URSA 12K flicker

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woodyjames

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URSA 12K flicker

PostThu Jun 17, 2021 10:54 am

Hello all

I've owned the URSA 12k for around 3 months, probably shot about 100 hours on it. Sold my 7 year Sony F55 and went all in Blackmagic Design.

95% of the time I shoot in 8K, 8:1 compression, and then either 25fps with 1/50 shutter, or 120fps with 1/500 shutter. For me personally and for the wildlife I shoot I much prefer the look of a 1/500 shutter for 120fps)
Occasionally I have shot at 60fps but very little.

The other night I shot a baby woodpecker being fed in a tree, in a forest. Daylight. Only natural light. Discovered to my horror the next morning on reviewing the footage that there is a flicker to it. I was shooting at 60fps, 1/125 shutter. 600mm lens so a huge lens hood, but no direct sunlight hitting the camera anyway.

Since then I've been in contact with BMD technical and sent them a sample. The first sample i sent them they said they couldn't see it, despite also saying they had gone through it frame by frame, and despite it showing clearly in a waveform monitor playing in realtime (within Premiere Pro) I have now sent them another, waiting to hear back. It is easier to see with a 709 lut on it.

I've shot more test shots, and annoyingly, it isn't there every time. Very intermittent. Ive been testing at various frame rates/shutter speeds. Haven't seen it at other frame rate / shutter combos than 60fps+1/125, but because its intermittent this could be coincidental.

I cant find any other reports of this googling, but would be surprised if mine is the only URSA 12K in the world with this fault. I'm using firmware 7.2.1.

Has anyone else experienced this? Please let me know if so!

Feeling pretty unsettled right now with my big move to Blackmagic Design.

Thanks
Woody
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rick.lang

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 am

Does this flicker only occur when playing back in Premiere Pro? What is “real time” when you shoot a variety of clips. Is it 25 fps regardless of your off speed capture fps?
Rick Lang
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 10:30 am

rick.lang wrote:Does this flicker only occur when playing back in Premiere Pro? What is “real time” when you shoot a variety of clips. Is it 25 fps regardless of your off speed capture fps?


1: Only in Premiere?- no but it's much easier to see there with a LUT on than the BRAW directly on BMD's raw player. I can also just about see it if i'm looking for it- playing back in camera through my SmallHD monitor.

2: By playing it back in 'real time' in that context I meant letting the clip play, as opposed to moving forward manually frame by frame. (whatever framerate it was shot at)

3: Yes i'm working to 25fps- that's my base. (Europe)
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rick.lang

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URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Thanks for the details. I could imagine that your recordings at 120 fps with 1/500” shutter speed might seem to flicker due to the smaller shutter angle of roughly 90 degrees, but those settings didn’t appear to flicker. But 60 fps with 1/125” shutter speed would give you normal motion, about 180 degrees shutter angle, and shouldn’t be problematic shooting in daylight or other flicker-free lighting.

And the unpredictability of the flicker using different screens or viewers is hard to explain as sometimes it’s hard to see or appears fine.

Rather than shoot 60 and 120 fps, could you do a test at 50 fps with 1/100” shutter and 100 fps with 1/500”?
Rick Lang
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 7:33 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks for the details. I could imagine that your recordings at 120 fps with 1/500” shutter speed might seem to flicker due to the smaller shutter angle of roughly 90 degrees, but those settings didn’t appear to flicker. But 60 fps with 1/125” shutter speed would give you normal motion, about 180 degrees shutter angle, and shouldn’t be problematic shooting in daylight or other flicker-free lighting.

And the unpredictability of the flicker using different screens or viewers is hard to explain as sometimes it’s hard to see or appears fine.

Rather than shoot 60 and 120 fps, could you do a test at 50 fps with 1/100” shutter and 100 fps with 1/500”?



Hi Rick,
Perhaps my original post wasn't clear enough. I'm well aware of exactly what 120fps with 1/500 shutter looks like- i use it because I prefer the look over a 180 degree angle, for my wildlife stuff. I've already shot with this camera for 100 hours or so, majority of the time being at either 25fps 1/50, or at 120fps at 1/500. This fault
has started in the last 2 days. I haven't just picked up a camera, I've been doing this for 25 years or so.

It's not jittery fast shutter look, its random darker frames, at random intervals.

Anyway. In my testing yesterday it happened at 25fps + 1/50 anyway, so now I know its definitely not a frame rate / shutter issue. Blackmagic have now confirmed it is faulty and it will be returned to them.

Blackmagic Design UK say they have never heard of this fault before. So either i'm very unlucky with a one off bad one, or this issue will start becoming reported by others as the cameras age..
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drknsss

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 8:46 pm

I am considering getting this camera so thanks for sharing. BTW your reel is amazing! How much of it is U12K ?
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Overlander

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 9:48 pm

Woody - That's my go-to rate as well, 120fps and 1/500th (maybe 90fps) for wildlife, particularly 20 for small birds. And, if they only land for a few seconds at least I have some footage.

I missed the link to your reel. Where can I view it?

Richard
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rick.lang

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostFri Jun 18, 2021 9:59 pm

That’s good news that this was diagnosed quickly, Woody! Knowing that you were able to see flicker with another standard frame rate and shutter speed was helpful to understand it was a faulty camera. Sorry that you had to go through this.
Rick Lang
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 7:00 am

drknsss wrote:I am considering getting this camera so thanks for sharing. BTW your reel is amazing! How much of it is U12K ?


You found my website googling my name? Thanks for the words.. none of it is from the URSA.. F55 mainly
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 7:02 am

Overlander wrote:Woody - That's my go-to rate as well, 120fps and 1/500th (maybe 90fps) for wildlife, particularly 20 for small birds. And, if they only land for a few seconds at least I have some footage.

I missed the link to your reel. Where can I view it?

Richard


I didn’t post a link- they must have found me googling.

My website and reel is at www.woodyjamesdp.com
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John Brawley

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostSat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 pm

woodyjames wrote:Hello all

I've owned the URSA 12k for around 3 months, probably shot about 100 hours on it. Sold my 7 year Sony F55 and went all in Blackmagic Design.

95% of the time I shoot in 8K, 8:1 compression, and then either 25fps with 1/50 shutter, or 120fps with 1/500 shutter. For me personally and for the wildlife I shoot I much prefer the look of a 1/500 shutter for 120fps)
Occasionally I have shot at 60fps but very little.

The other night I shot a baby woodpecker being fed in a tree, in a forest. Daylight. Only natural light. Discovered to my horror the next morning on reviewing the footage that there is a flicker to it. I was shooting at 60fps, 1/125 shutter. 600mm lens so a huge lens hood, but no direct sunlight hitting the camera anyway.

Since then I've been in contact with BMD technical and sent them a sample. The first sample i sent them they said they couldn't see it, despite also saying they had gone through it frame by frame, and despite it showing clearly in a waveform monitor playing in realtime (within Premiere Pro) I have now sent them another, waiting to hear back. It is easier to see with a 709 lut on it.

I've shot more test shots, and annoyingly, it isn't there every time. Very intermittent. Ive been testing at various frame rates/shutter speeds. Haven't seen it at other frame rate / shutter combos than 60fps+1/125, but because its intermittent this could be coincidental.

I cant find any other reports of this googling, but would be surprised if mine is the only URSA 12K in the world with this fault. I'm using firmware 7.2.1.

Has anyone else experienced this? Please let me know if so!

Feeling pretty unsettled right now with my big move to Blackmagic Design.

Thanks
Woody


Can you share a link to the camera original file and if you have a rendered result where you see it, that clip as well ?

I've shot a a great deal with the 12K and it's not something I can say I've seen, but I'd love to see your files.

JB
John Brawley ACS
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostMon Jun 21, 2021 8:56 pm

[/quote]

Can you share a link to the camera original file and if you have a rendered result where you see it, that clip as well ?

I've shot a a great deal with the 12K and it's not something I can say I've seen, but I'd love to see your files.

JB[/quote]

Hi John,

Sorry for the delay - I don't have a 709 LUT'd version i'm afraid but here's a BRAW clip i shot to send to BMD. (It's 8K)

https://we.tl/t-5ApEJmsUyM

As I said, if you can chuck a 709 lut on it, you'll see it easier, but if you can have a waveform up as you watch it- it shows clearly what is happening with micro drops in exposure on random frames.

I did Timecodes for Blackmagic Design - when at first they told me they couldn't see it, for the first 3 darker frames so you know what ya looking for:

First darker frame is

10:31:40:05

Second is

10:31:41:03

Third is

10:31:43:03


Here is a clip of a woodpecker chick from the night before which alerted me to the problem in the first place. It's probably clearer to see here -

https://we.tl/t-n7f6h2GIDY


I still have the camera (hasn't been sent away yet) and the latest is that Blackmagic say they have identified the issue in very rare cases - it is firmware as opposed to hardware- and they hope to get me a BETA update by next week.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Cheers
Woody
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John Brawley

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostMon Jun 21, 2021 9:10 pm

Hi Woody.

I’ll take a look.

Are you using EF mount ? I wonder if it’s an electronic IRIS glitch….

JB
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostTue Jun 22, 2021 5:38 am

Yes I’m using the EF mount.

I considered the same, but ruled it out because of this thinking -

The darker frames are much more subtle than the smallest IRIS step, and that there is no sound from the lens- if it was actuating then iris on its own..
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 3:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:Hi Woody.

I’ll take a look.

Are you using EF mount ? I wonder if it’s an electronic IRIS glitch….

JB




Curious to hear your thoughts on this John?
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John Brawley

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostTue Jun 29, 2021 6:13 am

woodyjames wrote:
John Brawley wrote:Hi Woody.

I’ll take a look.

Are you using EF mount ? I wonder if it’s an electronic IRIS glitch….

JB




Curious to hear your thoughts on this John?



Looks like the transfer expired?

JB
John Brawley ACS
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Nick Lavigne

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostTue Jun 29, 2021 9:41 pm

I would be willing to also look these over in BMD premiere, Autokroma Premiere, and DaVinci. however the links are expired.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 7:36 am

I had downloaded those samples a few days ago.
Put them onto my filemail space:
https://laufbildkommission.filemail.com ... sbpkmcjqou

Available for 30 days.
Saying "Thx for help!" is not a crime.
--------------------------------
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
--------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
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woodyjames

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Re: URSA 12K flicker - updated links!

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 7:41 am

Hi all,

I've renewed the links to example BRAW 8K clips - first one:

https://we.tl/t-mLAiWcOufS

As I said, if you can chuck a 709 lut on it, you'll see it easier, but if you can have a waveform up as you watch it- it shows clearly what is happening with micro drops in exposure on random frames.

I did Timecodes for Blackmagic Design - when at first they told me they couldn't see it, for the first 3 darker frames so you know what ya looking for:

First darker frame is

10:31:40:05

Second is

10:31:41:03

Third is

10:31:43:03


Here is the clip of a woodpecker chick from the night before which alerted me to the problem in the first place. It's probably clearer to see here -

https://we.tl/t-TlhciOb396


I still have the camera (hasn't been sent away yet) and the latest is that Blackmagic say they have identified the issue in very rare cases - it is firmware as opposed to hardware- and they hope to get me a BETA update by next week.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Cheers
Woody
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Nick Lavigne

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Re: URSA 12K flicker

PostWed Jun 30, 2021 10:21 pm

I tired it with everything, there is no question that it is flickering. The color parade just drops a couple points in one frame then is back up the next. Have you tried running it on wall power?

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