New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 8:57 am

That's called Airdrop and it's comparatively slow.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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roger.magnusson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 9:21 am

iPhone management (including file management) on macOS moved from iTunes to Finder in macOS Catalina in 2019. On Windows you can still use iTunes.

AirDrop is slow, but so is the Lightning port when it comes to 4K ProRes files as it's USB 2.0. Even Wi-Fi can be faster with a third party file share app. iCloud might also be an alternative as it also gives you a backup.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 9:43 am

I am using PhotoSync which is able to sync photos and videos wireless, works in both ways and on a modern 5GHz WLAN transfers are superfast.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 10:33 am

Does it mean we now have ProRes playback on newer iPads? Interesting. Better news than whole iPhone 13 and cinema mode :)
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 10:47 am

That's still speculation…
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 10:56 am

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09 ... ode-prores

looks for me as confirmed news.

In addition to Cinema mode editing, iMovie also includes support for ProRes video. Available on iPhone 13 Pro, the codec offers high color fidelity and image quality in relatively small files. Importing and editing ProRes on iMovie is limited to iPhone 13, the sixth-generation iPad mini or third generation or later iPad Pro.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 11:40 am

There are quite a few, I like iMazing. It was cheaper when just introduced than now, though.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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roger.magnusson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 11:58 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/20/apples-imovie-and-clips-updated-with-support-for-cinematic-mode-prores

looks for me as confirmed news.

In addition to Cinema mode editing, iMovie also includes support for ProRes video. Available on iPhone 13 Pro, the codec offers high color fidelity and image quality in relatively small files. Importing and editing ProRes on iMovie is limited to iPhone 13, the sixth-generation iPad mini or third generation or later iPad Pro.

Yes, after installing iPadOS 15 on my 3rd gen iPad Pro I can play ProRes files in the native player. Previously I could only play ProRes in the VLC app.

I'm tempted to say that it works in the native player on Apple TV 4K (1st gen in my case) with tvOS 15 as well, but I suspect what I'm seeing is a re-encode from iCloud as there is no other way I know of getting content into the "Photos" app on Apple TV.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 12:11 pm

Mine looks like this:
Screen Shot 2021-09-21 at 14.10.25.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-21 at 14.10.25.png (846.28 KiB) Viewed 13190 times
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 pm

Yes, after installing iPadOS 15 on my 3rd gen iPad Pro I can play ProRes files in the native player. Previously I could only play ProRes in the VLC app.


How is the performance?
I think it should be way better than VLC and on M1 based iPad should be very good.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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roger.magnusson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 12:34 pm

Yes, seems better than VLC. The nice thing about the iPad Pro is that you can connect external storage. I tested a UHD ProRes 422 HQ file at 25fps on an external SSD. No issues and skimming the timeline is instant. I don't think 60fps will be a problem for playback but haven't tested yet.

Edit: UHD ProRes 444 60fps works without any obvious issues. There's no way to render ProRes on the iPad Pro though, not in the Files app, iMovie or LumaFusion. So you can't trim clips and get a new ProRes clip. When I tried trimming a ProRes clip on an external SSD it started rendering what I assume was h.264 but when I got back to it I couldn't find the new file.
Last edited by roger.magnusson on Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 2:26 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Yes, seems better than VLC. The nice thing about the iPad Pro is that you can connect external storage. I tested a UHD ProRes 422 HQ file at 25fps on an external SSD. No issues and skimming the timeline is instant. I don't think 60fps will be a problem for playback but haven't tested yet.

Edit: UHD ProRes 444 60fps works without any obvious issues. There's no way to render ProRes on the iPad Pro though, not in the Files app, iMovie or LumaFusion. So you can't trim clips and get a new ProRes clip. When I tried trimming a ProRes clip on an external SSD it started rendering what I assume was h.264 but when I got back to it I couldn't find the new file.


Thanks. Yes, no export though. On iPhone 13 Pro ProRes recording will be there, but nothing about exports.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 3:29 pm

So, a BM camera, apart from the 12K, is still better :D
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Tim Franks

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 7:40 pm

Uli Plank wrote:That's called Airdrop and it's comparatively slow.
I actually meant when you plugged the iPhone into the Mac you be able to see the iPhone in the finder and their isn’t a option to pull your media?

Also doesn’t it work over the Image Capture app?


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 8:07 pm

Great news about ProRes FINALLY coming to the iPad. I’m going to try it in Adobe Rush, I doubt it will work yet, but soon enough.

In regards to the original iPhone point… I think BMD will have to pivot some to keep the BMPCC relevant, and one area is the autofocus, which is at the level of a Canon Powershot that I bought 25 years ago. It doesn’t necessarily have to be as good as Canon or Sony, but it’s kind of embarrassing how terrible it still is. And autofocus is a HUGE usability feature, especially as very few people are shooting big budget narrative films on it, with a focus puller, etc.

The Pocket is a prosumer camera, and it needs usable autofocus.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 8:10 pm

Greg Lee wrote:Great news about ProRes FINALLY coming to the iPad. I’m going to try it in Adobe Rush, I doubt it will work yet, but soon enough.

In regards to the original iPhone point… I think BMD will have to pivot some to keep the BMPCC relevant, and one area is the autofocus, which is at the level of a Canon Powershot that I bought 25 years ago. It doesn’t necessarily have to be as good as Canon or Sony, but it’s kind of embarrassing how terrible it still is. And autofocus is a HUGE usability feature, especially as very few people are shooting big budget narrative films on it, with a focus puller, etc.

The Pocket is a prosumer camera, and it needs usable autofocus.
Maybe a stabilizer and better battery performance.
But for that I can imagine they would have to change the design which could bump the price up.


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostTue Sep 21, 2021 10:10 pm

Looking at this iPhone production camera issue from the top down, if you are president of a studio and you want to make 1 million a year and millions more in 'bonuses' you better be making some expensive to make films. i was lined up to get a RedOne cinema smartphone back in the day...., what a disappointment that was.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostWed Sep 22, 2021 9:22 pm

This hands-on review illustrates the limits of “cinematic mode”
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostWed Sep 22, 2021 10:20 pm

And even if "cinematic mode" worked exactly as advertised, who says it's "cinematic" in and of itself? There are no estimable movies with deep DOF? 16mm isn't cinematic? And what about large format shoots which appear to actively avoid conspicuous bokah?

"Cinematic" for calling home, maybe.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostWed Sep 22, 2021 10:24 pm

Cool, another PRO feature which has nothing to do with pro. These brilliant brains learn nothing from XDR display massive promo failure. Maybe next time they will be more careful with wording :D

Also, 1080p restriction- very pro orientated feature :) (or maybe Apple protecting RED :lol: )
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 6:25 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote: Also, 1080p restriction- very pro orientated feature :) (or maybe Apple protecting RED :lol: )
The depth feature is a form of computational photography and the 1080p limitation most likely has to do with processing power. The iPhone records all that depth data and allows it to be manipulated after recording on the iPhone itself. That has limits and 4K most likely lies beyond whatever the threshold is.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 6:54 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote: Also, 1080p restriction- very pro orientated feature :) (or maybe Apple protecting RED :lol: )
The depth feature is a form of computational photography and the 1080p limitation most likely has to do with processing power. The iPhone records all that depth data and allows it to be manipulated after recording on the iPhone itself. That has limits and 4K most likely lies beyond whatever the threshold is.
Exactly. And there's hope that in the future, Apple will come out with a more powerful processor that can handle higher resolution at 24p. I occasionally add blur in post to footage I've shot with my camera so I think it's a pretty neat trick for the phone.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 7:16 am

But it still looks ugly on the edges. What looked even worse in the Whodunnit example is the false bokeh on shots that were obviously wide-angle and deep DoF. They even had similar blocking as famous shots by Orson Welles, who was the first to cultivate deep DoF in cinema in a brilliant way (as in Citizen Kane). I really cringed when seeing that.

But all those people who thought "now I'll become a famous DoP" when they laid their hands on a Canon 5D Mark II will still believe that's "Pro".
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 7:18 am

Kim Janson wrote:I do not want to sync the phone to MacBook that only has 128 GB SSD.


With iMazing you can choose an external disk for the destination. And it's definitely faster by wire than by Wi-Fi.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 9:49 am

Nothing is easier than that: imazing.com

Just like with Resolve, I tend to avoid the App Store if I can get it from the source…
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 5:35 pm

Sorry for getting off-topic, but why should I trust Apple more than this author?
Apple is making a big thing of data security, but Siri is listening to everything on my iPhone by default.
If I don’t like that, I need to switch it off one app by another.

There is no privacy any more, it’s an illusion.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 7:45 pm

No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostThu Sep 23, 2021 8:59 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote: Also, 1080p restriction- very pro orientated feature :) (or maybe Apple protecting RED :lol: )
The depth feature is a form of computational photography and the 1080p limitation most likely has to do with processing power. The iPhone records all that depth data and allows it to be manipulated after recording on the iPhone itself. That has limits and 4K most likely lies beyond whatever the threshold is.


Of course it's and has massive imperfections as well.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 24, 2021 12:52 am

I get my iPhone 13 Pro tomorrow. Should I test it against the UMPG2? Seems like an unfair comparison. The URSA will win hands down.


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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 24, 2021 3:59 pm

This might be a bit premature, but IMHO the "killer feature" of the new iPhone is the video depth map that is recorded with it.

Anyone with even a small amount of VFX/CG experience knows how incredibly useful depth maps can be.

What I really want to know is if there is any way to extract the depth map apart from the footage. I assume that this is saved along with the frame data as a separate greyscale channel in the file akin to the alpha channel.

Extracting the depth map from the footage would mean a massive amount of flexibility in post in a way that nobody has ever experienced before with footage.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostFri Sep 24, 2021 8:14 pm

If it's the same lidar as in the iPhone 12 Pro it's quite underwhelming in terms of resolution.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 1:01 am

Kim Janson wrote:Now on my home MacPro that has 500 GB available on SSD and this is a 128 GB phone.

And guess what, does it work, of course not... I do not believe Apple engineers are doing this bad SW it seems to be pretty widely spread problem.

Screenshot 2021-09-24 at 13.38.07.jpg


Now imagine this kind of problems when trying to free memory for tomorrows shoot....

Edit: There was plenty of solution proposals, restart phone/mac, free more space on computer... non of that worked. there was plenty of companies selling a solution iTranferallyourstuff, I did not try those. The solution was freeing up space on iPhone, it had only 400 Mb available. Why that was needed, why Apple does not tell the problem is phone memory, I do not know. now it is backed up, but that does not much help as I can not access those files from computer...

It seems the nature of this game is, to make it as difficult as possible to manage photos, videos and other files outside Apple ecosystem, so people would pay for iCloud storage and buy new phones with bigger memory. I do not much like that.

Now I have been waiting Photos to finish this preparation for 15 minutes, I do not think it will...

Screenshot 2021-09-24 at 14.31.21.jpg


This is how I feel for Apple right now. It seems I must give up and download one of theses suspicious 3rd party applications to get the job done.

Screenshot 2021-09-24 at 14.56.07.jpg


Maybe Apple is just not for you big dawg...

I've literally never had issues backing up or moving files across.

I've worked for Apple for over 5 years and in my time, it was clear maybe Apple just wasn't the solution some people were after.

Also iCloud is like $1.50 for the starting tier....
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 1:40 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote: I've literally never had issues backing up or moving files across.
Freeing up space on an iPhone has never been simple.

I've had an iPhone since the original and I've been exclusively on Mac since 2007. And file management on iOS has never been as straight forward and flexible as managing files on macOS. It is what it is.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 2:07 am

I got my iPhone 13 Pro today. After playing with the photos from the cameras... I'll stick to a proper still photography camera with proper lenses.

I'm doubting I'll bother with any kind of test/comparison against my UMPG2 or even the Pocket 6K. Honestly I'm not convinced.

Again, I didn't get the iPhone 13 Pro for this. I got it as a natural upgrade for my previous phone and will enjoy the better photos for BTS and as well will use it for scouting purposes. But for the most part I'll stick to the real professional tools of the trade.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 4:59 am

"According to Input’s Raymond Wong, citing a conversation with Apple, one minute of 4K HDR 10-bit ProRes video shot on an iPhone 13 Pro or 13 Pro Max will take up 6GB of storage. This is more than was suggested by MacRumor’s Steve Moser, who shared a screenshot of iOS code that specifically says ‘a minute of 1-bit HDR ProRes is approximately 1GB for HD and 4GB for 4K.’ But even if it only comes in at 4GB, that’s a lot of internal storage to be filling up". Source, DPReview

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 5:48 am

Uli Plank wrote:Sorry for getting off-topic, but why should I trust Apple more than this author?
Apple is making a big thing of data security, but Siri is listening to everything on my iPhone by default.
If I don’t like that, I need to switch it off one app by another.

There is no privacy any more, it’s an illusion.

Yes, the software’s ability to respond to a voice command is programmed in. So, it’s not really listening at all times. The iPhone can only hold a small amount of audio, and it only records what happens after it is triggered by the “Hey, Siri” command. The recording is sent to Apple, but it is connected to an anonymous number.

Kim Janson wrote:So do you have the solution, how to move big number of selected files from iPhone to computer directory without a 3rd party SW, or you just go with the flow, get bigger memory when the previous iPhone gets full and/or iCloud?


Again, yes! Use the free build in App that is called Image Capture!
P.S. Photo is also a free 1st party software :mrgreen:
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Tim Franks

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 5:57 am

No it comes with MacOS.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 6:11 am

Kim Janson wrote:I do not find any image capture form my mac (Big Sur) there is the Photo that I do use, but it puts the images to data base, not as files to file system, and how do I move selected files from iPhone to mac file system.

Move so that they are easy to select, they are removed from iPhone, after they are as image/video files on the file system. There is the option to remove from iPhone when copying new images, but need to select the photos more precisely and most of them have already been copied to Photo app.

Can't be Image Capture is part of the macOS. It can't be unwittingly deleted unless you are running as root which you should not do
Image Capture comes with macOS and is also used for scanners.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 8:12 am

It's on my Mac mini too.
BTW, you can find the SanDisk iXpand Base second-hand for 15 bucks.
No, an iGPU is not enough, and you can't use HEVC 10 bit 4:2:2 in the free version.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 2:57 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Apple really messed up here, it's still a Lightning port with USB 2.0 speeds. On a 1 TB device. :roll: Wi-Fi will be a lot faster than the port (it's Wi-Fi 6). Unlike the latest iPad Pro which has a USB-C port with Thunderbolt 3. Maybe next year? At least the new iPad Mini has USB-C 3.1, while not as fast as Thunderbolt 3 it would certainly be fast enough.
"Electronic waste is an ever-growing issue. The European Commission, an executive arm of the European Union, believes it's a problem made worse by various devices utilizing different charging cables. Apple is a large culprit, thanks to its continued use of a proprietary Lightning cable for its iPhones and other devices. While some iPad models have shifted to USB-C ports for charging, the very popular iPhone uses a Lightning connector, even as most competitors have moved to the USB-C standard.

Rather than leave charging port decisions up to manufacturers, the European Commission has announced proposed legislation to force USB-C to become the 'standard port for all smartphones, tablets, cameras, headphones, portable speakers and handheld videogame consoles.' While many consumers think about phones and tablets when considering charging cables, cameras are important to photographers. Cameras using USB-C have become increasingly common, although there are still interchangeable lens cameras that utilize micro USB." - DPReview
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 7:35 pm

Yep, soon Apple may have no choice in Europe. I think this proposal will go through, but it still may take bit of time (eg. 2 years).
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rick.lang

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 8:37 pm

It’s been USB-C on other devices previously so I’m expecting it will be on the iPhone 14 next year even if it takes some re-engineering of their current plan for those phones. Several reviewers have called Apple to task on their infuriating adherence to Lightning especially on their ‘Pro’ models. I’m sure USB-C has its design drawbacks and won’t be the final word in connectors but now it’s their only wired path going forward.

Let’s hope they don’t cripple the data transfer capabilities of the USB-C connector out of spite. The most valuable company in the world needs to step up and stop holding back ubiquitous technology while pretending that USB-C will prevent Apple’s ability to innovate.
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JonPais

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 10:07 pm

rick.lang wrote:It’s been USB-C on other devices previously so I’m expecting it will be on the iPhone 14 next year even if it takes some re-engineering of their current plan for those phones. Several reviewers have called Apple to task on their infuriating adherence to Lightning especially on their ‘Pro’ models. I’m sure USB-C has its design drawbacks and won’t be the final word in connectors but now it’s their only wired path going forward.

Let’s hope they don’t cripple the data transfer capabilities of the USB-C connector out of spite. The most valuable company in the world needs to step up and stop holding back ubiquitous technology while pretending that USB-C will prevent Apple’s ability to innovate.
Mixing and matching USB cables and chargers can drastically reduce charging speed and charging speeds over USB-C vary wildly from one phone to the next. It's the same situation with data transfer speeds.

Screen Shot 2021-09-26 at 6.13.20 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2021-09-26 at 6.13.20 AM.jpg (461.74 KiB) Viewed 14864 times
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AndreeMarkefors

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 10:12 am

Maybe a moderator can move the "I can't backup/transfer my iPhone" posts to the off-topic section?

Or, preferably directly to MacRumors.com's forum. That would be a great place for that discussion.

The camera relevant discussion/comparison can remain here.
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antoine

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 5:58 pm

I'm wondering if they will ever implement ProRes RAW in an iPhone.


Also, it'd be great if we could record on all 3 lenses at the same time
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:24 pm

If licensing deal is done only by Atomos then Apple will never add ProResRAW to iPhone as due to huge numbers it would cost them a lot in fees to cover RED license. RED would be crazy happy for it :D
Only some bulk license could solve it, but knowing RED owners (bunch of money hungry lawyers) they won't go for it.
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John Brawley

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:25 pm

antoine wrote:I'm wondering if they will ever implement ProRes RAW in an iPhone.


Only when they can implement ProRes RAW in any camera. Right now there isn't a single one that can do it. I'm certain that isn't by choice.

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm

It's to protect ATOMOS business, but I doubt Apple would work with ATOMOS (it's actually ATOMOS who benefits way more from Apple brand than opposite) without securing own stake in all of it.
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John Brawley

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:38 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's to protect ATOMOS business.


I don't think so. They may have had an exclusive for 6-12 months. I'm sure they would like to have it ship in MILLIONS of phones instead a few thousand monitors made by an obscure monitor maker that aren't even Apple.

JB
Last edited by John Brawley on Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Brawley

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:40 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Would we really want to see the unprocessed RAW pixels from the tiny sensor, without lens connections and all the rest rest of calculation and sensor fusion we normally see? All that processing happens likely more effectively on the highly optimised for that purpose Phone HW than it would happen on computer.


If it was raw it would typically take up less space than encoded video.

JB
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