New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

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Matt White

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 12:00 pm

Anyone can use a pencil. Few can draw beautifully.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 12:17 pm

And better or worse pencil doesn't change that fact :lol:
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 12:44 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
JonPais wrote: 5G will be able to deliver data rates up to one hundred times faster than today's 4G networks. Everything will be faster. C2C is the future.

Yeee, specially in those remote locations :D
C2C is great tech. Not sure why introduced so late.

You still have to hold that phone properly to do this (and cinema mode-aka 'artificial blur' is not going help much):

almost each shot is a masterpiece. Suddenly simple scenes have new dimension.
And no product placements. :)
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 12:44 pm

Tim Franks wrote:
Regarding comments on shooting movies on the iPhone like Unsane, Tangerine and High Flying Bird from Soderbergh. Remember 28 Days later where they shot portion of the film on a Canon XL1 to minimize disturbance and be more manoeuvrable.
A iPhone would fit perfect for this. If we only could fit a cinema lens on it. :D



I think this is the difference.

There's already been many people that have shot feature films using a phone. Were they successful ? Was it transforming in a way that ADDED something to the craft of filming and storytelling? Did it genuinely innovate? So much so that it's been emulated by others ? I'm thinking no. No. it hasn't.

Does having the ability to shoot ProRes change that equation?

Will a post applied Bokeh / Depth of field make it suddenly look better? For the answer to this, let's poll how many people like going to 3D movies here where the 3D depth is created after they've shot the movie......Anyone?

No. I don't think it does make the giant leap forward I'm seeing many claim it is....

If you're a tiktokker or IG reel shooter that right now is using a phone to create content does shooting ProRes make a difference ? Yes...

When you watch something shot on a phone...was it something that could have ONLY been done using a phone to shoot with or was there a better solution? Are you making a movie because that's what you had in your pocket? Can I imagine shooting a B roll or dangerous insert shot with it? Sure.

This is a natural evolutionary step. I'd be more worried if I made small consumer stills cameras or home movie cameras. This competes more directly with GoPro. Who's out there shooting a movie with a GoPro?

Just because you COULD type out a novel using an iPhone doesn't mean you should.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 12:47 pm

Tim Franks wrote:I think we still see a quicker support for RAW then for the BlackMagicDesign cameras. :P




I don't think we will see ProRes RAW in an iPhone.

How many cameras are there today that shoot ProRes RAW internally three years after launch? (Shh..Answer is none)

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 2:47 pm

It never meant to be internal camera format (at least not in Atomos eyes), like BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.
Both cases can easily evolve.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 2:51 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It never meant to be internal camera format (at least not in Atomos eyes), like BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.
Both cases can easily evolve.
PRR has been internal on DJI for the last three years.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 2:54 pm

JonPais wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It never meant to be internal camera format (at least not in Atomos eyes), like BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.
Both cases can easily evolve.
PRR has been internal on DJI for the last three years.



Nope.

The recorder is in the drone where you insert the SD card.

The camera is a seperate piece that hangs below on a gimbal.

It’s external.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 2:54 pm

John Brawley wrote:
JonPais wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It never meant to be internal camera format (at least not in Atomos eyes), like BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.
Both cases can easily evolve.
PRR has been internal on DJI for the last three years.



Nope.

The recorder is in the drone where you insert the SD card.

The camera is a seperate piece that hangs below on a gimbal.

It’s external.

JB
oh. hehe
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Those systems are a special case anyway.
If Apple (+ Atomos) let use ProResRAW inside cameras then Atomos is out of business :lol:

Another reason is money. Camera manufactures don't want to pay ProResRAW licensing fees and in this way pass money to RED, which still benefits from ProResRAW 'sales'.
It's easier to let you plug in into camera and record ProResRAW. This way user pays those extra bucks.

It would make more sense for BM to make BRAW encoding free and let companies implement it in cameras (BM most likely already got development costs back, so they could live with it). But here problem is that camera manufactures don't want to typically rely on 3rd party RAW recording format. All own to strategic/business decisions.

I'm surprised Apple did not include ProResRAW instead of ProRes in iPhone, but this may be down to the agreement which they have with Atomos. This would make way more sense in case of phone's limited storage.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 3:59 pm

Every time a new Phone comes out we have this discussion.

At what point is something considered "good enough"?

You can make a "film" with just about anything.

But should you? They say the best camera is the one you have with you. But if you only have an iPhone with you, you either A. Didn't plan ahead. or B. Don't have the budget.

Who here has seen "Who Killed Captain Alex?"? (Odd punctuation lol)

With nothing but passion, they made a movie. It's not perfect by any means, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

Yet. Would any of us turn down a more expensive camera for an iPhone? Probably not.

The iPhone is not purpose-built. It's a phone first, a computer second, and a camera third.

So no. I don't think Phones will replace cameras anytime soon. Larger sensors, replaceable lenses, higher dynamic range, etc will always win out.

As a side note, what are the specs of the new iPhone? Dynamic Range? Resolution? Codec? Sure it's "HDR" but uh. That's not exactly defined.

Don't get me wrong. Make whatever you want on whatever you want. But asserting that a general use device is better than a purpose use device is just silly.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:I'm surprised Apple did not include ProResRAW instead of ProRes in iPhone, but this may be down to the agreement which they have with Atomos. This would make way more sense in case of phone's limited storage.


You answered your own question.

They don't want to pay (or they have had the license request refused) to use internal raw recording, which RED seems to have a stranglehold on.

Like with Canon, rumoured to have an IP swap to allow RED cameras to have the RF mount in exchange for Canon being able to use internal RAW on their CXX cameras, I'm surprised that RED haven't done something similar with Apple.

It's also intriguing to realise that RED have abandoned their till now much vaunted REDCODE which was wavelet based and quietly made a new version, introduced on the Komodo that is DCT based, and is now also what's being used on the new Raptor as well.

I suspect this is partly because Apple hardware is moving away from GPUs and Wavelet workflows would start to be very problematic on Apple silicon based hardware.

Whereas BRAW plays back faster than ProRes at the moment on Apple hardware. When the new "pro" versions of the apple silicon drop, I'm sure you will see 12K footage running on Resolve as a demonstration of the new Apple hardware. Not ProRes RAW.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.


I dunno where you get that logic. There's BRAW external recording on a number of cameras, including Sigma, Canon and Panasonic.

BMD for sure designed the codec for themselves first AND they had to have their own codec because of the way they wanted to work with their own sensor design. ProRes RAW or CDNG would have meant they couldn't make the 12K camera or more importantly, their own unique RGBW sensor with multiple in camera scaling formats.

JB

EDIT

And I finally got around to looking at the clips.

I've watched this twice only, but immediately you can see problems around the hair. There's a little weird blur going on and I notice that there's not a lot of movement of the actors in the frame. As soon as thy start moving around, watch the focus rendering errors multiply.

Corners of the photo at 00:13.
The weird Halo of his hair at 00:17

I could go on....
They're in most shots.


Last edited by John Brawley on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 6:38 pm

John Brawley wrote:
You answered your own question.

They don't want to pay (or they have had the license request refused) to use internal raw recording, which RED seems to have a stranglehold on.

Like with Canon, rumoured to have an IP swap to allow RED cameras to have the RF mount in exchange for Canon being able to use internal RAW on their CXX cameras, I'm surprised that RED haven't done something similar with Apple.

It's also intriguing to realise that RED have abandoned their till now much vaunted REDCODE which was wavelet based and quietly made a new version, introduced on the Komodo that is DCT based, and is now also what's being used on the new Raptor as well.

I suspect this is partly because Apple hardware is moving away from GPUs and Wavelet workflows would start to be very problematic on Apple silicon based hardware.

Whereas BRAW plays back faster than ProRes at the moment on Apple hardware. When the new "pro" versions of the apple silicon drop, I'm sure you will see 12K footage running on Resolve as a demonstration of the new Apple hardware. Not ProRes RAW.


As far as I know Apple+Atomos paid/paying RED licensing fees. Now question is in the deal. If it's per device, then ProResRAW will never show up in iPhone as it would cost Apple a lot due to numbers. If they paid one-off fee then this is a different story.

RED abandoned Jpeg2000 as they realised it's just too complex for what it offers. You gain few % in size/quality but at the cost of unproportionally higher computation needs. They may just hit a wall with chip design to cover next 8K+, high fps needs.

Even if BRAW plays faster (not sure if I believe it, specially when we talk full quality/debayer decoding), Apple has ProRes decoder/encoder ready on chip, so any Mx chip will/can easily have it and then ProRes will be very fast and will use way less resources.
I don't think you can count on beating ProRes experience on Apple devices (specially Apple own processors).

John Brawley wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BRAW wasn't really designed to be an external recorder format.


I dunno where you get that logic. There's BRAW external recording on a number of cameras, including Sigma, Canon and Panasonic.

BMD for sure designed the codec for themselves first AND they had to have their own codec because of the way they wanted to work with their own sensor design. ProRes RAW or CDNG would have meant they couldn't make the 12K camera or more importantly, their own unique RGBW sensor with multiple in camera scaling formats.

Yes, this is what I meant. They done it with internal usage in mind (and maybe later had idea of making external recorder). Due to its design it may be difficult to make it a "generic" RAW format now.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 6:52 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
As far as I know Apple+Atomos paid/paying RED licensing fees.


Atomos did the deal. Not Apple.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/01/24/ ... agreement/

After this happened, Apple then tried to test the RED patent.

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Even if BRAW plays faster (not sure if I believe it, specially when we talk full quality/debayer decoding),


It's pretty easy to test....

Andrew Kolakowski wrote: Due to its design it may be difficult to make it a "generic" RAW format.


I still don't know what this means.

No atomos recorder can just be plugged into any raw-spitting-out camera. It has the firmware to take the output specific to that camera.

Neither can a BMD recorder.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 7:33 pm

Of course each camera needs own implementation because there is no standard to send RAW data over HDMI. If there was a standard then it would be way easier. Rest is dealign with metadata which is also different for each manufacture (whatever it decides to pass over HDMI). None of it is rocket science, nor plug-and-play either.
RAW data itself is 'the same' (all Bayer pattern), so easy to handle. ProResRAW records it as is, so no special work needed.
ProResRW SDK allows you directly access RAW data, so you can do whole own processing in the way you wish (per each camera). Or you take final data from SDK.
BRAW= no RAW data access. You take what SDK gives you and no chance to do own processing. Not end of the world, but it's definitely a difference between those 2 formats. RED done the same (with encryption though) but for different reasons- to protect sell of their overpriced accelerators :) You have to deal with this Jpeg2000 at the end, which is not easy.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 7:56 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Franks wrote:
Regarding comments on shooting movies on the iPhone like Unsane, Tangerine and High Flying Bird from Soderbergh. Remember 28 Days later where they shot portion of the film on a Canon XL1 to minimize disturbance and be more manoeuvrable.
A iPhone would fit perfect for this. If we only could fit a cinema lens on it. :D



I think this is the difference.

There's already been many people that have shot feature films using a phone. Were they successful ?

Hmm I think you didn’t catch me correctly, but regarding your question if they where successful…
Tangerine for example does have pretty amount of awards and nominations on it record.

Is it because it was fully shot on a iPhone. No but they still where successful. ;)


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 8:13 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Tim Franks wrote:I think we still see a quicker support for RAW then for the BlackMagicDesign cameras. :P




I don't think we will see ProRes RAW in an iPhone.

How many cameras are there today that shoot ProRes RAW internally three years after launch? (Shh..Answer is none)

JB
You know I am being sarcastic but hey the DJI Zenmuse X7 does capture ProRes RAW.

So who knows maybe we will see ProRes RAW on cameras like other brands have “legally” done?


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 8:22 pm

Tim Franks wrote:[

Is it because it was fully shot on a iPhone. No but they still where successful. ;)



It won some awards (as much for cast) but nothing that counts as major. Screening in competition at London is probably it's best accolade...?

And it certainly didn't lead to anyone else thinking it would be a good idea to follow that production approach. it was made in 2015. Haven't seen a lot of others films made in the same way have we ?

The filmmaker who made this recently had one of the greatest accolades for a subsequent film Red Rocket. He just got a nomination for a Palme d'Or which is great. He shot Red Rocket on 16mm film (if you believe IMDB)

His film previous to this was Florida Project which had a lot more critical success with many more awards of a more prestigious nature (again more for cast) and it seems was mostly shot 35mm film and Alexa with a single iPhone shot. (again according to IMDB)

So has that filmmaker taken the MO of Tangerine and made a career out of iPhone shooting ? No.

Has anyone else ? Other than Soderberg ? I can't think of any.

The greatest success of Tangerine maybe is that the filmmaker got enough recognition to make another film. That could be considered a success I guess. But could he have also done the same using another low budget camera ? Probably. Did Tangerine NEED to be shot on a phone ? I'm going to posit no.

I for one enjoyed unsane. There were shots in that which you could have only gotten with a phone. Great !

JB
Last edited by John Brawley on Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 8:23 pm

Tim Franks wrote:You know I am being sarcastic but hey the DJI Zenmuse X7 does capture ProRes RAW.

So who knows maybe we will see ProRes RAW on cameras like other brands have “legally” done?





Hey, I didn't know the X7 can do ProRes RAW.

But

Doesn't it still use the media on the Inspire 2 drone? You don't put it in the camera unless I'm forgetting how they work.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 8:42 pm

John Brawley wrote:Hey, I didn't know the X7 can do ProRes RAW.

But

Doesn't it still use the media on the Inspire 2 drone? You don't put it in the camera unless I'm forgetting how they work.

JB


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 8:45 pm

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 9:36 pm

John Brawley wrote:Has anyone else ? Other than Soderberg ? I can't think of any.
Soderbergh kind of beat all the other Hollywood directors to the punch with that. His use of the iPhone is an illuminating case worth looking at.

A couple years before Soderbergh made the films that he shot on iPhone, he gave a talk at the SF Film Fest where he explained in great detail that a huge barrier to making a lower budget movie (by Hollywood standards) is marketing costs.
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https://www.indiewire.com/2013/04/read-the-full-transcript-of-steven-soderberghs-impassioned-state-of-cinema-address-from-the-san-francisco-film-festival-38993/

Well, guess what happens when someone of his level of talent + fame shoots a movie on an iPhone? The result is a ton of free press coverage with the headline "Hollywood director shoots movie on iPhone" — and not because Apple pays for that coverage, it gets coverage simply because it's news. And note that he didn't continue shooting on the iPhone. You can only pull that trick a couple times before it isn't news anymore. Soderbergh is super sharp.

Also, Soderbergh has actually been honest about the expensive challenges he had to face in post because of the somewhat odd limitations baked into the iPhone's video processing (limitations that Apple still has not removed)
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https://www.indiewire.com/2019/02/high-flying-bird-steven-soderbergh-apple-iphone-netflix-1202043102/
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http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 9:41 pm

The rule I’ve heard is four times the production budget before you’re in profit. (The filmmakers - Studios might be making money sooner but get to claim the costs up to a certain threshold usually and P&A doesn’t include other costs like the cinemas cut for example.)

1 million dollar film needs to take 4 million BO to break even.

30 million dollar film is 120 million in BO to break even.

120 million dollar film needs to pull close to 500 million TO BREAK EVEN. (In reality this is probably bit less at this scale)

This is a pretty consistent rule. (It’s basically about the marketing spend the “P&A” costs)

https://marketingmovies.net/2019/pa-top ... tion-cost/

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 10:02 pm

I don't think there's a fixed ratio, unless the base cost includes P&A. Which goes back to what Soderbergh was saying -- marketing costs ("P&A") are so high that they can easily exceed the production budget of a low budget movie. So nobody wants to invest in low-budget movies, because you're competing against $200 million movies with stars and extravagant production values, and the movie costs nearly as much to promote as that $200 million stuff.

As I recall, "Unsane" was $1.5 million. The worldwide theatrical gross was around $14 million. But who knows what they spent to promote and distribute it. It probably lost money. And I wonder how much he gained, if anything, from the publicity of shooting on an iphone. Everyone who followed that sort of thing would know he came late to the table. "Tangerine", for something like $100K, was the first one which got distribution, long before him.

What does make money at low budget is horror films -- either the sadistic-porn kind, like Saw, or the tonier Blumhouse model, which have very good production values (and not on iphones). But that's also hit and miss, and another thread....
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 16, 2021 10:40 pm

John Paines wrote:
What does make money at low budget is horror films -- either the sadistic-porn kind, like Saw, or the tonier Blumhouse model, which have very good production values (and not on iphones). But that's also hit and miss, and another thread....


The interesting thing about the blumhouse model (and I'm working for them right now) is that

You have to shoot it in 15 days...
It has to cost 3-5 million. (Sometimes for a certain film they'll go to 7 or 9 but rare)

You accept those terms and they basically leave you alone. But horror is typically a genre that isn't affected by celebrity and stunt casting. Fans of the genre will happily watch unknowns.

Blumhouse doesn't always do horror either. Whiplash is a great example.

3.3 million budget and 49 million world wide plus a lot of critical success. A very profitable film.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 1:20 am

bohndigga wrote:As a side note, what are the specs of the new iPhone? Dynamic Range? Resolution? Codec? Sure it's "HDR" but uh. That's not exactly defined..
The iPhone 13 supports both HDR10 and Dolby Vision, allowing it to faithfully reproduce HDR content.

UHD Premium TVs must meet or exceed a 4K resolution (3840 x 2160), support 10-bit color depth, BT.2020 color space and HDR, either HDR10 or DV or both. The display must be able to produce greater than 90% of the DCI-P3 color space and have either (a) peak brightness equal to or greater than 1,000 nits and less than .05 nits black level or (b) 540 nits or greater peak brightness and less than .0005 nits black level.

The Dolby Vision format is able to represent videos with a peak brightness up to 10,000 cd/m2 and a color gamut up to Rec. 2020. As of today, no displays are able to reproduce the full brightness and gamut of HDR, which is why there are two standards for Grade 1 reference monitors: Grade 1A HDR and Grade 1B HDR (unable to reproduce the full brightness and/or gamut of HDR), with the possibility of withdrawing
Grade 1B HDR at some future date.

Specifications of iPhone 12 captured Dolby Vision

As with most other consumer-focused devices, the video captured by the iPhone is recorded and stored using a video codec that is primarily focused on consumer delivery, in this case HEVC.

The Dolby Vision iPhone recording specifications:

Codec/Format : HEVC Main10 video in Apple Quicktime container (.mov)
HDR format: Dolby Vision with HLG base layer (Profile 8.4)
Transfer Characteristic: HLG (ITU-R BT.2100-1)
Color primaries: BT.2020
Chroma sampling: 4:2:0
Bit depth: 10 bit

The iPhone 13 can display 1,200 nits peak brightness in HDR mode, has in the neighborhood of 2.8K resolution and DCI-P3 coverage should be greater than 98% (if it meets or exceeds the iPhone 12), which tramples most consumer televisions, even after calibration. Tracking of the ST2084 PQ EOTF curve should also be outstanding.
Last edited by JonPais on Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Castiglione

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 1:42 am

Whiplash "a very profitable film" .. and a good one.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 2:01 am

Robert Castiglione wrote:Whiplash "a very profitable film" .. and a good one.


I don't think you'd say that if you'd ever been to music school -- jazz or otherwise -- but never mind.... This guy's best film, by a mile and a half, notwithstanding his later Academy award, was his first no-budget feature, a jazz musical, done while he was still a student. But who asked me?
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 3:24 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
JonPais wrote: 5G will be able to deliver data rates up to one hundred times faster than today's 4G networks. Everything will be faster. C2C is the future.

Yeee, specially in those remote locations :D
Plug your phone into your laptop, drag and drop clips in just seconds and begin editing straight away.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:55 am

John that comment is misconceived at so many levels. Fundamentally Whiplash is not music or music school.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 6:19 am

The comments about directors choosing not to shoot with an iPhone their entire career or whether or not iPhone movies were nominated for Oscars are missing the larger picture - to me, the significance is the breaking down of barriers, not just using this or that particular device.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 8:36 am

The 270 degrees of cinematography, the remaining 90 is then, it is all done on computer anyway. :?

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 11.28.39.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 11.28.39.jpg (574 KiB) Viewed 1277 times


I do not think so they all have their place.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 11:06 am

JonPais wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
JonPais wrote: 5G will be able to deliver data rates up to one hundred times faster than today's 4G networks. Everything will be faster. C2C is the future.

Yeee, specially in those remote locations :D
Plug your phone into your laptop, drag and drop clips in just seconds and begin editing straight away.

Apple really messed up here, it's still a Lightning port with USB 2.0 speeds. On a 1 TB device. :roll: Wi-Fi will be a lot faster than the port (it's Wi-Fi 6). Unlike the latest iPad Pro which has a USB-C port with Thunderbolt 3. Maybe next year? At least the new iPad Mini has USB-C 3.1, while not as fast as Thunderbolt 3 it would certainly be fast enough.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 11:22 am

For any serious use and because of the ridiculous Apple storage prices it really should have option to store to external SSD directly.

However this will not happen because of the ridiculous Apple storage prices and iCloud that I avoid using, it has caused serious problems one too many times.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 11:31 am

Robert Castiglione wrote:John that comment is misconceived at so many levels. Fundamentally Whiplash is not music or music school.


You mean it's irrelevant that the factual premises of the movies are ridiculous, and it's implied claims of social realism and psychological insight are -- putting it politely -- a crock? You could say none of that matters if you find the movie profound anyway, but as you may have gathered, I don't.

But never mind, some folks want argue that new cameras and formats will change the world of movie making and possibilities are now endless. Let's give them the road, this argument has only been going on for the last 30 years. Strangely, the movies don't get any better and narrative filmmaking doesn't become any more democratic, but who knows, maybe the *next* phone will do it...
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 12:06 pm

Kim Janson wrote:For any serious use and because of the ridiculous Apple storage prices it really should have option to store to external SSD directly.

However this will not happen because of the ridiculous Apple storage prices and iCloud that I avoid using, it has caused serious problems one too many times.
Fact check:

Yes, Samsung has cut the price on its Galaxy S21 phones by $200 compared to the S20, but Apple still holds the pricing edge here. The iPhone 12 Pro Max starts at $1,099 — $100 cheaper than the Galaxy S21 Ultra's $1,199 cost. However, it's less expensive to boost the storage on the Galaxy S21 Ultra, where upgrading to the 256GB version costs an extra $50. You need to pay an extra $100 for the 256GB iPhone 12 Pro Max. The 512GB Galaxy S21 Ultra is also cheaper than the equivalent iPhone 12 Pro Max — $1,379 versus $1,399.

Winner: Draw
Source: Tom’s Guide, published 3 days ago

iCloud has worked seamlessly across all my devices for as long as I’ve owned Apple products. Sorry to hear you’re having issues.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 1:14 pm

Fact check also: if we assume on the base model the 128 GB cost $100, 1 TB Apple SSD cost $600

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.11.03.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.11.03.jpg (52.27 KiB) Viewed 1127 times


Looking the new Mac Air the SSD pricing is about the same, $200 for first 256 Gb 1 TB $600

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.15.57.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.15.57.jpg (176.69 KiB) Viewed 1122 times


A fast 1 TB M.2 SSD is less than $200

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.20.49.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.20.49.jpg (187.55 KiB) Viewed 1116 times


That is what I call ridiculous Apple SSD pricing.

On the iCloud I have lost completely my trust.
Last edited by Kim Janson on Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 1:30 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Fact check also: if we assume on the base model the 128 Gb cost $100, 1 Tb Apple SSD cost $600

You know what they say about assuming.

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.11.03.jpg


Looking the new Mac Air the SSD pricing is about the same, $200 for first 256 Gb 1 Tb $600

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.15.57.jpg


A fast M.2 SSD is less than $200

Screenshot 2021-09-17 at 16.20.49.jpg


That is what I call ridiculous Apple SSD pricing.

On the iCloud I have lost completely my trust.
”because of the ridiculous Apple storage prices it really should have option to store to external SSD directly”

First you’re talking about needing USB-C to store directly from an iPhone, then you switch the conversation to a laptop! Well played.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 1:37 pm

" then you switch the conversation to a laptop! Well played." I do not know how you came to this conclusion, but what ever to avoid discussing the ridiculous Apple SSD pricing. Enough of that, for my part at least. :D
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 3:53 pm

So let me get this straight.

A. No RAW output.
B. No control over what the sensor does after you start recording. (Meaning it's always changing.)

Why are we having this conversation again?

Is a point and shoot camera on auto better than a cinema camera?

No.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm

bohndigga wrote:So let me get this straight.

A. No RAW output.
B. No control over what the sensor does after you start recording. (Meaning it's always changing.)

Why are we having this conversation again?

Is a point and shoot camera on auto better than a cinema camera?

No.

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With FiLMiC Pro, exposure can be adjusted manually and locked. it is neither necessary nor desirable to always shoot RAW.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:13 pm

Exposure: yes. But not the tone mapping.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:14 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Exposure: yes. But not the tone mapping.
Thanks! I was just about to say the same thing!

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:41 pm

Uli Plank wrote:Exposure: yes. But not the tone mapping.
But you can shoot raw stills with that app as I remember.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 4:46 pm

JonPais wrote:it is neither necessary nor desirable to always shoot RAW.


True.

But the lack of an option to shoot RAW is undoubtedly a mark against the iPhone.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 6:50 pm

I was bored and hat a look at "Whodunnit?".
OMG, so much fake DoF! Even worse when applied to wides…

Now I'm bored even more.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 7:05 pm

iPhone 13 on its way for my wife. Maybe she’ll let me try it out… I’m still using my iPhone 7 Plus. Prefer the BMPCC4K for photos.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 7:27 pm

rick.lang wrote:iPhone 13 on its way for my wife. Maybe she’ll let me try it out… I’m still using my iPhone 7 Plus. Prefer the BMPCC4K for photos.


For photos, I think the iPhones (and Google Pixel and other camera-optimized phones) are really coming along. I did a non-rigorous test recently comparing my Sony A7iii with an old Minolta Rokkor 28mm lens (the iPhones use the equivalent of a 28mm lens) and my iPhone SE and while there are clear differences in image quality the iPhone photos were surprisingly good. When I used the Focos app to provide some depth of field to photos taken at minimum focus distance, it came fairly close to matching the look of the Minolta at the same distance, even including bokeh and specular highlights, although the downfall of a single-lens phone is that there's no transition zone: things are either in focus or out of focus, and the edges are disastrous.

I don't think phones are as far along in the video department, even with the iPhone 13's innovations. They've made a big step forward and I do find it liberating to shoot video on such a small, portable, and importantly weatherproof device (I can shoot video in pouring rain or even a little bit underwater with impunity). I love it for that, but the video quality is a far cry even from what I get on my original Pocket or Micro Cinema Camera.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 17, 2021 7:36 pm

Some folks climb mountains just to do it.

Good Luck
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 18, 2021 12:41 am

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