Please is this normal

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jokafor

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Please is this normal

PostSat Apr 24, 2021 11:29 pm

This is what I see on my new Black magic 6k pro in low light. The light is not even that low but the screen gets very noisy. I can't even see what I am focusing on. This is very weird. It is worst if you turn on the display lut.

My Screen has the blue tint and I was going to keep but with this issue, I think I will be returning the camera unless I am doing something wrong.
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jallen0

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 12:57 am

I am going to say no, however your tint is up a bit high. Have you done a factory reset of your camera?
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 1:17 am

jallen0 wrote:I am going to say no, however your tint is up a bit high. Have you done a factory reset of your camera?


I did all that reset. Even pushing the tint up or down makes no difference. Once I point the camera to a low-light area the screen goes crazy.
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Donnell Henry

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 1:39 am

Do you have focus assist on? Is the red dancing around like noise? Try disabling the focus assist. It’s worth a try.
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jokafor

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 2:12 am

Donnell Henry wrote:Do you have focus assist on? Is the red dancing around like noise? Try disabling the focus assist. It’s worth a try.


The focus assist is on but hard to see because it blends in with the noise. but disabling the focus assist makes no difference. It only improves if I disable the lut assist.

BTW If I disable the focus assist what is the point of owning the camera then. The camera can't do continues auto-focus the only help we get is to use the focus assist.

This camera has issue after issue. Now I understand why a lot of people lack confidence in black magic cameras.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:22 am

Looks not normal, but difficult to tell of an single picture. How does it look if you record? how is it on bright light? how is it with external monitor?

If the colour corrections are adjusted wrong, it could look like that. has the colours been adjusted with some app?

If factory reset does not help, you should contact BMD.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 7:30 am

Kim Janson wrote:Looks not normal, but difficult to tell of an single picture. How does it look if you record? how is it on bright light? how is it with external monitor?

If the colour corrections are adjusted wrong, it could look like that. has the colours been adjusted with some app?

If factory reset does not help, you should contact BMD.


I'm returning it. It only happens in low light. Bright day light looks good except the awful blue screen.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 7:41 am

Just making sure, ND filter, was it off? ND filter + low light would result noice.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 8:14 am

Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 8:40 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Never? - 1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage. Never use the 2nd gain stage unless you can’t add more light or use faster lenses would be my advice as you are sacrificing DR and changing ISO on each gain stage is not actually altering exposure.
Not sure it’s relevant to this problem though. If focus assist is off are you using the inbuilt LUT’s or an imported one? If it’s not a native LUT it may be an error in how it’s interacting with the display.
If not it’s a fault.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 9:41 am

John Griffin wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Never? - 1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage. Never use the 2nd gain stage unless you can’t add more light or use faster lenses would be my advice as you are sacrificing DR and changing ISO on each gain stage is not actually altering exposure.
Not sure it’s relevant to this problem though. If focus assist is off are you using the inbuilt LUT’s or an imported one? If it’s not a native LUT it may be an error in how it’s interacting with the display.
If not it’s a fault.


John is not only my thought, is suggested from many others more skilled than me, i had pocket 4k and 6k from years, and from day one i see the great difference of noise from 1000 to 1250, if you use 1000 iso is first gain stage, but is higher of first stage.
you miss since half of stop of dr, but DR is better for shadow, also in pockets manual is suggested to do that.
pocket4k DR.png
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John Griffin

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 11:15 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:
John Griffin wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Never? - 1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage. Never use the 2nd gain stage unless you can’t add more light or use faster lenses would be my advice as you are sacrificing DR and changing ISO on each gain stage is not actually altering exposure.
Not sure it’s relevant to this problem though. If focus assist is off are you using the inbuilt LUT’s or an imported one? If it’s not a native LUT it may be an error in how it’s interacting with the display.
If not it’s a fault.


John is not only my thought, is suggested from many others more skilled than me, i had pocket 4k and 6k from years, and from day one i see the great difference of noise from 1000 to 1250, if you use 1000 iso is first gain stage, but is higher of first stage.
you miss since half of stop of dr, but DR is better for shadow, also in pockets manual is suggested to do that.
pocket4k DR.png

I never use ISO within each gain stage as an exposure control when shooting BRAW. With ProRes this is obviously the right choice.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 11:21 am

John Griffin wrote:I never use ISO within each gain stage as an exposure control when shooting BRAW. With ProRes this is obviously the right choice.


but it is precisely in a RAW format that the lack of noise suppression within the camera
makes the dual ISO function a blessing and makes it an advantage in the pockets.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 11:38 am

Mark Foster wrote:
John Griffin wrote:I never use ISO within each gain stage as an exposure control when shooting BRAW. With ProRes this is obviously the right choice.


but it is precisely in a RAW format that the lack of noise suppression within the camera
makes the dual ISO function a blessing and makes it an advantage in the pockets.

Yes dual gain is a great feature and I use it. If I'm running out of light I'll switch up from whatever ISO in the lower stage I'm using to the equivalent in the higher stage to preserve the tonal balance. So 400-3200, 1000-6400 etc. If you go from say 1000-1250 you are not just changing up between gains but also altering the tonal distribution so your image will look very different.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 11:42 am

John Griffin wrote:Yes dual gain is a great feature and I use it. If I'm running out of light I'll switch up from whatever ISO in the lower stage I'm using to the equivalent in the higher stage to preserve the tonal balance. So 400-3200, 1000-6400 etc. If you go from say 1000-1250 you are not just changing up between gains but also altering the tonal distribution so your image will look very different.


but we are already talking about a BMD pocket 4k/6k and not a DSLR?
and yes, the highight/lowlight dynamic is different on dual ISO.
you can control it with exposure and light.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 12:01 pm

But when the ISO is 1000 f2.8 and SA 180 deg, the image should not be that noisy on screen, unless ND filter is on.

And actually even then it should not be that noisy and tintted, I tried to reproduse that with ND x16 and the original 6k
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 12:10 pm

Mark Foster wrote:
John Griffin wrote:Yes dual gain is a great feature and I use it. If I'm running out of light I'll switch up from whatever ISO in the lower stage I'm using to the equivalent in the higher stage to preserve the tonal balance. So 400-3200, 1000-6400 etc. If you go from say 1000-1250 you are not just changing up between gains but also altering the tonal distribution so your image will look very different.


but we are already talking about a BMD pocket 4k/6k and not a DSLR?
and yes, the highight/lowlight dynamic is different on dual ISO.
you can control it with exposure and light.

I'm talking about the the BMD pocket 4k/6k and not a DSLR (well Panasonic have dual gain in then S series)
There are only 3 true 'exposure' controls in the 4k/6k; Shutter, aperture, and choice of high or low gain stages. ISO change within each gain stage (100-1000-/1250-6400) just shifts the midtone and is in essence a 'brightness' control as highlight clipping and shadow noisefloor limits remain the same.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 12:58 pm

John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 1:25 pm

John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."
John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."

No flat out false and BM's statement is not flat out true either as it omits to mention such a step will create a significant change in tonal balance hence why I said if you are at 1000iso you should go to 6400iso and not 1250. BTW I can make my own mind up and am not obliged to believe anyone - least of all some particular people;)
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Donnell Henry

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 2:44 pm

jokafor wrote:
Donnell Henry wrote:Do you have focus assist on? Is the red dancing around like noise? Try disabling the focus assist. It’s worth a try.


The focus assist is on but hard to see because it blends in with the noise. but disabling the focus assist makes no difference. It only improves if I disable the lut assist.

BTW If I disable the focus assist what is the point of owning the camera then. The camera can't do continues auto-focus the only help we get is to use the focus assist.

This camera has issue after issue. Now I understand why a lot of people lack confidence in black magic cameras.


Try one more thing, before you send it in. Turn down the focus assist strength to medium and change it colored lines. Change it back to high if you don’t see anything in focus. Also change the color to blue. If the color changes to blue..its your focus assist, and not necessarily your screen. If it still looks like your pic above (Red noise)after changing settings, then contact support. Just a heads up, if you didn’t already know, turning on focus assist in low light areas also makes my screen look like that as well. It seems to grab unto the noise in low light. Also you mentioned using a Lut. Is it a Lut you created, or the standard Lut that comes with the camera? Using a Lut that crushes the black areas can also make exasperate your situation.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 2:57 pm

John (Griffin), i'm agree with you that jump to 1250 change your picture, Dr distribution is different, like in picture that i posted below, but i talk about noise floor, not about picture, the main post was about noise.

In 6k pro there is a color science 5 which had same gamut on all iso instead of gen 4, and should be easier to obtain same result of picture of 1000 iso, against difficult for pk4 and pk6 like i had, but obviously that involve color correction or lut creation, that like you told could be the reasons of strange noise of that pk6pro.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 3:24 pm

John Griffin wrote:BM's statement is not flat out true either as it omits to mention such a step will create a significant change in tonal balance


There's a chart for that. Are you claiming that you've never seen it or that you don't understand it's function?

Good Luck

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John Griffin

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 4:35 pm

Howard Roll wrote:
John Griffin wrote:BM's statement is not flat out true either as it omits to mention such a step will create a significant change in tonal balance


There's a chart for that. Are you claiming that you've never seen it or that you don't understand it's function?

Good Luck

graph.png

I've seen it and understand it but my issue is with the text advice which makes no mention of the tonal change or that ISO does not change exposure. Only past 6400 when digital gain is gradually applied does it behave like almost every other digital camera out there.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 4:45 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:John (Griffin), i'm agree with you that jump to 1250 change your picture, Dr distribution is different, like in picture that i posted below, but i talk about noise floor, not about picture, the main post was about noise.

In 6k pro there is a color science 5 which had same gamut on all iso instead of gen 4, and should be easier to obtain same result of picture of 1000 iso, against difficult for pk4 and pk6 like i had, but obviously that involve color correction or lut creation, that like you told could be the reasons of strange noise of that pk6pro.

I was not correct in saying noise is better but for best image quality inc DR which is 'marginal' esp on the P4k you should always try to stay within the low gain setting and increase exposure with other means.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:01 pm

John Griffin wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Never? - 1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage. Never use the 2nd gain stage unless you can’t add more light or use faster lenses would be my advice as you are sacrificing DR and changing ISO on each gain stage is not actually altering exposure.
Not sure it’s relevant to this problem though. If focus assist is off are you using the inbuilt LUT’s or an imported one? If it’s not a native LUT it may be an error in how it’s interacting with the display.
If not it’s a fault.


I was using the inbuilt lut. Not even sure you can import lut at this time. I am very much aware of the native iso. I use iso 1000 if am more after the dynamic range and not worried about introducing little noise. So it all depends.

Now if I move the iso from 1000 to 1250 the noise goes away but it still doesn't look normal to me that iso 1000 will render the screen unusable in low light. The light wasn't even that low. I metered the scene with my Fuji xt4 and it was reading iso 800, shutter 48, @f/2.8

I never had this issue with my previous 6K I sold to get this pro version.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:11 pm

jokafor wrote:
John Griffin wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Without see false color to understand light exposure is difficult to judge. But seems too much noise.

Anyway, never use 1000 iso, is the last and noisier step of first native iso, is better to use 1250 which is quietest iso of second native iso.
Remember that Blackmagic Design never do denoiser in camera like common dslr or camcorder be cause you have a better option in Resolve studio which is fast and you judge later in front of a big monitor.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Never? - 1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage. Never use the 2nd gain stage unless you can’t add more light or use faster lenses would be my advice as you are sacrificing DR and changing ISO on each gain stage is not actually altering exposure.
Not sure it’s relevant to this problem though. If focus assist is off are you using the inbuilt LUT’s or an imported one? If it’s not a native LUT it may be an error in how it’s interacting with the display.
If not it’s a fault.




I never had this issue with my previous 6K I sold to get this pro version.

It does then look like a fault.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:34 pm

John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."


Bm manual is very flawed if you are shooting concert events, with scores on stage, or piano keyboards. Going from 1000 iso to just 1250 can result in severe clipping, because as far as the highlights are concerned you actually jump to 3200 iso ... sometimes we have to close the iris three stops to get rid of the clipping. Sometimes it is better to stay at 1000 iso !
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:36 pm

Kim Janson wrote:But when the ISO is 1000 f2.8 and SA 180 deg, the image should not be that noisy on screen, unless ND filter is on.

And actually even then it should not be that noisy and tintted, I tried to reproduse that with ND x16 and the original 6k


Yours looked very normal. ND filter was turned off on mine. With ND filter the whole screen goes crazy on mine.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:42 pm

Yannick Willox wrote:[Bm manual is very flawed if you are shooting concert events, with scores on stage, or piano keyboards. Going from 1000 iso to just 1250 can result in severe clipping, because as far as the highlights are concerned you actually jump to 3200 iso ... sometimes we have to close the iris three stops to get rid of the clipping. Sometimes it is better to stay at 1000 iso !


Nobody disputes that the allocation of stops above and below middle-grey changes with ISO levels, and that you lose nominal highlight headroom going from 1000 to 1250 when exposing for middle-grey.

The original claim was that 1250 is noisier than 1000. Period. Not an earth-shaking matter, but clearly an error. That's all.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 5:55 pm

Yannick Willox wrote:
John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."


Bm manual is very flawed if you are shooting concert events, with scores on stage, or piano keyboards. Going from 1000 iso to just 1250 can result in severe clipping, because as far as the highlights are concerned you actually jump to 3200 iso ... sometimes we have to close the iris three stops to get rid of the clipping. Sometimes it is better to stay at 1000 iso !


Yes going from iso 1000 to 1250 may result in clipping your image. You have to decide what's more important at that point or situation. If you don't care about noise and want to preserve your highlights stay at iso 1000 but if noise is what you're worried about then stay on ISO 1250 knowing your image may clip the highlights but you will get a cleaner image.
Last edited by jokafor on Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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David Chapman

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 6:15 pm

Not sure which thread, but it was mentioned that the new 7.3 update will also address focus peaking display in low light with high ISO.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun Apr 25, 2021 8:00 pm

Yannick Willox wrote:Bm manual is very flawed if you are shooting concert events, with scores on stage, or piano keyboards. Going from 1000 iso to just 1250 can result in severe clipping


This information is clearly dispayed in the graph, "severe" clipping looks to be three stops.

Good Luck

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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 12:05 am

This video gives a fantastic explanation of the dual gain stage dynamic range info that is presented in the chart from the manual:
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 1:58 am

John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."


yea for real I was like what the heck is this guy talking about. 1250 is WAY less noisy than 1000.
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jokafor

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 2:12 am

James Harkness wrote:
John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."


yea for real I was like what the heck is this guy talking about. 1250 is WAY less noisy than 1000.


Your statement is correct only if you're looking for a cleaner image but if you're worried about clipping the highlights better to stay in iso 1000. You can always clean out the noise in post. So it doesn't make sense when some people say they never use iso 1000 in low light. It all depends.
Last edited by jokafor on Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Griffin

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 5:42 am

James Harkness wrote:
John Paines wrote:
John Griffin wrote:1000 ISO is less noisy than 1250 in BRAW as it’s still using the lower gain stage.


This is flat out false, as you would know if you actually tested it. If you don't believe anyone here -- and this isn't the first time -- read the manual:

"If you are shooting in conditions where you have a choice between
ISO 1,000 or 1,250, we suggest closing down one stop on your lens’ iris so that you can
select ISO 1,250 as it will engage the higher native ISO and provide much cleaner results."


yea for real I was like what the heck is this guy talking about. 1250 is WAY less noisy than 1000.

Given enough light the lower gain stage of any camera will be less noisy and have higher DR than a higher gain stage. More noise only applies when you run out of other exposure controls and are forced to raise the gain - (that's the heck what I'm talking about even if I didn't make the best job of saying it)
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RyLo2797

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 2:16 pm

@jokafor

You mentioned you metered it but you also mentioned you used ND. What ND are you using in the photo? How far underexposed are you?
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jokafor

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon Apr 26, 2021 7:11 pm

RyLo2797 wrote:@jokafor

You mentioned you metered it but you also mentioned you used ND. What ND are you using in the photo? How far underexposed are you?


I did not use ND filter. I will say half a stop underexposed. If I change the iso from 1000 to 1250 the screen cleans up. Half a stop underexposed should not render the screen useless.

I returned the camera this morning just to find out that Black magic has released a firmware update.
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Weston Woodbury

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Re: Please is this normal

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 4:58 pm

We're renting a Pocket 6K Pro with the same issue right now.

Update to to 7.3 DID NOT solve it. Still peaking all over in low light/shadowy scenes, even on just Medium - at ISO 800.

The original Pocket 6K (non pro) side by side is wildly different on 100% matching settings if you shoot the same shot. No peaking weirdness, overall a darker image more natural looking image, and raw (no LUT) is not nearly as flat looking, Pro might even be much noiser as a result at same settings. Both are on Gen 5 color, 'Film'.

I wonder if all the 6K Pros look like this or do we have fluke cams with something not happening right in the sensor/processing??

Don't have time to upload right now or try post corrections. Just adding here as to what we're seeing... :/
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Lee Mackreath

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Re: Please is this normal

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 6:29 pm

This is what I am seeing on my 6k pro also, sorry for the crude video

The noise is present only when the focus assist is on and shows up on any underexposed areas... and is awful up to 1000 iso then goes at 1200 iso

This green noise is not representing where my actual
Focus is and just shows up anywhere underexposed..

Thoughts?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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roger.magnusson

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Re: Please is this normal

PostTue Apr 27, 2021 10:01 pm

Isn't that just the focus peaking doing what it's supposed to? Highlight the pixels/areas that are sharp (including noise).

While there is some denoising in these cameras it's not as aggressive as in many other cameras. Every ISO setting won't be suitable for every exposure. The noise goes away at 1250 because it's part of the second native ISO range.
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Weston Woodbury

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Re: Please is this normal

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 12:43 am

roger.magnusson wrote:Isn't that just the focus peaking doing what it's supposed to? Highlight the pixels/areas that are sharp (including noise).

While there is some denoising in these cameras it's not as aggressive as in many other cameras. Every ISO setting won't be suitable for every exposure. The noise goes away at 1250 because it's part of the second native ISO range.


I would say NO. Because this is not how peaking behaves in the dark at normal ISO ranges (nothing crazy) on any other camera including the original Pocket 6K or UMP range.

I've seen it happen on UMP if you kick the peaking setting to "high", but never at medium, even at 1600 ISO +.

The fact I can be on the same settings with the two versions of the pocket 6K side by side, and the original behaves normally, makes me think it's probably being a bug or (hopefully not) bad hardware.

In shooting more with them side by side today, it almost seems like the new Pro version is doing something internally to try to be 1-stop more sensitive. We started putting 1 extra ND into the Pro, and the cameras now are matching much more closely (at same f-stop and all settings matched). Perhaps non-coincidentally, the Pro seems significantly noiser at matching settings as well. Probably just because the original 6K is darker at the same settings so it's hiding the noise more? The Pro sensor might be more "sensitive" hence more noise hence peaking not working correctly if it was designed for previous sensor, like the thresholds are set wrong. Working theory... food for thought.

Sounds particularly true if indeed BMD has acknowledged this are promising a software fix.

:mrgreen: :geek: :ugeek:
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jokafor

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Re: Please is this normal

PostWed Apr 28, 2021 1:47 am

Weston Woodbury wrote:
roger.magnusson wrote:Isn't that just the focus peaking doing what it's supposed to? Highlight the pixels/areas that are sharp (including noise).

While there is some denoising in these cameras it's not as aggressive as in many other cameras. Every ISO setting won't be suitable for every exposure. The noise goes away at 1250 because it's part of the second native ISO range.


I would say NO. Because this is not how peaking behaves in the dark at normal ISO ranges (nothing crazy) on any other camera including the original Pocket 6K or UMP range.

I've seen it happen on UMP if you kick the peaking setting to "high", but never at medium, even at 1600 ISO +.

The fact I can be on the same settings with the two versions of the pocket 6K side by side, and the original behaves normally, makes me think it's probably being a bug or (hopefully not) bad hardware.

In shooting more with them side by side today, it almost seems like the new Pro version is doing something internally to try to be 1-stop more sensitive. We started putting 1 extra ND into the Pro, and the cameras now are matching much more closely (at same f-stop and all settings matched). Perhaps non-coincidentally, the Pro seems significantly noiser at matching settings as well. Probably just because the original 6K is darker at the same settings so it's hiding the noise more? The Pro sensor might be more "sensitive" hence more noise hence peaking not working correctly if it was designed for previous sensor, like the thresholds are set wrong. Working theory... food for thought.

Sounds particularly true if indeed BMD has acknowledged this are promising a software fix.

:mrgreen: :geek: :ugeek:


I wish it was the focus peaking doing its thing but not. Also, I wish had seen your test before returning mine. I thought mine had a hardware issue not seen on others.
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Weston Woodbury

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 12:05 am

It may be a QC issue. We were given another Pro by a rental shop in liue of a non pro not being available, and that one seemed more normal exposure wise. That said, the peaking still seemed overboard/much more aggressive, had to turn it to Low where as the regulars were on the normal Medium setting, on the Pro. We ran them in an Atem Mini environment for the more recent show, so matched them very closely without too much effort, and didn't see the same "1-stop" difference I saw before. The on-camera screens look wildly different though even after color/ting calibration. The Pro's nit brightness is nice, but the actual accuracy of the image seems significantly closer on the original. We were shooting white cyc and everything was ran to a calibrated FSI; the Pro's screen make the white look totally blown out and overly contrasty which wasn't even close to the actual image. More food for thought.
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 12:44 am

Weston Woodbury wrote:the actual accuracy of the image seems significantly closer on the original. We were shooting white cyc and everything was ran to a calibrated FSI; the Pro's screen make the white look totally blown out and overly contrasty which wasn't even close to the actual image. More food for thought.
Yeah, that is because it’s a 1500 nit LCD. You can either have an LCD that gives an accurate SDR reference image like the FSI monitor, or you can have a display that is visible in bright sunlight. It’s not physically possible to have a single display that does both at the same time. You may get a more accurate SDR image by reducing the brightness down to nearly zero, but it still won't really look like the FSI and with the brightness turned down that far you won't be able to see the screen in daylight. The camera LCD is really there for focus + framing + menu control. For setting accurate exposure, it's best to use the false color overlay.
Last edited by Jamie LeJeune on Sun May 16, 2021 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 9:12 am

James Harkness wrote:yea for real I was like what the heck is this guy talking about. 1250 is WAY less noisy than 1000.


Exactly. Maybe he set the 1250 ISO in Post while using the first gain stage while recording BRAW? THEN it would make sense.
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John Griffin

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 9:40 am

Tim Lota wrote:
James Harkness wrote:yea for real I was like what the heck is this guy talking about. 1250 is WAY less noisy than 1000.


Exactly. Maybe he set the 1250 ISO in Post while using the first gain stage while recording BRAW? THEN it would make sense.

You can’t set higher than 1000 in the raw develop module in resolve if you shot in the lower gain stage.
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Tim Lota

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 10:59 am

John Griffin wrote:You can’t set higher than 1000 in the raw develop module in resolve if you shot in the lower gain stage.


Oh, ok. Then I don't get it. ;)
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rstreber

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Re: Please is this normal

PostSun May 16, 2021 2:51 pm

All three of my P4Ks started doing this after updating to 7.3, highlighting noise in shadows in a way that they never did before the update. Interestingly in my scenario (which is a fairly low-light recording studio interior), the "noise peaks" reliably go way when I switch from 1000 to 1250 ISO.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Please is this normal

PostMon May 17, 2021 1:22 am

1000 ISO is noisy and your studio seems to be too dark then.
If you want some dark areas, don't starve your sensor of light. Pull the shadows down in post or with a LUT if needed for live recording.
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
Resolve Studio 17.2.1 and Fusion Studio 17.2.1, macOS 11.3.1
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