4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

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lmac666

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4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostMon May 03, 2021 11:17 pm

Hi,

I’m shooting a short film in October this year and am tossing up between shooting 6KBRAW or 4KBRAW on the BMPCC6K. I would love to shoot 6K but I’m just not sure we can facilitate the amount of storage space required to store file sizes that large. Would it better to just shoot in 4KBRAW or is it worth spending that extra money on storage space to shoot in 6KBRAW. In terms of image I suppose they are both extremely high quality but I just wanted to hear other people’s opinions on what I should do.

Regards,

Luke
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Tyler Edwards

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostTue May 04, 2021 2:28 pm

Get more storage to accommodate 6K BRAW if possible. You will be dealing with a pretty decent crop in 4K.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostTue May 04, 2021 2:35 pm

Storage is cheap these days. You can always off load to a SSD in between shoots and reuse the media. If you are not doing any VFX work, you don't need to shoot at high resolution and codec. For short, you can get by even with a 5:1 or 8:1. If you know and confident of the compositions you plan to take in camera, 4K is just as good even with the crop factor since you can plan ahead.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostTue May 04, 2021 3:30 pm

Consider the resolution of your deliverables. If you’re delivering 2K or HD, you will get good results from shooting 4K; if you’re delivering 4K, then shooting and recording in 6K could give you better results.
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drknsss

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostTue May 04, 2021 10:11 pm

Where is this movie going?
Is it gonna be seen at a film festival on a 100 foot silver screen? Then shoot 6K.

Otherwise, shoot 4K

There are lots of reasons to choose 6K over 4K. What is the style and tone of the film you are making? I have been watching the oscar-nominated films this year and the films run the full spectrum from flat and muted tones to rich and saturated to grungy! Let the story decide what format you shoot in!


My two cents....,
Last edited by drknsss on Fri May 14, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 05, 2021 12:18 am

Although you might be controlling the lighting, you should get better low light performance at 6K since more area will gather (4096/6144=.667x23.1=15.4, 15.4/17=.906x9=8.15 x 15.4=125.5 SQ mm, 23.1x12.99=300 SQ mm /125.5=2.39) 239% more light, and you might be able to close down the aperture for a sharper image and greater depth of field.

What lenses will you be using? If you are concerned about media costs, I suspect that you might not be using expensive Super 35 cine lenses.

At 4KBRAW, you can use high quality Super 16 cine lenses that are available at bargain prices. The 15.4mm sensor crop is close enough to the Super 16 film gate of 12.522x7.417mm that it does not vignette midway through it's range. Since they were designed to be blown up to 35mm, the best of them are on a par with or better than the best of the 35mm film lenses. Due to the current slump in lens rentals, companies are selling off their seldom used lenses, making them available. Their rental prices are considerably lower as well. The Director I got my Cooke from had it available for $100 USD a day on Sharegrid before he sold it. Others charge less.

Using the Cooke Varokinetal 10.8-60mm T3 (a 1975 9-50mm modified by Optex to cover Super 16) on a PL mount modified BMPCC 6K at 4K DCI braw, there is no vignette at 28mm and above. This is a full frame equivalent fov of (36/(4096/6144x23.1) x28) 65-140mm. An 87% crop at 10.8mm removes the vignette, for a full frame equivalent fov of ((36/(4096/6144x23.1) x10.8)/.87) 29mm. There is no vignette at the 2.8K sensor area throughout the zoom range. The going price for this lens is less than 3% of it's original 1975 price.

EDIT: Until I do more research, I am not sure if Super 16 lenses are compatible with the BMPCC 6K if it has the factory EF mount or the Wooden Camera PL mount modification. Super 16 lenses are not listed on the compatibility list from Wooden Camera.

Although the Cooke Varokinetal 10.8-60mm T3 lens has a profusion from it's flange of 30mm, well below the 40mm maximum for a Wooden Camera PL mount, I am using a 2019 Bezamod "deep mod", that unlike their regular one, was advertised as being compatible with Super 16 lenses. On this camera the surface of the PL flange mount to the collar above the sensor is 37mm. The end of the camera body snout to the surface of PL flange mount is 12.5mm.

The previous owner of this lens used it with a Wooden Camera PL mount modified BMPCC. He had an issue with a lack of infinity focus near the widest setting. Happily, with the Bezamod "deep mod" modification, I can get infinity focus from 10.8 to 60mm on the Cooke 10.8-60mm lens on my BMPCC 6K.

I found this post from 2019:

Jean Capdouzey said:
"You will never get 16/S16mm C-Mount lens to reach infinity focus on the P6K, never....unless a piece of optics was inserted between the sensor and rear flange. The sensor is simply to far away. You would have to put the lens inside the camera mount to get any decent focus."

Re: PCC4K vs 6K for 16mm lenses
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96913&p=538072&hilit=+16%2FS16mm+C+Mount+#p538072
Last edited by dondidnod on Wed May 05, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 05, 2021 3:14 am

drknsss wrote:Where is this movie going?
Is it gonna be seen at a film festival on a 100 foot silver screen? Then shoot 6K.

Otherwise, shoot 4K

There are lots of reasons to choose 6K over 4K. What is the style and tone of the film you are making? I have been watching the oscar-nominated films this year and the films run the full spectrum from flat and mutes to rich and saturated to grungy! Let the story decide what format you shoot in!


My two cents....,

My experience with festivals and I have had my films shown in many festivals on the large silver screen is that submissions for most of them requires 2K @ 24fps DCP since most Theater projectors only supports 2K DCP. As Rick said, if you plan your delivery, then you know what resolution is best to use. and as I said, if you plan your composition in camera, it doesn’t matter is you shoot 4K crop or 6K full. It may not even matter if you use BRAW or Prores. What matters is a good story.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 06, 2021 2:33 am

When shooting at 4K DCI, a set of used fast primes with a used BMPCC 6K costs $4,098 more than an equivalent BMPCC 4K while using (125.5/189) only 66% of the lens. This should result in less low light performance since the sensor gathers 50.5% less light.

BMPCC 6K @ 4K DCI braw 8.15 x 15.4=125.5 SQ mm
BMPCC 4K @ 4K DCI braw 10 x 18.9=189 SQ mm
BMPCC 4K 189/125.5 = 50.5% greater surface area

BMPCC 6K $1575
CanonUSA EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Refurb $1259
BH ZEISS Milvus 35mm f/1.4 ZE EF $1439
BH Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM $1,230
BH Canon EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM $1,385
BMPCC 6K total $6888 USD

BMPCC 4K $850
Voigtlander 10.5mm f/0.95 MFT $660
Voigtlander 17.5mm f/0.95 MFT $550
Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95 II MFT $300
Voigtlander 42.5mm f/0.95 MFT $430
BMPCC 4K total $2790
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 06, 2021 2:41 pm

The 4k shoots better 4k than the 6k shooting 4k.

The wooden camera PL mount has shims that allow for FFD adjustment. Which is something EVERY pl mount camera has and must do. It may be the lens itself needs to be shimmed as well.

Super 16PL mount lenses should work fine. I have a few exotic ones that are great, like the Century 6mm T1.9

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 06, 2021 9:23 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
drknsss wrote:My experience with festivals and I have had my films shown in many festivals on the large silver screen is that submissions for most of them require 2K @ 24fps DCP since most Theater projectors only support 2K DCP. As Rick said, if you plan your delivery, then you know what resolution is best to use. and as I said, if you plan your composition in camera, it doesn’t matter is you shoot 4K crop or 6K full. It may not even matter if you use BRAW or Prores. What matters is a good story.


I understand what you mean.

I think 6K is a better overall choice for screening in a theatre. Resolution selection is a personal choice dictated by the story but for me the 6K matches an Alexa look more which is not a bad thing to use as support for the story. 6k to 2k DCP beats 4k to 2k screening when not everyone gets/likes the story.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 06, 2021 10:01 pm

Thank you for your answers. Most appreciated.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostFri May 07, 2021 12:31 am

drknsss wrote:
Ellory Yu wrote:
drknsss wrote:My experience with festivals and I have had my films shown in many festivals on the large silver screen is that submissions for most of them require 2K @ 24fps DCP since most Theater projectors only support 2K DCP. As Rick said, if you plan your delivery, then you know what resolution is best to use. and as I said, if you plan your composition in camera, it doesn’t matter is you shoot 4K crop or 6K full. It may not even matter if you use BRAW or Prores. What matters is a good story.


I understand what you mean.

I think 6K is a better overall choice for screening in a theatre. Resolution selection is a personal choice dictated by the story but for me the 6K matches an Alexa look more which is not a bad thing to use as support for the story. 6k to 2k DCP beats 4k to 2k screening when not everyone gets/likes the story.

I don’t agree and I own the 6K. I also own the UMP G2 and I have shot @4K with it and grade it to match the Alexa clip using ACES workflow. If you really want to match the Alexa look, then OG Pocket or the BMCC 2.5K is to go for. Nevertheless a good colorist can match it with most camera, even in Prores log. But yeah, go with 6K if you feel that is best for your delivery.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostFri May 07, 2021 11:07 am

Ellory: I like your approach to this artform!

Since this is a forum that focuses on cinematography I think there are a different set of parameters to focus on than the other disciplines like director or producer. As the DP I fight for the best image possible as a point of pride and to get more work no matter what the story is. As a writer-director or producer, I am focused on the other aspects which are just as important.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostFri May 07, 2021 2:32 pm

No brainer. Shoot 6K and go for a codec with a leaner data rate. I use Q5 for most things.

I don't think the resolution is much of a factor. It's just that it's what the sensor is. And the sensor is already undersized relative to the EF mount.

If you don't want 6K masters, then just transcode afterwards, or on a daily basis if you're really sure.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostFri May 07, 2021 6:43 pm

I'd shoot 6K just to avoid the crop, and not worry about it. You're probably also going to end up being pleasantly surprised, because Braw is pretty efficient. In my admittedly non-scientific testing it's been comparable in that regard to Redcode, which I bring up only to relate to two examples.

One is that on a shoot a couple of years I ago, I recorded both 8K Redcode and 4K ProRes 422 as proxies. We found that the ProRes was about the same size as the Redcode... so I stopped using simultaneous proxies after that.

The other is that on the feature film that I shot in 8K, we had planned for about 3x the storage that we ended up using, because we used 4K ProRes as our guide for how much we'd need. It wasn't even close; the first feature I shot was in 2K ProRes, and it's around 6TB total (not including some pickups), and the second feature shot in 8K also ended up being around 6TB.

That said, if you use the absolute highest quality settings available you do lose a lot of that efficiency, but you don't need it. We screened our film in a theater with a 70mm projection system... and even though I gave the projectionist a 2K as well as 4K master, I'm pretty sure that he ended up using the 2K master because even on that big screen the difference was hard to see.

So... to avoid the crop, use 6K. Don't use the highest quality settings. We used 14:1 compression and even the 4K masters that we didn't need looked great, but the distribution masters are all 2K as well.

For mastering in 2K, you can get away with a shocking amount of compression when recording in 6K even if you were using a lower quality codec than Braw, which you're not.

And regarding 6K being ideal for theatrical presentation... that's hogwash. Every pro in the biz knows that what matters most for getting the best quality possible are lighting, art direction, and acting.

Especially with modern cameras...
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostMon May 10, 2021 9:52 pm

Thank you. You make some great points.


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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 12:48 pm

John Brawley wrote:The 4k shoots better 4k than the 6k shooting 4k.
Better in what parameters?
What's the actual used sensor size in the 4K and in the 6K when shooting 4K and 4K DCI?
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 2:23 pm

Joshua_G wrote:
John Brawley wrote:The 4k shoots better 4k than the 6k shooting 4k.
Better in what parameters?
What's the actual used sensor size in the 4K and in the 6K when shooting 4K and 4K DCI?

I don't think it shoots better because that is subjective. The difference is that shooting 4K braw with the P4K uses the full sensor while shooting 4K DCI braw with the P6K uses a windowed sensor.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 2:53 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:
Joshua_G wrote:
John Brawley wrote:The 4k shoots better 4k than the 6k shooting 4k.
Better in what parameters?
What's the actual used sensor size in the 4K and in the 6K when shooting 4K and 4K DCI?

I don't think it shoots better because that is subjective. The difference is that shooting 4K braw with the P4K uses the full sensor while shooting 4K DCI braw with the P6K uses a windowed sensor.

What are the actual sensor areas, in millimeters, of the BMPCC 4K versus BMPCC 6K, shooting:
1. 4K;
2. 4K DCI?
(Windowed area of a larger sensor, potentially may be larger than full sensor area of a smaller sensor).
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4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm

The photosites on the BMPCC4K are larger than the photosites on the BMPCC6K so the light gathering capability of a BMPCC4K shooting 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 is greater than the same 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 on the BMPCC6K.

You can calculate the photosite size by dividing the full active sensor width by the number of ‘pixels’ shooting at the maximum resolution. The BMPCC4K uses photosites 4.63 microns but the size on the BMPCC6K is 3.76 microns.

So the light gathering capability of the BMPCC4K photosite is more than 50% higher. And the angle of view on the BMPCC4K at 4K will be greater than the BMPCC6K with the sensor cropped to 4K. The physical dimension of 4K 17:9 crop on the BMPCC6K is 15.4x8.12mm; on the BMPCC4K, 4K 17:9 is 18.96x10mm.

For comparison, the photosites on the URSA Mini Pro 12K are only 2.2 microns but there’s lots of Magic applied to the RGBWWW sensor to enhance light gathering.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 7:03 pm

rick.lang wrote:The photosites on the BMPCC4K are larger than the photosites on the BMPCC6K so the light gathering capability of a BMPCC4K shooting 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 is greater than the same 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 on the BMPCC6K.

How come for the same resolution a smaller sensor has larger photosites?
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4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 8:41 pm

Joshua, the sensor on the BMPCC4K was designed to be a ‘mirrorless’ 4K sensor so the individual photosites could be 4.63 microns and still use lenses with image circles designed for mirrorless cameras. At 18.96mm, the BMPCC4K is a bit bigger than the traditional mFT 17.3mm sensor, but it’s close so those lenses work.

The BMPCC6K uses a different design that would accommodate 6K but in a small enough package that APS-C and DX lenses will work. But that means the photosites needed to be smaller. If the BMPCC6K had a physically larger sensor width such as about 24.9mm like traditional Super35 film, then the photosites could have been larger at say 4 microns, but I don’t think a sensor of that size comes with dual range ISO which is an important feature of the modern Pocket cameras.

What’s fascinating about the sensor in the URSA Mini Pro 12K camera is that a cut down version of that sensor will fit in a BMPCC8K camera due to the 2.2 micron photosites.
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 8:43 pm

Larger photo sites means that 4k on the pocket is larger in size / area than 4k worth of smaller sized photo sites on the 6k.

With there being many variable that can affect the desired result, most find the larger size / larger photo sites to yield a better 4k result. It also means the FOV with lenses is less “cropped”.

Obviously only one of the cameras shoots 6k so it’s horses for courses


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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostWed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm

Joshua_G wrote:How come for the same resolution a smaller sensor has larger photosites?

Because larger photosites increase the dynamic range in low light conditions.

"Dynamic Range at full sensor readout, ISO3200, 6K BRAW 25p

At ISO3200 the dynamic range drops quite significantly to 10.0 stops ...This is less than the BMPCC 4K which shows a corresponding value of 10.5 stops"

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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 13, 2021 11:24 am

Thanks, Rick, John and Donald.
Since I already have the 6K and 6K pro, from my side this discussion is merely theoretical…
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Re: 4KBRAW or 6KBRAW

PostThu May 13, 2021 4:29 pm

dondidnod wrote:
Joshua_G wrote:How come for the same resolution a smaller sensor has larger photosites?

Because larger photosites increase the dynamic range in low light conditions.shutter-more/


That's actually double incorrect. Larger photosites increase the signal to noise ratio, period -- provided that all else is equal, of course. If you compare a sensor with larger photosites to a BSI sensor with smaller photosites you might actually end up finding no difference, or that the BSI sensor actually has a better signal to noise ratio. It's happened before.

The dynamic range therefore is not in any way dependent on the level of exposure. However, if all else is equal, larger photosites will, because of the higher signal to noise ratio, enable you to get cleaner shadows on a bright, sunny day.

The benefits in low light handling are obvious.

Second, more light gathering isn't the reason that the smaller sensor has larger photosites. That derives entirely from geometry.
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