically a user forum that Blackmagic moderates, help from Blackmagic is officially done via support although there is a handful of staff that have permission to engage and help on social media (including this forum) when we can at our discretion.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 1:18 am

robedge wrote:Should people who are new to Blackmagic Raw use Gen 5 and forget about Gen 4? I should note that I'm using a Pocket 4K, for which, as I understand it, Get 5 is not available in-camera.

The next camera update will make Gen 5 available in camera for ProRes users. (If you're shooting BRAW, you can already use it with your P4K.)

Are Gen 4 and Gen 5 equal but different, or is Gen 4 ultimately going to be deprecated?

Since we can bypass Gen 5's gamut clamping in Resolve's RAW tab, I don't see a good reason to use Gen 4 unless you have a legacy workflow that requires it. (Like a favorite LUT.)
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 1:29 am

CaptainHook wrote:
joe12south wrote:"Video" clips highlights, and "Extended" compresses them for a more film like response.

Gen 5 Video should compress highlights pretty well now as I mentioned above so that description was valid for Gen 4 but not as much for Gen 5. Consider which of our cameras at various ISO's have more than 9 stops over middle grey for example (which is what Gen 5 Video now has like I mentioned). I would say BMD Video Gen 5 is more comparable to ARRI 709 than Extended Video.

Yes Extended Video is our "BMD Film" wide gamut and log curve with saturation and contrast applied - this can be easily verified by selecting Extended Video in the RAW tab and then reducing the contrast and saturation sliders to "1.0" and comparing to BMD Film (it becomes identical). BMD Film was designed so that applying some contrast and saturation would look pleasing very quickly - Extended Video is exactly that but customizable through the RAW tab. Gen 5 Video is specifically for those looking for a more "accurate" starting point but our emphasis (and the majority of feedback we get) is more for "pleasing" over accuracy.

I can't really comment on the other questions about how things are named, or how information is communicated through the more official channels of the website, docs, and videos etc - this forum is technically a user forum that Blackmagic moderates, help from Blackmagic is officially done via support although there is a handful of staff that have permission to engage and help on social media (including this forum) when we can at our discretion.

Given how "Video" now behaves, and looking at the samples above, I'm struggling to understand why "Extended Video" need exist...or at least why I would recommend anyone use it?

If you want the power and responsibility of total control, use "Film". (Cue the Stan Lee VO.) If you want to get in the ballpark before tweaking to taste, use "Video".

Am I missing something?
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 1:36 am

...but our emphasis (and the majority of feedback we get) is more for "pleasing" over accuracy.

I can certainly understand that. I made the + version of the Pocket709 lut for this very reason ... I have preferences for how skin and highlights look that aren't strictly accurate.

My documentation also makes it pretty clear what both versions are doing.

Not much more we could ask for from Gen 5 itself...great work...my wish is really for the mothership to be more transparent. Would have saved me the better part of an afternoon. ;)
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 1:48 am

joe12south wrote:Given how "Video" now behaves, and looking at the samples above, I'm struggling to understand why "Extended Video" need exist...or at least why I would recommend anyone use it?

If you want the power and responsibility of total control, use "Film". (Cue the Stan Lee VO.) If you want to get in the ballpark before tweaking to taste, use "Video".

Am I missing something?

Preference I think. Some people prefer the starting point of Extended Video over Gen 5 Video - especially for skin. You're assuming everyone's "ballpark" is using a fairly accurate transform to 709 primaries. Social media really does not represent the majority as it may seem. We get exposed to a wide range of users.

Extended Video and customized versions of it are also supported in the Blackmagic RAW SDK so you can make tweaks as a starting point look, update the sidecar and any app that supports Blackmagic RAW will show the image this way by default. I could post BRAW still frames for example to this thread with tweaked Ext Vid params to my liking and that's how you'd see it by default. Some of the downloadable clips on our website from end users have that done (by the shooters themselves). That's a real benefit for passing on "intention" through post. It's simpler than creating an embedded 3DLUT for many, doesn't suffer precision/interpolation issues like a 3DLUT, and also is far more GPU/CPU processor friendly than a 3DLUT.

For those that embed our Video or Extended Video LUTs from our camera into Blackmagic RAW files, I would recommend setting the record page option to Video or Extended Video instead for these reasons - higher precision of the transform on desktop, and less GPU/CPU resources used than an embedded 3DLUT.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 2:25 am

CaptainHook wrote:Extended Video and customized versions of it are also supported in the Blackmagic RAW SDK so you can make tweaks as a starting point look, update the sidecar and any app that supports Blackmagic RAW will show the image this way by default


I haven't gone as far as customizing Extended Video, but setting GEN 5 and extended video or video gamma in the Project Settings gets the editor looking at "ballpark" right away leaving the options open for me to customize in the raw tab much later after they've created a draft of the edit. It's a massive timesaver working this way over exporting to ProRes first for Final Cut.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 2:27 am

Thanks for the responses! I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to better understand the options at hand
CaptainHook wrote:Extended Video and customized versions of it are also supported in the Blackmagic RAW SDK so you can make tweaks as a starting point look, update the sidecar and any app that supports Blackmagic RAW will show the image this way by default. I could post BRAW still frames for example to this thread with tweaked Ext Vid params to my liking and that's how you'd see it by default. Some of the downloadable clips on our website from end users have that done (by the shooters themselves). That's a real benefit for passing on "intention" through post. It's simpler than creating an embedded 3DLUT for many, doesn't suffer precision/interpolation issues like a 3DLUT, and also is far more GPU/CPU processor friendly than a 3DLUT.

The above is also true for "Film", right? Is "Extended" anything besides "Film" with the Gamma Control settings pre-tweaked as such? https://www.dropbox.com/s/2npapncuz94rv ... 0%20PM.png
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 3:08 am

joe12south wrote:The above is also true for "Film", right? Is "Extended" anything besides "Film" with the Gamma Control settings pre-tweaked as such? https://www.dropbox.com/s/2npapncuz94rv ... 0%20PM.png

I didn't look at your slider numbers but benefit of the doubt they are correct, there is no difference - it's the same. "Extended Video" is essentially a preset of the custom gamma controls. That's why you can intentionally manipulate them when starting from "Film" or "Extended Video" as its the same starting point, but you'll notice we disabled them when selecting BMD Video because that transform is direct from linear, not BMD Film. When adjusting the gamma controls it swaps to "Custom" so then you can easily swap back to Ext Vid and compare your adjustments and confirm you like the changes etc.

Also keep in mind the Ext Vid (and other) calculations are done internally in the SDK at a certain precision, and we provide output data in various options to host applications they can select (Resolve is just a host application to us, and are free to get the data in any precision they want), all the way from 8bit up to 32bit float etc and some apps may choose lower precision for performance gains (which can be significant) especially if its just a player (our own standalone player currently just uses 8bit after decoding also) or for "performance modes" to get better playback but at least you know the operations done in the RAW tab (and inside the SDK) are done at adequate precision at all times.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 3:43 am

CaptainHook wrote:I didn't look at your slider numbers but benefit of the doubt they are correct, there is no difference - it's the same. "Extended Video" is essentially a preset of the custom gamma controls. That's why you can intentionally manipulate them when starting from "Film" or "Extended Video" as its the same starting point, but you'll notice we disabled them when selecting BMD Video because that transform is direct from linear, not BMD Film.

A million thanks! That's exactly the kind of hard info I was looking for.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 4:11 am

Do we know if the G2 is getting this update? I can't find anything and Grant left it out of the mentions, mentioning pretty much every camera BUT the G2 for Gen5 and RGB histo/etc...
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 4:50 am

joe12south wrote:Hopefully Captain Hook will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the comparison to ARRI's REC709 transform is apples to apples with BM Extended Video.

If I understood him correctly, "Extended Video" doesn't include a color transform at all. It just leaves the color in the "internal" BM Film color space.
I hear you. I didn't mean to imply that the transforms were the same, I just meant that both were designed to achieve a pleasing aesthetic, rather than designed to hit REC709 exactly.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 am

Hook, it would be really great if we could select the color science gen in camera with the upcoming firmware update. So one can adapt to an existing workflow, especially when it's ProRes.
Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 8:57 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Hook, it would be really great if we could select the color science gen in camera with the upcoming firmware update. So one can adapt to an existing workflow, especially when it's ProRes.
Any thoughts on this?

Not possible at this stage sorry for various reasons. Once Resolve has Gen 5 added to RCM/CST the best option would be to transform the ProRes footage what you need or use the camera with the current software version to use Gen 4 in ProRes.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 9:29 am

Ok, thanks for clearing this up.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 3:34 pm

CaptainHook wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:Hook, it would be really great if we could select the color science gen in camera with the upcoming firmware update. So one can adapt to an existing workflow, especially when it's ProRes.
Any thoughts on this?

Not possible at this stage sorry for various reasons. Once Resolve has Gen 5 added to RCM/CST the best option would be to transform the ProRes footage what you need or use the camera with the current software version to use Gen 4 in ProRes.


Okay but Gen 5 RCM/CST is not in Resolve yet. If the Pocket 6K-Pro ships with in-camera Gen 5 before Resolve has added Gen 5 to RCM/CST, and with no way to select color science gen in-camera in the upcoming firmware update for the P6K, then how do we match color science between P6K-Pro and P6K in ProRes?

Edit:
Never mind. Answer is still to use RCM/CST Gen-4 with both cams. (I think).
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Tom Roper wrote:Okay but Gen 5 RCM/CST is not in Resolve yet. If the Pocket 6K-Pro ships with in-camera Gen 5 before Resolve has added Gen 5 to RCM/CST, and with no way to select color science gen in-camera in the upcoming firmware update for the P6K, then how do we match color science between P6K-Pro and P6K in ProRes?

Edit:
Never mind. Answer is still to use RCM/CST Gen-4 with both cams. (I think).


Don't think that will work with Prores in RCM. I'm not even sure it will work with braw (something which I hope gets clarified). With braw and RCM, here's guessing the system will detect gen5 as the input color space. And that's that. There's no going back to 4, unless (I think) you revert to DaVinci YRGB.

Is the raw tab color science option even functional in RCM? I don't think so....
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 pm

John Paines wrote:
Don't think that will work with Prores in RCM. I'm not even sure it will work with braw (something which I hope gets clarified). With braw and RCM, here's guessing the system will detect gen5 as the input color space. And that's that. There's no going back to 4, unless (I think) you revert to DaVinci YRGB.

Is the raw tab color science option even functional in RCM? I don't think so....


Right, Gen-5 color science functionality is not added in YRGB Resolve Color managed Custom panel at the present, but changing between Gen-4 and Gen-5 in the raw tab still affects the output. Obviously raw panel is not applicable to Prores.

So on to my question, assume I had a Pocket 6K-Pro that ships with Gen 5 color science. I collaborate to shoot Prores with someone else who has a regular 6K-non/pro using Gen-4. Two different color spaces processed by same RCM transform would yield different outputs if you can't specify somewhere; what the color space is for each.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 5:28 pm

Input color spaces currently available in Resolve include gen1, 3 and 4 for various cameras, so I assume that "5" will be added to the Pockets and others, when RCM fully supports Gen 5.

16.3 b2 is the most recent implementation of gen5 I've worked with, and in the [RCM] raw tab, there is a choice between 4 and 5 (the drop-down isn't greyed out), but it's not functional. This same drop-down *is* functional with Davinci RYGB.

How this is ultimately implemented, we shall see.

As of 16.3, I can't get anywhere with either raw tab extended video or "video". The former is a whole lot of trouble on many shots, and the latter hard clips. So it's normalization by hand. Here's hoping RCM makes this approach unnecessary.
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Re: Gen 4 vs Gen 5 Color Science (Question)

PostWed Feb 24, 2021 6:01 pm

I think you have to be using 17 public beta for Gen-5 functionality. I'm between projects so I switched. It is vastly different, and improved, especially for HDR, but the Project Settings Color Management page is vastly changed: DaVinci YRGB Color Managed now has RCM presets. To get the old look, you choose the Custom preset. You better not wait much longer to get on board with it.

Video, Ext Video works fine, exactly as Captain Hook has described, and the discussion with Joe12South. Ext video is just BMD film gamut with a raw tab custom preset for gamma and saturation. Video is straight 709, no custom alterations available.

But back to my question, without resorting to grading, how can you match in Prores, P6K-Gen4 and P6K-Pro-Gen5 without any input transformations for Gen-5? Would setting Input to bypass for P6K-Pro, and Input to Gen-4 for P6K work?
Last edited by Tom Roper on Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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