Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

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Ahmed Ghaffar

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Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSun Jun 13, 2021 9:36 pm

Hello,

I' want to start building my set of lenses over a period of time, I have certain requirements for my ideal lens set and I'm currently in-between the Sigma Cine Primes and the Zeiss CP3.

I've been using the Sigma Art 18-35 Photo version and I love that lens, my only gripe is the extremely short focus throw. Some people complain about the Sigma Art series as being too sharp or clinical, I don't mind their look at all. I prefer having a sharp looking clean or neutral image that I can later add to or "dirty up" in post as opposed to a lens that shoots that way.

I also want to future proof my lenses to an extent, therefore they must cover full-frame sensors in case I change my camera in a few years. I also prefer fast lenses, as I love shooting in low-light situations.

Sigma Cine Pros:
- T1.5
- Clean neutral sharp image
- Price for image quality
- Decent CA control
- Resolves 6-8K resolution

Sigma Cine Cons:
- 180 degree focus throw (the photo version is 120, so not far off)
- Non-interchangeable lens mounts
- Slightly heavier then the CP3
- Some breathing on certain focal length

Zeiss CP3 Pros:
- 300 degree focus throw
- 14 bladed iris for smooth bokeh
- Lightweight for gimbal use
- I like the image quality so far based on online videos, haven't tried them out yet
- Less focus breathing than the Sigma Primes
- 46.3 mm image circle
- Interchangeable Lens Mount

Zeiss CP3 Cons:
- T2.1 not T1.5 like the Sigmas
- Over 1000 $ on average more expensive per lens than the Sigma Cine Primes
- The 15,18, & 21mm are all T2.9 not T2.1 like the rest of the set.
- Suffers from breathing as well as the Sigmas

That's most of what I can think of so far. I have to rent both sets out first to try them before making a decision. However, I would love to hear from fellow users here on what they have used and their experiences with both. Specially the 180 degree focus throw on the Sigma Primes, I'm using a Tilta Nucleus so I just want to make sure focus pulling is not as twitchy as on the 18-35 Art photo version.

I also considered the Canon CN-E, but I didn't like the green fringing or outline on the Bokeh. I thought about the Tokina Vista Primes, but they are almost double the price of the Sigma Primes per lens, as well as double the weight.
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John Brawley

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 5:40 am

I have a mix of CP3's and CP2s. I have all the focal lengths from 15mm to 135mm, and the Macro.

Very underrated lenses. I actually got the CP2 "superspeed" versions of the 35mm 50mm and 85mm that are all T1.5 - I'm not sure they make these new anymore, but you could find the T1.5 versions second hand if that matters to you.
https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-acc ... l-pl-mount

These lenses are all very lightweight. Makes a huge difference when hand held or trying to balance a gimbal. Huge advantage.

The all have lens meta data even in PL.

Interchangeable mounts. Again, a big deal. I have PL, EF and MFT mounts for my lenses. A great advantage. You can now get E and Nikon. I'm hoping maybe LPL soon. And they are shimable too. Again for EF mount, not many lenses allow this.

300 degree focus action. These days with remote focus it's less of an issue, BUT, it's still useful to have more precision.

I think they have a similar look, and maybe the Zeiss is a bit less....polished ? The breathing is also pretty controlled in my view.

I also have the little known about CP 50 Makro. I actually bought a second one. It's a great lens, super sharp and it's probably the most used lens I've had over the last 10 years....

JB
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WahWay

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 8:50 am

The Sigma Cine Zoom 18-35/T2 and 50-100/T2 like their stills counterparts covers S35 only not FF.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 3:06 pm

Ahmed Ghaffar wrote:That's most of what I can think of so far. I have to rent both sets out first to try them before making a decision.


I would suggest including both 28mm lenses in your rental, the 28mm Zeiss CP is my favorite from the set.

John Brawley wrote:I think they have a similar look, and maybe the Zeiss is a bit less....polished ? The breathing is also pretty controlled in my view.


Yeah, I would describe the less polished look of the Zeiss CP as "classic." The Zeiss set doesn't have a 40mm, which isn't a deal breaker, but I've found myself renting the Zeiss 40mm Ultra Prime.

Have you used any of Sigma yet on the 12K? I was curious about them more for 12K stills, I've just rented the Sigma 28mm and 40mm, the detail is certainly there with less distortion but the subject separates from the background less attractively to me. It's a bit more cut out but not like the subject is on a green screen like the Xeen.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 8:40 pm

John Brawley wrote:I have a mix of CP3's and CP2s. I have all the focal lengths from 15mm to 135mm, and the Macro.

Very underrated lenses. I actually got the CP2 "superspeed" versions of the 35mm 50mm and 85mm that are all T1.5 - I'm not sure they make these new anymore, but you could find the T1.5 versions second hand if that matters to you.
https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-acc ... l-pl-mount

These lenses are all very lightweight. Makes a huge difference when hand held or trying to balance a gimbal. Huge advantage.

The all have lens meta data even in PL.

Interchangeable mounts. Again, a big deal. I have PL, EF and MFT mounts for my lenses. A great advantage. You can now get E and Nikon. I'm hoping maybe LPL soon. And they are shimable too. Again for EF mount, not many lenses allow this.

300 degree focus action. These days with remote focus it's less of an issue, BUT, it's still useful to have more precision.

I think they have a similar look, and maybe the Zeiss is a bit less....polished ? The breathing is also pretty controlled in my view.

I also have the little known about CP 50 Makro. I actually bought a second one. It's a great lens, super sharp and it's probably the most used lens I've had over the last 10 years....

JB


Thanks John, I did look up some of the CP2 superspeeds as well. I believe they are optically the same as the CP3 with the exception of the lower T-stops. I remember watching a video on YouTube where someone said that the Zeiss Supreme Primes is basically a Super Speed version of the CP3. Don't know how accurate that is.

I'm starting to lean more towards the CP3 than the Sigma Primes. I found this channel on Youtube that does a lot of comparisons between different lenses at different apertures, https://www.youtube.com/c/ShareGrid/videos

I've looked at his videos of the Zeiss CP3, Sigma FF Primes, Tokina Vista, Tokina Vista One, Canon CN-E. I found the Zeiss CP3 to be the most pleasing image to my eyes, followed by the Tokina Vista/Vista One, then the Sigma FF Primes, then the Canon CN-E.

My main gripe with the Sigma Primes is the 180 degree focus rotation. I wish they went with 300 degrees instead. I own a Laowa 12mm T2.9 Zero-D cine lens and it has 270 degrees focus rotation, pulling focus on that is way more accurate and well damped than the Sigma Art photo at 18mm with only 120 degrees focus rotation.

I'll look up the Zeiss CP Macro you mentioned.

Ryan Earl wrote:
Ahmed Ghaffar wrote:That's most of what I can think of so far. I have to rent both sets out first to try them before making a decision.


I would suggest including both 28mm lenses in your rental, the 28mm Zeiss CP is my favorite from the set.


I'll try to make sure I get the 28mm in the set I rent, thanks

WahWay wrote:The Sigma Cine Zoom 18-35/T2 and 50-100/T2 like their stills counterparts covers S35 only not FF.


Yes but I was looking into the Sigma Cine Primes not the zooms which cover full frame sensors with an image circle of 43.3mm I believe.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 8:51 pm

Hi Ahmed.

No way are CPs the same as Supremes. I own both and the supremes are very different.

As I understand most of the differences between CP2 and CP3 are mechanical. Little bit smaller, better markings on the barrel and the Xtended meta data options. Optically they are very similar.

I did a blind test a few years ago. This is Zeiss CP2, Panavision Primos and SLR magic APOs.

You’ll notice the CPs (C in this test) are cooler, very sharp and hold their own well against the Primos.



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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostMon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 pm

John Brawley wrote:Hi Ahmed.

No way are CPs the same as Supremes. I own both and the supremes are very different.

As I understand most of the differences between CP2 and CP3 are mechanical. Little bit smaller, better markings on the barrel and the Xtended meta data options. Optically they are very similar.

I did a blind test a few years ago. This is Zeiss CP2, Panavision Primos and SLR magic APOs.

You’ll notice the CPs (C in this test) are cooler, very sharp and hold their own well against the Primos.





Hi John,

Yeah it makes sense that the Supreme Primes would be very different than the CP3 lenses.

I watched your lens test video, I like the sharpness and flares of the CP2 lenses, and they do hold their own well against the Primos as you stated.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 2:56 am

Ahmed Ghaffar wrote:
John Brawley wrote:I did a blind test a few years ago. This is Zeiss CP2, Panavision Primos and SLR magic APOs.

You’ll notice the CPs (C in this test) are cooler, very sharp and hold their own well against the Primos.


This test actually sold me on the SLR Magic APOs (However, I got a set of the APO MicroPrimes). I had a QC issue with the 32mm, but that's resolved. I used to have a 35mm CP2 T1.5 SuperSpeed, but the character of the APOs is really surprisingly nice and doesn't look like a "new lens." A bit too soft and bloomy wide open for my taste, but they look great at T2.5 onward. I think that you mentioned that you mixed the APO lenses up with Primos.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:
Ahmed Ghaffar wrote:
John Brawley wrote:I did a blind test a few years ago. This is Zeiss CP2, Panavision Primos and SLR magic APOs.

You’ll notice the CPs (C in this test) are cooler, very sharp and hold their own well against the Primos.


This test actually sold me on the SLR Magic APOs (However, I got a set of the APO MicroPrimes). I had a QC issue with the 32mm, but that's resolved. I used to have a 35mm CP2 T1.5 SuperSpeed, but the character of the APOs is really surprisingly nice and doesn't look like a "new lens." A bit too soft and bloomy wide open for my taste, but they look great at T2.5 onward. I think that you mentioned that you mixed the APO lenses up with Primos.


A is SLR Magic APO Prime - Warm, subtle, Cooke like..
B is Primo - Warm pretty leica like
C is Zeiss CP - Cool, sharp contrasty.


JB
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Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am

Like Scott, I went with the SLR Magic APO Primes, but the original set, not the MicroPrimes.

Favourite lens is the 32mm APO Prime on the BMPCC4K which I use with the Anamorphot 1.33x-65 at T2.4-2.8.

I’m thinking my favourite spherical zoom would be the Tokina 25-75mm T2.9 if I owned it. They both seem to be modern ‘vintage’ with good control of chromatic aberration.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 am

rick.lang wrote:Favorite lens is the 32mm APO Prime on the BMPCC4K which I use with the Anamorphot 1.33x-65 at T2.4-2.8.


I really like the 32mm, as well. I, however, am really liking the 50mm lately for CUs. My post has probably hijacked this thread since the OP is wanting a super sharp, contrasty lens.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 2:18 am

I've been intrigued by the Sigma Cinema Primes for a long time. They are definitely great lenses from the footage I've seen. I'd be most interested in the newer versions with /i Technology. I'd also love to compare them against the DZOFilm Vespids I now have.

The Sigma Cinema Zooms need serious updating. The DZOFilm Pictor Zooms proved that to me. But I do have a feeling that the Sigma Cinema Primes are still far above in quality. So if Sigma updates the zooms I'd be pretty pumped.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm

Scott Stacy wrote:
rick.lang wrote:Favorite lens is the 32mm APO Prime on the BMPCC4K which I use with the Anamorphot 1.33x-65 at T2.4-2.8.


I really like the 32mm, as well. I, however, am really liking the 50mm lately for CUs. My post has probably hijacked this thread since the OP is wanting a super sharp, contrasty lens.


On the contrary, I'm finding the discussion very interesting and a bit educational as well. I still like the look of the Sigma's but I'm leaning more now towards the Zeiss CP3.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostThu Jun 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Ahmed Ghaffar wrote:On the contrary, I'm finding the discussion very interesting and a bit educational as well. I still like the look of the Sigma's but I'm leaning more now towards the Zeiss CP3.


Scott Stacy wrote:I really like the 32mm, as well. I, however, am really liking the 50mm lately for CUs. My post has probably hijacked this thread since the OP is wanting a super sharp, contrasty lens.


The trouble is finding a place to rent the SLR Magic APOs, depending on where you are ShareGrid might be a good option to try them out.

I think they are still plenty sharp, especially resolving details beyond 8K and worth finding out if the character is something that interests you vs the Zeiss.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 12:51 am

Yes it is a problem renting the SLRs so I took a punt and bought the 32 APO micro 2.1based on recommendations here.

It is a beautiful lens in a subtle way. Magic indeed. Rich colours, lovely way light is dispersed and sharp enough for my tastes. I will get the 50 next. But who knows whether any particular cinematographer will like them. Yes there are of course the objective elements such as sharpness, edge fall off, chromatic aberration which can be measured etc but possibly subjective factors matter probably more. Some people don't like the name and are worried that they won't be able to rent them or sell them if they don't like them but they are not considerations for me.
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Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 1:03 am

Hey, Robert, congratulations!

The lens has character and creates a ‘normal’ image on the 4.6K sensor and ‘long normal’ on the Pocket cameras which I like for narrative work. And it behaves like a 24mm lens (horizontal view) paired with the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot which is my go-to prime lens combination.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 3:26 am

Robert Castiglione wrote:It is a beautiful lens in a subtle way. Magic indeed. Rich colours, lovely way light is dispersed and sharp enough for my tastes.


Congratulations! You will love the 50mm.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 4:25 am

Thanks. I am really enjoying shooting with it.

It is impressive what SLR Magic has done. The lens also feels really solid - just that great heavy metal and glass feeling that I love. Focus gears and aperture are fluid and have just the right resistance.

At the wide end 25mm will be enough for me. However, I hope that they extend the range as I would like a 135 as well.

I have also been experimenting with medium format glass and in particular the Mamiya 645 lenses which have got such good wraps. Less impressed unfortunately.

Hope I haven't hijacked the original topic.

Cheers,
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 5:10 am

Robert, the 135mm and 18mm are a couple of years overdue with no indication if and when they will appear. In the meantime, the lighter Microprimes seem to have all the attention.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 6:28 am

John Brawley wrote:
A is SLR Magic APO Prime - Warm, subtle, Cooke like..
B is Primo - Warm pretty leica like
C is Zeiss CP - Cool, sharp contrasty.


JB


What about K35/Canon FD?
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 2:39 pm

WahWay wrote:
What about K35/Canon FD?


What about them ?

Here’s some examples of the K35. You’ll have to guess which lens code they are.

Personally I think they’re way over rated. A set of K35s is going for more than 100k now. See if you can see the signature look from this.



They are mushy, bloomy, flare in really unflattering ways, especially around point sources. To me they look soft, but not in a good, vintage lens way, more like a the lens needs a service way. Not represented in the test but they are very different wide open to stopped down a few stops as well.

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 2:53 pm

Not use K35, my only experience was with Canon FD which is suppose to be optically similar.
I never experience mushy bloom or flare effect even wide open but when using cheap EF converter it did cause blooming effect until it is stepped up to f2.8. For me FD look warmer and more organic than modern Canon EF and Zeiss Classic stills and Milvus lenses.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 6:10 pm

John Brawley wrote:
WahWay wrote:Not represented in the test but they are very different wide open to stopped down a few stops as well.

JB

This is the main characteristic of the FD lenses.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 8:29 am

Just reviving this threat and again going off topic to say I have now received the 50mm SLR magic and it is a winner. Love the character of these lenses. Lower contrast and very creamy wide open. Colours are rendered in a beautiful way. Has some breathing but I can live with it.

Unfortunately the 32mm had a mechanical issue and I have to return it to get another but that is ok.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 5:07 pm

timbutt2 wrote:I've been intrigued by the Sigma Cinema Primes for a long time. They are definitely great lenses from the footage I've seen. I'd be most interested in the newer versions with /i Technology. I'd also love to compare them against the DZOFilm Vespids I now have.


I'd love to hear (and see) some of your opinions of the Vespids. I just got a wide Pictor (planning to add its complement to my kit later this summer) yesterday, and though I didn't get to shoot anything with it, I did play with it a bit and I'm impressed with its build an ergonomics.

Most of the Sigma Cine primes were rehoused ART photo lenses, so their optical quality is stellar as one might expect, but they breathe more than I'd like and that probably explains their shorter than standard focus throw. The same was true of the zooms; great image quality, a lot of breathing.

The Sigma Cinema Zooms need serious updating. The DZOFilm Pictor Zooms proved that to me. But I do have a feeling that the Sigma Cinema Primes are still far above in quality. So if Sigma updates the zooms I'd be pretty pumped.


Part of why the Tokinas are bigger, heavier, and more expensive than the Sigmas is that unlike the Sigmas, they are designed as cine lenses, and don't breathe.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 5:41 pm

I've been using Sigma Cine Primes for a couple years now and I absolutely love them.

I wouldn't shy away from the 180 degree focus throw - it feels great manually or remote focus. It's an understandable concern but something that doesn't need overthought once you have your hands on it.

The CP3's deserve respect but short of desperately needing them for their size, I'd grab the Sigma Primes first every time.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 7:51 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:I'd love to hear (and see) some of your opinions of the Vespids. I just got a wide Pictor (planning to add its complement to my kit later this summer) yesterday, and though I didn't get to shoot anything with it, I did play with it a bit and I'm impressed with its build an ergonomics.

Then you will love to hear that I already filmed my review of the Vespids a few months back. I've since shot more with the lenses and gotten some great looking footage. I'm very happy with the "My Medicine" music video for Sally Sweets.



More to come soon. I plan on doing a short film with them as soon as my eyes fully recover from PRK LASIK, which I got two weeks ago. So the eyes are improving every day.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 9:41 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
timbutt2 wrote:I've been intrigued by the Sigma Cinema Primes for a long time. They are definitely great lenses from the footage I've seen. I'd be most interested in the newer versions with /i Technology. I'd also love to compare them against the DZOFilm Vespids I now have.


I'd love to hear (and see) some of your opinions of the Vespids. I just got a wide Pictor (planning to add its complement to my kit later this summer) yesterday, and though I didn't get to shoot anything with it, I did play with it a bit and I'm impressed with its build an ergonomics.

Most of the Sigma Cine primes were rehoused ART photo lenses, so their optical quality is stellar as one might expect, but they breathe more than I'd like and that probably explains their shorter than standard focus throw. The same was true of the zooms; great image quality, a lot of breathing.

The Sigma Cinema Zooms need serious updating. The DZOFilm Pictor Zooms proved that to me. But I do have a feeling that the Sigma Cinema Primes are still far above in quality. So if Sigma updates the zooms I'd be pretty pumped.


Part of why the Tokinas are bigger, heavier, and more expensive than the Sigmas is that unlike the Sigmas, they are designed as cine lenses, and don't breathe.


I heard that Sigma wanted to find a middle ground with the Cine Primes and Zooms, to make them useable for a single operator not using a follow focus, hence the 180 degree focus throw.

Yeah the Tokina's are built from the ground up as Cine lenses unlike the Sigma's, Canon CN-E and even the Zeiss CP3 I believe. I love the Tokina's but the price and weight are quite prohibitive.

Samuel S wrote:I've been using Sigma Cine Primes for a couple years now and I absolutely love them.

I wouldn't shy away from the 180 degree focus throw - it feels great manually or remote focus. It's an understandable concern but something that doesn't need overthought once you have your hands on it.

The CP3's deserve respect but short of desperately needing them for their size, I'd grab the Sigma Primes first every time.


Interesting, I'll give them a try first to judge the 180 degree focus rotation. What makes you say you'll grab the Sigma Primes over the CP3's every time?
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 1:28 am

Metabones now makes a special speed booster for the Zeiss CP.2 CZ.2 and CP.3 PL mount lenses to use with Blackmagic MFT cameras. They must think that this combination of lens and camera has a lot to offer.

ARRI PL Lens to BMPCC4K T CINE Speed Booster® ULTRA 0.71x

https://www.metabones.com/products/deta ... PL-M43-BT2

One of the advantages of the BMPCC 4K is that any ARRI PL lens can be adapted to it. This is something that an EF mount camera cannot claim.
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Robert Castiglione

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 5:26 am

I have never used the Sigmas but are they an example of the modern kind of "flat glass" look? i.e no fall off edge to edge and technically perfect?

If people are interested please have a look at this by Shane Hurlbut comparing modern lens technology to older and in particular the Leica Summilux and the Cooke S4s. Basically, the argument seems to be that modern glass tends to flatten the image with a resultant loss of three dimensionality. Is there anything in this claim or is it nonsense? here is the video:



I opening this up for discussion for those interested. If it is true, then it suggests that the obsession with edge to edge sharpness might be misconceived.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 3:13 pm

Coming from a post effects background, I don't agree with this flatness thing for the most part as far as making it a reason to use a lens or not and many times others and myself can't really see that difference between lenses in that way. It tends to be easier for me to see aberrations, lack of sharpness, doubling effects, onion skinning, that kind of thing. I would rather have lenses I can add distortion or softness or other effects to than have it already baked in for the most part... But I'm probably in the minority in this forum.

Much of the time the dimensionality as far as depth is concerned appears to be distortion and sharpness fall off from the center and usually measurements of distortion and sharpness fall off in these lenses showing dimensionality reinforce this. I find this most obvious in my own tests with the Canon 50mm F1.2 rendering wide open compared with a flatter, better corrected Sigma Art. More dimensionality on the Canon, but also has it's own host of issues not shown by more corrected lenses like softness, aberrations, distorted lines. I can however make the Sigma look like the Canon but not easy the other way around. Mustache distortion makes some wide angle shots look very interesting and some Zeiss WA's have that.

You can "fake" this quite a bit in post with a variety of techniques. It's harder I've found to match the affect of the coatings of Zeiss or Cooke and how to affects the image more than the dimensionality... But that's just my opinion.

I'll say though that the only lenses I have been able to accurately guess correctly multiple times without a side by side or being prompted tends to be Cookes... But it's more to do with the whole image and not just one aspect. Can't put my finger on it. Probably the way light and skin is affected...

Anyways... Good luck!
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostThu Jul 01, 2021 4:00 pm

Robert Castiglione wrote:Basically, the argument seems to be that modern glass tends to flatten the image with a resultant loss of three dimensionality. Is there anything in this claim or is it nonsense?

Yes, this is true. This is one reason why I like my vintage Cooke lenses, and the classic look of the MFT Voigtlander Nokton primes (they have made lenses using Cooke patents in their long history). I assumed that it was a part of the Cooke look that stems from using fewer elements (the original 1890s triplet had only 3), that did not require anti-reflective coatings to control the internal reflections from so many elements. The Sigma 18-35mm Art lens has 18 elements. The Panasonic Lumix 12-35mm MFT lens has 14 elements, and shows it's flatness compared to a 1958 Cooke Ivotal F/1.4 1 inch in this comparison on my Og BMPCC:

Here is a comparison of Cooke lenses on an original BMPCC to a Panasonic G X Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 Asph. lens.

Re: Does the glass make that much of a difference?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107746&p=596809&hilit=Cooke#p596809

This three dimensionality is present in this still from THE DRAUGHTSMAN'S CONTRACT, were shot with a Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm, the factory S16 conversion of the 1975 Cooke Varokinetal 9-50mm.
DraughtsmansCooke10_4-54.png
Cooke Varokinetal 10.4-52mm
DraughtsmansCooke10_4-54.png (571.07 KiB) Viewed 1271 times

This image is from the original Meyer Optik Görlitz Primotar 50mm f/2.8 (M42) lens from 1952-1959. The Primotar is still considered a triplet design; 3 groups, but the last one has a bonded pair, so 4 elements in 3 groups as a Tessar. The lens elements are very thin, small, and uncoated resulting in maximum light transmission. Edge falloff is very soft and glowy, and makes the bokeh look better than many faster lenses, or at least in a different, unique way.
GorlitzPrimotarF2_8A.jpg
Meyer Optik Görlitz Primotar 50mm f/2.8
GorlitzPrimotarF2_8A.jpg (190.4 KiB) Viewed 1271 times

In 2020 this lens was re-issued due to it's popularity. It's available in most popular mounts. This one will set you back €899.
Meyer Optik Görlitz Trioplan II 50mm f/2.8
GorlitzTrioplanIIF2_850mm.jpg
Meyer Optik Görlitz Trioplan II 50mm f/2.8
GorlitzTrioplanIIF2_850mm.jpg (117.97 KiB) Viewed 1271 times
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Robert Castiglione

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostFri Jul 02, 2021 8:27 am

That was very wrong of you to mention the Meyer Optik because now I may to buy some.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostFri Jul 02, 2021 8:49 am

Then try to get one from the old times on German Ebay. The remake is not that great and these lenses are specialty lenses and definitely not good for all scenes. I love my Primoplan 58mm f1.9.

Some Russian vintage glass is similar, BTW.
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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostFri Jul 02, 2021 8:54 am

The good news is that an original Meyer Optik Görlitz Primotar 50mm f/2.8 lens can be had for less than $300 USD. Soviet era lenses were state subsidized, and are bargains.

The bad news is that you're now not the only one who knows this.

GorlitzPrimotarF2_8.jpg
Meyer Optik Görlitz Primotar 50mm f/2.8
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostFri Jul 02, 2021 8:56 pm

Robert Castiglione wrote:I have never used the Sigmas but are they an example of the modern kind of "flat glass" look? i.e no fall off edge to edge and technically perfect?

If people are interested please have a look at this by Shane Hurlbut comparing modern lens technology to older and in particular the Leica Summilux and the Cooke S4s. Basically, the argument seems to be that modern glass tends to flatten the image with a resultant loss of three dimensionality. Is there anything in this claim or is it nonsense? here is the video:


I don't agree with that at all. The biggest "flaw" with most modern glass is that it's very neutral and very sharp. Modern lenses tend not to have much character to them, but the word I'd use is "clinical" rather than flat.

IMO most of the flat look is from lighting and framing. Flat frames and flat lighting captured in log lead to a flat look.

No lens can cure that, no matter how much character it has.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostFri Jul 02, 2021 8:57 pm

timbutt2 wrote:Then you will love to hear that I already filmed my review of the Vespids a few months back. I've since shot more with the lenses and gotten some great looking footage. I'm very happy with the "My Medicine" music video for Sally Sweets.


Cool! I'll watch this soon... I'm probably going to end up getting a set sooner or later, but right now my priority is networking now that I'm settled into new city. :)

More to come soon. I plan on doing a short film with them as soon as my eyes fully recover from PRK LASIK, which I got two weeks ago. So the eyes are improving every day.
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Robert Castiglione

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Re: Need Advice Sigma Cine Primes vs Zeiss CP3

PostSat Jul 03, 2021 3:40 am

Yes, I can see that the Meyers are indeed specialty lenses but that is what makes them fun and interesting. I can see myself using them in specific contexts.
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