Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

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agustinfs12

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Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostThu Apr 29, 2021 3:30 pm

HI,

I currently have 3 Contax Zeiss Lenses and I'm looking for a parfocal zoom lens to match those to use as an allrounder lens for corporate video work to avoid carrying 3 other lenses.

I was looking at: (I'm open to suggestions on the same price range)
Angenieux 12-120mm f/2.2
Angenieux 17-68 f/2.2
Vario Sonnar 35-70mm f/3.4

My concern are:
Vignetting: Will a teleconverter 1.5x or 2x be enough to get rid of this?
Quality: Will any of theses optiond stand to my Contax Zeiss?
Adapter: I use a Viltrox speedbooster, what would I need to adapt theses lens in order to get them to work fine with it?

Thanks!
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 12:44 am

Those Angenieux lenses seem to be 16mm zooms. Forget them! Great glass, but not enough image circle for your camera.

The Zeiss will fit your lenses perfectly, but it's a one-touch zoom. Difficult to use for zooming while filming, but great as 'variable prime'. Another option might be the often underestimated Canon FD 35-105mm f3.5, which is par focal with a good adapter for MFT. Not really wide, though.

For something wide, I'd go modern glass, like Sigma or Tamron. My Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 is matching the Contax C/Y line with minor color correction.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 1:10 am

Uli Plank wrote:Those Angenieux lenses seem to be 16mm zooms. Forget them! Great glass, but not enough image circle for your camera.


Hi, thanks for the reply. Wouldn't it work with a 2x or 1.5x teleconverter?

Uli Plank wrote: Another option might be the often underestimated Canon FD 35-105mm f3.5, which is par focal with a good adapter for MFT. Not really wide, though. .


Thanks for the tip on the Zeiss, that definitely is a deal breaker for me. I'll check the canon you mentioned, it is actually wide enough for my needs. Do you think it has a similar quality to my Contax Zeiss?
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 5:38 am

I have the Angenieux 9.5-57mm f/1.6-2.2 in ARRI B mount. It does not vignette across it's full zoom in HD or in the 2.6K sensor area above 17mm on my BMPCC 4K. This results in a full frame equivalent of (17x2.89) 49 to (57x2.89) 165mm. It's parafocal, and does not breathe when focusing. Angenieux lenses tend to look warm. I have seen good copies go for under $400 USD. I paid $325 for my Angie. There was a rare HEC version that costs more. Rafcamera makes m43 adapters for $79-$99. They sell for less than the 17-68 and are faster. I found this on Vintagelensesforvideo:

..(og BMPCC) Yes, 9.5-57mm also vignettes at the wide end as can be seen in the video above, but from 17mm, sensor coverage is pretty much the same as on 17-68mm. In addition to that you still have the flexibility to go much wider if needed. Vignetting is almost invisible with a 2.35:1 aspect crop, which we often use anyway, or can be hidden with a 5-10% timeline crop and once you get over 25mm no correction of any sort is needed which is the same for 17-68mm. Another little bonus on 9.5-68mm is that it is even faster than 17-68mm at the wide end, although by 17mm both are probably around F2.2. The 9.5-57mm has a handy preset function on the aperture ring which let’s you lock it at F2.2 as widest setting to prevent exposure change as you zoom the lens in. The aperture adjustment is click-less and super smooth too. ...at around F4 and to me it felt as sharp as I’d like such lens to be. After all, most people would buy such lens for its old school feel and character, which it has plenty of! Worth over $500
Using Angenieux 9.5-57mm F1.6-2.2 on BMPCC/S16 | In-depth REVIEW ...
https://www.vintagelensesforvideo.com/a ... -9-5-57mm/

Cooke Varokinetal 9-50mm f/2.5 zooms were converted to super 16 with Optex 1.2x converters, making them 10.8-60mm T3 parafocal lenses. At this level of magnification, the image quality loss is only 20%. The geared 340 degree focus ring does not breathe in rack focusing, and the zoom works with geared Ikan adjustable tension lever mechanisms. They can be had for under $2000 when you can find one, which is less than 3% of their original 1975 price. Due to the current slump in lens rentals, companies are selling off their seldom used lenses, making them available. Since they were designed to be blown up to 35mm, they are on a par or better than the best of the 35mm film lenses. It works without vignetting in the full zoom range in 2.6K and HD. It should cut well with Voigtlander MFT primes. The look is classic Hollywood. 80s indie features, like THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT, were shot with a Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm, the factory S16 conversion of the 9-50mm.
Screenshot_20210429-211419.png
THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT - Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm
Screenshot_20210429-211419.png (571.07 KiB) Viewed 1645 times

Screenshot_20210430-151908.png
THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT - Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm
Screenshot_20210430-151908.png (747.54 KiB) Viewed 1453 times

Screenshot_20210430-151648.png
THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT - Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm
Screenshot_20210430-151648.png (919.78 KiB) Viewed 1452 times

EDIT1 - In UHD on the BMPCC 4K, it does gradually vignette horizontally 25% above 35mm, and 10% at 60mm in UHD.
EDIT2 - Using the Cooke Varokinetal 10.8-60mm T3 on a Bezamod PL mount modified BMPCC 6K at 4K DCI braw, there is no vignette at 28mm and above. This is a full frame equivalent fov range of (36/(4096/6144x23.1) x28) 65-140mm. An 87% crop at 10.8mm removes the vignette, for a full frame equivalent fov of ((36/(4096/6144x23.1) x10.8)/.87) 29mm. There is no vignette at 2.8K throughout the zoom range and at 3.7K there are dark corners from 52 to 60mm, with vignetting below that.
Last edited by dondidnod on Sun May 02, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 8:16 am

Quite a few S-16 lenses will work in the HD window, as long as you stay over 16 or 18mm focal length.
But 4K will not be possible.

Another nice FF zoom is the 35-70mm f3.5 by Olympus and there is a 35-105 f3.5 by Soligor, also sold under other brands like Tokina, Vivitar, or Hoya. It came in different mounts, including C/Y. Not Zeiss class and heavy, but usable and smooth mechanism.
See:

As you can see, it switches to macro at any focal length and has pretty nice bokeh for a zoom. Not as contrasty as Zeiss, but that can be done in post. Some even upgrade it for film use:
Last edited by Uli Plank on Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 8:29 am

Uli, what about the Minolta Rokkor MD 35-70mm f/3.5? In your "Rokkor Survival Guide" you mentioned that it was parfocal, although I've heard conflicting reports on that. Obviously not a very fast zoom, but the image quality and colors are lovely; Leica rebranded it initially as a Vario-Elmar until they came out with their own f/4 version in 1997.

Not sure how well it would match with the Contax Zeiss, though.

I use my Rokkors now on my Micro Cinema Camera, using a SR/MD to Nikon F/G adapter into a Metabones Speedbooster Nikon-to-BMD Super 16 MFT mount.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 8:39 am

Its optical quality is very close to the Zeiss 35-70mm and it's two-touch, but the colors are different.
Parfocality (if that word exists) depends a lot on the adapter, some are simply off. And then, such old lenses may be worn or have been mishandled, so you can't expect that all samples are parfocal. That, of course, applies to all lenses mentioned here.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 8:47 am

Brad Hurley wrote:Uli, what about the Minolta Rokkor MD 35-70mm f/3.5? In your "Rokkor Survival Guide" you mentioned that it was parfocal, although I've heard conflicting reports on that. Obviously not a very fast zoom, but the image quality and colors are lovely; Leica rebranded it initially as a Vario-Elmar until they came out with their own f/4 version in 1997.

Not sure how well it would match with the Contax Zeiss, though.

I use my Rokkors now on my Micro Cinema Camera, using a SR/MD to Nikon F/G adapter into a Metabones Speedbooster Nikon-to-BMD Super 16 MFT mount.

It's not as good sharpness wise as the CY 35-70 but on 8mp P4k using the central area it may not be a practical issue like it is on full frame(Few primes are as good as the Contax 35-70 on full frame).It has 'character' though. I had 2 copies and neither were parafocal. No still lenses are parafocal by design but some are by accident. For something versatile, modern and cheap with good performance then the Tamron 28-75 2.8 is pretty good and has usable MF. The trouble with old zooms is that they can become mechanically worn and misaligned so for a reliable zoom for 'work' I'd look at something modern like the the Canon 24-70 2.8 or the 24-105 F4 if you need IS. Of all the legacy MF stills primes the Contax lenses do look the most 'modern' so matching them to modern zooms will be less of a problem than if you had say FD or Leica R primes.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 10:04 am

Right, that's why I recommended the Sigma 18-35mm. But the title is referring to vintage.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 1:10 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Right, that's why I recommended the Sigma 18-35mm. But the title is referring to vintage.

I know but the OP's question doesn't make sense. Contax Zeiss don't have a 'vintage' look so a zoom to match them will need to be modern esp as the stated concerns are 'quality' and vignetting.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 1:24 pm

Old SD B4 lens is maybe not what you are looking for...

But they are pretty awesome lenses for the price. this is directly connected to P6K, with P4K you could use a MFT adapter.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=130233#p707045



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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 6:40 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I've come to the conclusion that there isn't something for my price range that meet all my requests. Those Angenieux seem nice but could end up being a hassle. I should have said 80's look more than vintage. I love the look of my Contax Zeiss but with the crop factor in consideration I hardly ever use the 85mm in my shoots, only the 28mm and 50mm. Maybe I should just get a zoom Vario Sonnar for the 50mm+ range and a SLR Magic for wider shots.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 7:52 pm

The Angenieux 15-150 comes much closer to covering the BMPCC4k sensor than the 12-120. Still some vignetting, but very useable. You can probably get away with cropping to 3.2k or something like that.
I have it and it's a VERY vintage look but I find it nice.
Focus ring is the front of the lens so that's dicey if you need a matte box. If you get a step up ring though you can use a screw on ND without further vignetting.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri Apr 30, 2021 9:00 pm

agustinfs12 wrote: I should have said 80's look more than vintage.

What's the 80's look?
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 6:31 am

Angenieux made a 28-70 f2.6 zoom lens that covers full frame in both Nikon F and Canon mount. There is one on eBay for $1799 right now. Also the Angenieux 17.5-70 S16 zoom will work in HD window as well as thrnS16 window on the Pocket 4K, both zooms are parfocal.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 2:32 pm

I have been watching Hercule Poirot lately, many of them look like filmed with b4 SD lens :D

Stopped down the old B4 lenses can have pretty good image guality, but often wide open thye have this kind of glow effect.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 4:36 pm

Uli Plank wrote: a 35-105 f3.5 by Soligor, also sold under other brands like Tokina, Vivitar, or Hoya. It came in different mounts, including C/Y. Not Zeiss class and heavy, but usable and smooth mechanism.


Cool, I'll look into it.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 4:44 pm

dondidnod wrote:I have the Angenieux 9.5-57mm f/1.6-2.2 in ARRI B mount. It does not vignette across it's full zoom in HD or in the 2.6K sensor area above 17mm on my BMPCC 4K. This results in a full frame equivalent of (17x2.89) 49 to (57x2.89) 165mm. It's parafocal, and does not breathe when focusing. Angenieux lenses tend to look warm. I have seen good copies go for under $400 USD. I paid $325 for my Angie. There was a rare HEC version that costs more. Rafcamera makes m43 adapters for $79-$99. They sell for less than the 17-68 and are faster


Thank you very much for this! I'll look into it. If it'll pair well with Voigtlander glasses it should with my Contax Zeiss.
What about the Angenieux Zoom F 9.5-95mm 1:2 .2?
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 6:45 pm

I thought that the 9.5-95mm should be similar, but noticed that the deals were better on the less loved 9.5-57mm, and since I don't do wildlife photography, I settled for one. Angie's have their own look.

I mentioned the Voigtlanders since they have been compared to Cooke's many times, and produced lenses under Cooke patents in their long history. Cooke's are known for their vintage bokeh, and wide open are softer than Zeiss lenses, with less contrast.

Although it breathes on focusing, you might want to look at the Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 10-100mm. It will cover the HD mode, and the 2.6K mode above 50mm without vignetting on the BMPCC 4K. The T* T3.1 ones have multi-coatings and sell for under $600 USD. Optex did 1.2x S16 conversions on the f/1.8 versions to 12-120mm on them that sell for $2000-$2800 USD.

Re: PCC4K vs 6K for 16mm lenses
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96913&p=590615&hilit=Cavision#p590615

This site has a lot of information on cine lenses.
http://cinematechnic.com/resources/optics_for_super-16/
Last edited by dondidnod on Mon May 03, 2021 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 9:16 pm

dondidnod wrote:Re: PCC4K vs 6K for 16mm lenses
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96913&p=590615&hilit=Cavision#p590615
This site has a lot of information on cine lenses.
http://cinematechnic.com/resources/optics_for_super-16/


Thanks again for your help- I've recently discovered the Schneider variogon 18-90mm f/2 c mount and I love how it looks, it'll complement well with my Contax Zeiss. Will it also vignette when using a c mount to ef adapter to my viltrox? I'm sorry if I sound repetitive but I don't undertand this all too well.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSat May 01, 2021 11:28 pm

It's a very nice lens, but you can't use it with such an adapter.
It covers S-16 from about 20mm. Another gem for S-16 is the Angenieux 20-80mm, if you can find it.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSun May 02, 2021 5:04 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Another gem for S-16 is the Angenieux 20-80mm, if you can find it.


I've found it. Do you know of any full frame manual parfocal zoom lens, Angenieux or not?
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostSun May 02, 2021 9:12 pm

There are all the classic zooms for 35mm film, but they are heavy and don't come cheap. Like the Cooke 20-100 Kubrick used in "The Shining".
I already mentioned the alternatives from the photographic cameras that work for me, I don't like to speculate about those I never tried.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostMon May 03, 2021 1:19 am

agustinfs12 wrote:Do you know of any full frame manual parfocal zoom lens, Angenieux or not?

Due to the use of magnesium, these are the lightest full frame professional cine parafocal zooms in the industry. They are only 3.7 to 8.1 Kg., which is only 6 to 12 times the weight of your BMPCC 4K. You'll need a second tripod for stable shooting though.

Now is a good time to buy them. Second mortgage rates are near an all time low!

ARRI Announces the Signature Zooms: “The Largest Zoom Range in the Industry”
https://ymcinema.com/2020/09/23/arri-an ... -industry/
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostMon May 03, 2021 1:43 am

You don’t need a second tripod, you can hang the camera on the lens. :lol:

If you don't want to mortgage your home, the Canon FD 35-105 is parfocal with a good adapter and when in good condition.
And the bokeh is quite OK too: youtu.be/XeHkC48Mtp4
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostMon May 03, 2021 1:43 pm

Uli Plank wrote:If you don't want to mortgage your home, the Canon FD 35-105 is parfocal with a good adapter and when in good condition.
And the bokeh is quite OK too: youtu.be/XeHkC48Mtp4


Thanks I'll look into it! I've been checking the Angenieux 35-70mm F2.5-3.3, which seems to be exactly what I'm looking for, and also the Leica Leitz Vario Elmar-R 35-70mm f/3.5.

The Vario Sonnar 28-85, 28-80, 24-85 and 35-70 look amazing but are not parfocal and some have the uncomfortable push pull zoom mechanism.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostMon May 03, 2021 9:14 pm

Might as well see what the new Tokina 25-75 will do. Might be out in June. This is one I have been waiting to consider.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostMon May 03, 2021 11:43 pm

Agree, Jeffrey. I’m sure looking forward to your comments when you let us know how you find it.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostTue May 04, 2021 9:41 am

Just found my CY 35-70 3.4 and put it on my P6k and it's not far off being parafocal and better than most stills 'zoom' lenses. The push pull zoom action is smooth and once you have got your zoom position the focus action won't change it so it's hardly any practical difference to a '2 touch' . I'd definitely check out one of these before you spend a lot of money on a cine zoom esp if you want to match the look of your existing contax lenses. Modern zooms can certainly outperform this lens wide open but stopped down to 5.6/8 it's better. One other thing is that used at wider apertures a lot of modern zooms have fussy/ funky out of focus areas (front and back) whereas the contax has pretty smooth and prime like fall off. Lastly the focus throw is very long ( and very smooth in action) which may be another benefit for video use.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostTue May 04, 2021 10:06 pm

John Griffin wrote:Just found my CY 35-70 3.4 and put it on my P6k and it's not far off being parafocal and better than most stills 'zoom' lenses.


Hi, good recommendation. I've been looking at the Contax Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar T* 28-85mm f/3.3-4.0
I wil decide between contax zeis lenses as you suggest. The angenieux is too expensive.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostTue May 04, 2021 11:27 pm

agustinfs12 wrote: The angenieux is too expensive.


This would require a different speedbooster, but there's always the Tokina ATX-Pro 28-70mm f2.8/f2.6-2.8 zoom, which was based on an Angénieux and is parfocal (the one I have isn't really, but it's close). Very affordable; I paid about $350 USD for mine and it even came in its original box with the metal hood. I got mine in Nikon mount but I believe it's available in EF as well.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostTue May 04, 2021 11:58 pm

Did EF exist already at the time? If you are lucky, you may find it in C/Y mount.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostWed May 05, 2021 12:32 am

Uli Plank wrote:Did EF exist already at the time? If you are lucky, you may find it in C/Y mount.


From what I've read they were made in Nikon, Minolta, Canon EF, and Pentax KAF mount. There was a confusing variety of variations on this lens; the one to get is the 28-70 AT-X PRO 2.6-2.8 (version II of the lens, released in 1997, has some optical improvements and better coatings; you can recognize it because it has a bayonet hood rather than screw-in hood); this is the Angénieux design.

There's a long thread about this lens on BMCUser.com; Frank Glencairn used it as his main lens for cinematography for a time.

[edited to add info about version II of the lens]
Last edited by Brad Hurley on Wed May 05, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostWed May 05, 2021 2:35 am

Thanks for that info.
I'd avoid it in Nikon mount, then. It's confusing if the focus turns in the opposite direction from your Zeiss C/Y lenses.
(Some follow focus attachments can change the direction)
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostWed May 05, 2021 11:24 am

Uli Plank wrote:Thanks for that info.
I'd avoid it in Nikon mount, then. It's confusing if the focus turns in the opposite direction from your Zeiss C/Y lenses.


Good point: the Tokina Nikon-mount version does indeed focus the Nikon way. The reason I got the Nikon-mount version is that I have a Nikon-mount speedbooster (and dummy mount), which I chose because they have manual aperture dials. That was important for me because the Sigma 18-35 has no aperture dial. Confusingly enough, the Sigma 18-35 Nikon mount focuses in the standard direction (not the Nikon way). Switching between the Tokina and my other lenses hasn't been a problem for me; I'm an ambidextrous focuser, but these days I'm using the Tokina almost exclusively so I've gotten used to it.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri May 14, 2021 12:07 am

I picked up an Angenieux 9.5-57 for a really great price on Ebay, and it's working really nicely with a P4K. It's an Arri B mount, and I'm using it with the Fotodiox adapter which is nice and solid. In BRAW / HD, there's no significant vignetting, and it looks really nice. It's a very cool setup for the price.
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Re: Vintage Parfocal Zoom Lens Recommendation for BMPCC4K

PostFri May 14, 2021 2:59 am

would be nice to see picture of the setup and video taken with it.
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