New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

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timbutt2

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 2:07 am

I got my iPhone 13 Pro today. After playing with the photos from the cameras... I'll stick to a proper still photography camera with proper lenses.

I'm doubting I'll bother with any kind of test/comparison against my UMPG2 or even the Pocket 6K. Honestly I'm not convinced.

Again, I didn't get the iPhone 13 Pro for this. I got it as a natural upgrade for my previous phone and will enjoy the better photos for BTS and as well will use it for scouting purposes. But for the most part I'll stick to the real professional tools of the trade.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 4:15 am

So do you have the solution, how to move big number of selected files from iPhone to computer directory without a 3rd party SW, or you just go with the flow, get bigger memory when the previous iPhone gets full and/or iCloud?

I have had iPhone and worked on Mac more than 10 years, The above problem is real and happening for many. So is my problem that iPhone 7 memory is full, and have no other need to update the phone. Just need to move over 4 years old photos and videos to computer...

The 200GB: 2.99 € iCloud is kind of tempting solution, but in few years that would be 2TB: 9.99 € and as said I have had one too many times big problems with iCloud*. For me having old photos and videos easily accessible on computer would be just the best solution. Just like I have when shooting with a real camera.

This might not be a big problem if using iPhone to shoot couple of video clips and right after moving them to computer and removing from iPhone, but if you shoot 100 clips during couple of weeks and then want to move them to computer and remove them form iCloud and iPhone, good luck.

* the problem was: I was putting big files to my documents folder, and had also plenty of files there before. I did not know that folder is synched with iCloud by default. I was on remote location, bad internet. the CPU was running 100% and eating battery fast, after some digging found it was iCloud trying to synch very aggressively over bad connection. After trying many things decided to take the computer out from iCloud, bad mistake. When doing that the computer deleted all documents from 'my documents' folder, WTF. Then I spend a lot of time trying to recover the documents from cache files, no luck. The documents where still on iCloud (mostly) but on bad connection and maybe some iCloud/computer problems at that time could not get them synched and needed those files. What a frustration. This was many years ago, maybe things have improved, but still today I do not understand how iCloud works, so it is not a service for me. I do pay for google drive though, it is very understandable service.

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:[/attachment]


Maybe Apple is just not for you big dawg...

I've literally never had issues backing up or moving files across.

I've worked for Apple for over 5 years and in my time, it was clear maybe Apple just wasn't the solution some people were after.

Also iCloud is like $1.50 for the starting tier....
Last edited by Kim Janson on Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 4:59 am

"According to Input’s Raymond Wong, citing a conversation with Apple, one minute of 4K HDR 10-bit ProRes video shot on an iPhone 13 Pro or 13 Pro Max will take up 6GB of storage. This is more than was suggested by MacRumor’s Steve Moser, who shared a screenshot of iOS code that specifically says ‘a minute of 1-bit HDR ProRes is approximately 1GB for HD and 4GB for 4K.’ But even if it only comes in at 4GB, that’s a lot of internal storage to be filling up". Source, DPReview

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Tim Franks

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 5:48 am

Uli Plank wrote:Sorry for getting off-topic, but why should I trust Apple more than this author?
Apple is making a big thing of data security, but Siri is listening to everything on my iPhone by default.
If I don’t like that, I need to switch it off one app by another.

There is no privacy any more, it’s an illusion.

Yes, the software’s ability to respond to a voice command is programmed in. So, it’s not really listening at all times. The iPhone can only hold a small amount of audio, and it only records what happens after it is triggered by the “Hey, Siri” command. The recording is sent to Apple, but it is connected to an anonymous number.

Kim Janson wrote:So do you have the solution, how to move big number of selected files from iPhone to computer directory without a 3rd party SW, or you just go with the flow, get bigger memory when the previous iPhone gets full and/or iCloud?


Again, yes! Use the free build in App that is called Image Capture!
P.S. Photo is also a free 1st party software :mrgreen:
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 5:55 am

"Again, yes! Use the free build in App that is called Image Capture!"

I really do not know what app you mean and how that would help moving the already taken photos and videos from iPhone to computer filesystem.
Last edited by Kim Janson on Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim Franks

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 5:57 am

No it comes with MacOS.

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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 6:04 am

I do not find any image capture form my mac (Big Sur) there is the Photo that I do use, but it puts the images to data base, not as files to file system, and how do I move selected files from iPhone to mac file system.

Move so that they are easy to select, they are removed from iPhone, after they are as image/video files on the file system. There is the option to remove from iPhone when copying new images, but need to select the photos more precisely and most of them have already been copied to Photo app.

And BTW, now looking the photos library, I have imported everything, but the oldest photos on Photos are from 2012, the oldest photos on iPhone are 2010. It is really hard to rely on this stuff.

Here is one of the first files the Photo had transferred, I guess I am the one with the nut, obsessed getting files out form the Apple ecosystem. Maybe it would be easier to be the other one. :D
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Tim Franks

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 6:11 am

Kim Janson wrote:I do not find any image capture form my mac (Big Sur) there is the Photo that I do use, but it puts the images to data base, not as files to file system, and how do I move selected files from iPhone to mac file system.

Move so that they are easy to select, they are removed from iPhone, after they are as image/video files on the file system. There is the option to remove from iPhone when copying new images, but need to select the photos more precisely and most of them have already been copied to Photo app.

Can't be Image Capture is part of the macOS. It can't be unwittingly deleted unless you are running as root which you should not do
Image Capture comes with macOS and is also used for scanners.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 6:30 am

The Mac Pro I am now on, does not have it, but checked MacBook Pro and it has it, no idea why.

Tim Franks wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:I do not find any image capture form my mac (Big Sur) there is the Photo that I do use, but it puts the images to data base, not as files to file system, and how do I move selected files from iPhone to mac file system.

Move so that they are easy to select, they are removed from iPhone, after they are as image/video files on the file system. There is the option to remove from iPhone when copying new images, but need to select the photos more precisely and most of them have already been copied to Photo app.

Can't be Image Capture is part of the macOS. It can't be unwittingly deleted unless you are running as root which you should not do
Image Capture comes with macOS and is also used for scanners.
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Uli Plank

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 8:12 am

It's on my Mac mini too.
BTW, you can find the SanDisk iXpand Base second-hand for 15 bucks.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 9:50 am

I tried to find on an other Mac Pro (Mojave 5.1) the Image Capture and the finder does not find it. So I googled, it is on louchpad/other folder. Do not know why finder is not finding it on Mac Pro. Spotlight though finds it also on Mac Pro, but I never use it.

Anyway, now transferring the files with it, and they come to the given directory as jpg and MOV files, YES finally. Will test after if I can also delete from iPhone using it.

The strange thing though is that oldest files it shows are from 2012, but the iPhone has images and videos starting 2010 (taken with iPhone 4 as are the 2012 images.)

Edit: this whole thing is like a nightmare, I had 4GB memory freed up, and the image capture started downloading the images, downloaded first 2000 of 12000 and hang up, no warnings no nothing just does not proceed and when troubleshooting the iPhone memory is again full and now image capture does not show any pictures when connected to iPhone... Why would image capture download fill the iPhone memory?

I am now transferring the biggest files first to manually remove them from iPhone to free some memory, but why is it converting videos when transferring them? maybe that is what is consuming more iPhone memory, but I really would like to have the files unconverted, to what is it converting them anyway.

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To convert/import one 1 Gb video takes about 4 minutes, ok this is old computer, but USB 3.0 12 core 64 Gb machine anyway....

This is pretty frustrating, though I freed again iPhone memory it is full again, with the result

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For sure on this process I will make some mistakes, loose a lot of my time, and some pictures and videos...

After so many re tries, and though the phone has now some memory free it still does this, so 5900 images not copied. :?: and I do not see any other way to delete the images from the phone then do and other import and select delete after import. What is the keep originals doing? I mean if not deleting should it not keep originals anyway, or is that preventing the conversions?

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Sorry for the long and many off topic posts, well maybe related as I never have had any problems loading videos from SD card and it is very fast compared to this and takes just few clicks. Anyway I had this hopeless fight already 2017, before bought iPhone 7, but that was also necessary as iPhone 4 was no more supported. It for sure would be easier and cost-effective, counting any value for my time, just getting a new phone with more memory, that is what I did last time and now the problem is just worse. Setting up a new phone and loading old content to it is easy, at least was 2017. Getting all the pictures and videos out form Apple ecosystem, using Apple provided tools, so that all files would be reliably transferred, so that it could be trusted...
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 2:57 pm

roger.magnusson wrote:Apple really messed up here, it's still a Lightning port with USB 2.0 speeds. On a 1 TB device. :roll: Wi-Fi will be a lot faster than the port (it's Wi-Fi 6). Unlike the latest iPad Pro which has a USB-C port with Thunderbolt 3. Maybe next year? At least the new iPad Mini has USB-C 3.1, while not as fast as Thunderbolt 3 it would certainly be fast enough.
"Electronic waste is an ever-growing issue. The European Commission, an executive arm of the European Union, believes it's a problem made worse by various devices utilizing different charging cables. Apple is a large culprit, thanks to its continued use of a proprietary Lightning cable for its iPhones and other devices. While some iPad models have shifted to USB-C ports for charging, the very popular iPhone uses a Lightning connector, even as most competitors have moved to the USB-C standard.

Rather than leave charging port decisions up to manufacturers, the European Commission has announced proposed legislation to force USB-C to become the 'standard port for all smartphones, tablets, cameras, headphones, portable speakers and handheld videogame consoles.' While many consumers think about phones and tablets when considering charging cables, cameras are important to photographers. Cameras using USB-C have become increasingly common, although there are still interchangeable lens cameras that utilize micro USB." - DPReview
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 7:35 pm

Yep, soon Apple may have no choice in Europe. I think this proposal will go through, but it still may take bit of time (eg. 2 years).
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 8:37 pm

It’s been USB-C on other devices previously so I’m expecting it will be on the iPhone 14 next year even if it takes some re-engineering of their current plan for those phones. Several reviewers have called Apple to task on their infuriating adherence to Lightning especially on their ‘Pro’ models. I’m sure USB-C has its design drawbacks and won’t be the final word in connectors but now it’s their only wired path going forward.

Let’s hope they don’t cripple the data transfer capabilities of the USB-C connector out of spite. The most valuable company in the world needs to step up and stop holding back ubiquitous technology while pretending that USB-C will prevent Apple’s ability to innovate.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSat Sep 25, 2021 10:07 pm

rick.lang wrote:It’s been USB-C on other devices previously so I’m expecting it will be on the iPhone 14 next year even if it takes some re-engineering of their current plan for those phones. Several reviewers have called Apple to task on their infuriating adherence to Lightning especially on their ‘Pro’ models. I’m sure USB-C has its design drawbacks and won’t be the final word in connectors but now it’s their only wired path going forward.

Let’s hope they don’t cripple the data transfer capabilities of the USB-C connector out of spite. The most valuable company in the world needs to step up and stop holding back ubiquitous technology while pretending that USB-C will prevent Apple’s ability to innovate.
Mixing and matching USB cables and chargers can drastically reduce charging speed and charging speeds over USB-C vary wildly from one phone to the next. It's the same situation with data transfer speeds.

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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 4:41 am

iPhone does not come with a charger, just the cable. The lightning connector is mechanically far superior and better suited for phones than USB C. Just try to clean the USB C connector after it has collected dust in pocket for couple of years. The speed they should improve, and I do not agree that this kind of incremental change should be called innovation, but other than that I agree with Apple and hope they will win this.

I have purchased, tested and thrown a way a lot of LED lights thanks to EU. It is just next to impossible to find any that produce good light, one that does not flash 100 or 50 Hz, one that produces good spectral output, one that has good diffuser, one that can be dimmed, and preferably shift the spectral to warm when dimmed, like the light pulps used to do.

And thanks to EU I click something like this, without reading at least 10 times per day, not to mention when calling some company, forced to listen for a minute how concerned they are of my privacy and that they record for training purpose.

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When EU makes an directive, to me it seems it is often from popular at that time but narrow perspective, and the end result is often something else than what the directive was marketed with. I do not see how phones failing after couple of years of use because of mechanically not suited connector would archive the goal they are marketing the idea with. I just hope they would stay a way form defining what kind of connectors our phones should have.

Soon anyway the phones have no connectors, or maybe they have only a mechanically very reliable connector for emergency charging and phone recovery purposes
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unless reguired by EU to have USB C :?

It probably was also thanks to EU the recording times where limited to 30 minutes... Does iPhone video have that limitation?

Ps. USB C on pocket cameras is good, you do not put those on pocket anyway :D
I do realy hope USB C gets more and more common and that we finally would have USB connector that does not change in few years again, but for phones, I do not think it is a well suited connector.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:14 am

3 iPhone cameras vs. 2 BMD cameras + one Sony :D

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 10:12 am

Maybe a moderator can move the "I can't backup/transfer my iPhone" posts to the off-topic section?

Or, preferably directly to MacRumors.com's forum. That would be a great place for that discussion.

The camera relevant discussion/comparison can remain here.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 2:00 pm

Yeah, maybe I took that too far, but also I do think you are missing a point if that is badly off topic and not camera related, at least when compared to many other topics here. For me a camera is many other things too than just image quality.

I still can not see photos/videos from between 2010 and 2012 with Photos or Image Capture apps. The Image capture crashes if phone is too full, and maybe for other reasons too, it is unclear why it converts to videos and what it actually does when saying converting. The transfers are very slow. Overall these are terrible tools for getting the images out from the phone.

There is the Airtrop to transfer single or few files, and when it works it is great, but not too fast. However too often it fails. It sees the computer, accepts the transfer, and then nothing happens, I transfer the files over email, and 5 minutes later the Airdrop decides to work, and all the 3 tries to send to files over Airdrop pop to downloads. This happens both with Mac Pro 2013 and 2019 MacBook Pro. This is with iPhone 7 so maybe it is just geting unsupported and everything works great with the new iPhone and M1 machines...

I got memory freed up and surprisingly upgrading to iOs 15 freed 20 Gb more and 15 Gb music files come visible, so could still remove those.

For my part image transfer subject is closed.
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antoine

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 5:58 pm

I'm wondering if they will ever implement ProRes RAW in an iPhone.


Also, it'd be great if we could record on all 3 lenses at the same time
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:24 pm

If licensing deal is done only by Atomos then Apple will never add ProResRAW to iPhone as due to huge numbers it would cost them a lot in fees to cover RED license. RED would be crazy happy for it :D
Only some bulk license could solve it, but knowing RED owners (bunch of money hungry lawyers) they won't go for it.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:25 pm

antoine wrote:I'm wondering if they will ever implement ProRes RAW in an iPhone.


Only when they can implement ProRes RAW in any camera. Right now there isn't a single one that can do it. I'm certain that isn't by choice.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm

It's to protect ATOMOS business, but I doubt Apple would work with ATOMOS (it's actually ATOMOS who benefits way more from Apple brand than opposite) without securing own stake in all of it.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:38 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's to protect ATOMOS business.


I don't think so. They may have had an exclusive for 6-12 months. I'm sure they would like to have it ship in MILLIONS of phones instead a few thousand monitors made by an obscure monitor maker that aren't even Apple.

JB
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:39 pm

Would we really want to see the unprocessed RAW pixels from the tiny sensor, without lens connections and all the rest rest of calculation and sensor fusion we normally see? All that processing happens likely more effectively on the highly optimised for that purpose Phone HW than it would happen on computer.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 6:40 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Would we really want to see the unprocessed RAW pixels from the tiny sensor, without lens connections and all the rest rest of calculation and sensor fusion we normally see? All that processing happens likely more effectively on the highly optimised for that purpose Phone HW than it would happen on computer.


If it was raw it would typically take up less space than encoded video.

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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 7:24 pm

I have no idea what Apple is doing, but for the video I would expose all the time to reduce noise, not to get too much noise vs image blur and improve image stabilisation oversample the sensors as much as possible 4x the actual FPS at least and would use at least two of the cameras to combine syntesised image, once again to get more light and in some cases better dynamic range and use also the lidar data for the depth of the field calculations. That would be a lot of RAW data, and probably not fit the standard ProRes RAW format.

It would be interesting to see the actual pixels from the sensor, but could be also choking.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostSun Sep 26, 2021 11:04 pm

RAW is your friend for sure when it comes to recording.
What you do later is another matter. Having RAW pixels means you can do all what you want and you are not limited to processing power inside camera chip.
This is exactly the reason why high-end cameras use RAW :)
Sensor size is meaningless here.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 12:25 am

So do you have the solution, how to move big number of selected files from iPhone to computer directory without a 3rd party SW, or you just go with the flow, get bigger memory when the previous iPhone gets full and/or iCloud?

I have had iPhone and worked on Mac more than 10 years, The above problem is real and happening for many. So is my problem that iPhone 7 memory is full, and have no other need to update the phone. Just need to move over 4 years old photos and videos to computer...

The 200GB: 2.99 € iCloud is kind of tempting solution, but in few years that would be 2TB: 9.99 € and as said I have had one too many times big problems with iCloud*. For me having old photos and videos easily accessible on computer would be just the best solution. Just like I have when shooting with a real camera.

This might not be a big problem if using iPhone to shoot couple of video clips and right after moving them to computer and removing from iPhone, but if you shoot 100 clips during couple of weeks and then want to move them to computer and remove them form iCloud and iPhone, good luck.

* the problem was: I was putting big files to my documents folder, and had also plenty of files there before. I did not know that folder is synched with iCloud by default. I was on remote location, bad internet. the CPU was running 100% and eating battery fast, after some digging found it was iCloud trying to synch very aggressively over bad connection. After trying many things decided to take the computer out from iCloud, bad mistake. When doing that the computer deleted all documents from 'my documents' folder, WTF. Then I spend a lot of time trying to recover the documents from cache files, no luck. The documents where still on iCloud (mostly) but on bad connection and maybe some iCloud/computer problems at that time could not get them synched and needed those files. What a frustration. This was many years ago, maybe things have improved, but still today I do not understand how iCloud works, so it is not a service for me. I do pay for google drive though, it is very understandable service.


There is so much to unpack here, I don't know if I have the energy to tackle it right now.

I'll say these few points;
At Apple there is a saying, slow down to speed up. In your situation the documents sync with iCloud could totally have been avoided if you took the time to read before clicking. I'm pretty sure we're all tech savvy in this industry but we at times tend to overlook these sort of things. Maybe in a rush or just bad luck. Don't turn on Desktop or Documents. It's too easy to forget what you have in those places and that very quickly bottlenecks your iCloud capacity.

So do you have the solution, how to move big number of selected files from iPhone to computer directory without a 3rd party SW, or you just go with the flow, get bigger memory when the previous iPhone gets full and/or iCloud?


Yeah I use Airdrop. It's stupid fast.

Another major issue you can avoid is DON'T WAIT 4 YEARS!!!! till you remove your content. Do them in batches every few months. Totally avoids issues like these. Just like your email accounts, keep them clean and organised. Makes life easier.

I don't use the Photos app on my Macs at all. It can be useful for some, but I really don't need it.

I'd far rather buy a 1tb USB3 drive every few years and just throw all my photos and videos on there. Sorting them by month or year etc. I think the Photos app is a good tool, just not one I find myself needing.

Please take these points as helpful friendly ones. No ill intent is meant at all.

As for the iPhone 13 Pro Max. Damn I'm so impressed with the cinematic mode in video. That post focus ability is amazing in my opinion. The video the phone produces for me is great. Nice bright monitor, 3 lens options. Prores coming. I'm totally stoked on my purchase. upgraded from the iPhone 8. So it was a massive one for me and the video stabilisation!!! Damn! really can't compare this phone to the BM cameras. But when it comes to capturing those Spontaneous life moments, I think you'll capture more on a phone. And that's where it becomes invaluable to me. Keep adding more awesome features to these phones I say. At the end of the day, the "filmmakers/photographers eye" is what people will pay for.
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 5:32 am

High end cameras are all about having the best possible sensor and using best possible lenses and doing minimal processing if any.

iPhone is all about sensor fusion and processing because it can not have that good sensors or lenses.

I just do not think normal RAW would make any sense when it comes to iPhone, they could have maybe some synthesised RAW to include some of the sensor data, but do they not already have that, you can change focus and depth of field* after the shoot.

*(note: not f-stop or actual focus, just the processing for image that is pretty much sharp from 1 m to infinity)

This seems to have many good points, except he is obsessed with 24 fps and Apple did absolutely the right choice with 30 fps as the content will anyway be viewed on 60 Hz monitors mostly.



As summary, nice tricks, for some part pretty good, looks good on small screen like iPhone, the artificial look is easy to spot on big screen so you might want to tune the artificial depth of field a bit milder than default. Some bad looking lens flares.



Andrew Kolakowski wrote:RAW is your friend for sure when it comes to recording.
What you do later is another matter. Having RAW pixels means you can do all what you want and you are not limited to processing power inside camera chip.
This is exactly the reason why high-end cameras use RAW :)
Sensor size is meaningless here.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:20 am

All what you say goes with RAW perfectly.
You can record compressed RAW, with huge amount of dynamic metadata ( including eg. some info which later speeds up processing) etc. In such a case RAW data makes most sense. You can shift a lot of existing chip processing into other tasks ( like noise profiling). We waste a lot of in-camera power to develop RAW. You can skip some processing and have way longer recording due to saved energy.
RAW is just a B&W with known pattern. There are definitely ways to improve compression on RAW, but no one really explored it yet ( maybe because of stupid RED patent). There are no studies how much you can compress RAW before you start start having issue debayering it. You can definitely go very high ( not just current eg 12:1) using codecs like h265. RAW doesn’t have to be linked with top quality. You can store heavily compressed RAW as well they way how you store 100mbit final video now.
RAW is not your enemy in what you describing. It would only help ( but unfair RED patent blocking all of it).
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:35 am

Damn! really can't compare this phone to the BM cameras. But when it comes to capturing those Spontaneous life moments, I think you'll capture more on a phone. And that's where it becomes invaluable to me. Keep adding more awesome features to these phones I say. At the end of the day, the "filmmakers/photographers eye" is what people will pay for.


Exactly. Please ask Apple to stop making this crazy advertising about PRO and that now iPhone is a cinematic tool etc. It’s not. It’s as you described it: great tool for capturing spontaneous moments.
Maybe they will listen to you :D
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:38 am

"Apple ProRes RAW applies ProRes compression technology to RAW image data from the camera sensor."

What you describe sounds like something else.

As I imagine, is that they do over sample the sensors (frame rate) to get all the light, even at 4x oversampling that would be 4x more RAW data. As I imagine they combine pixels from multiple sensors, that would be 2x or 3x the RAW data + IMU, Compass, GPS and Lidar.

Typically is the RAW not much more data than the compressed files anyway, even compressed RAW. The h265 happens likely on dedicated highly optimised HW.

Looking the above video, it is clear the image quality from where they start the sensor fusion is not great. Nowhere near to be compared to image Pocket 4k produces, especially so on dim conditions.

But as I am mostly just guessing, I will stop arguing on this, time will tell.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 9:02 am

Not sure if you understand what RAW video is.
ProResRAW is like any other RAW and it's what I'm describing. It's just compressed RAW pixels data (with some needed metadata). That's it.

4x oversampling or not is irrelevant. You can store all oversampled pixels (then there is a lot of data), or 'average' them and then store (still as RAW), so there is less to store. Not a problem. You can do either. If you have few sensors then this make RAW data definitely bigger.

Uncompressed RAW is 3x less data then debayered one- this is why we like RAW. It's 1 B&W plane (you can think about it as Y channel from YUV signal).
We can take RAW and compress it as much as needed the same way we compress debayered video. Problem is RED patent which forces people to pay licensing fee (or face patent infringement court case).
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 9:37 am

Here is a test shot with BMD camera and B4 lens, it has no other than demonstration value, and this is something iPhone could not do.



Not unless it would be possible to attach B4 lens or something similar to iPhone, and attach that to iPhone camera with some adapter likely would not provide wanted result.

But if the iPhone would have fast USB, it would be possible to attache a bare sensor with lens mount to iPhone and that would open interesting possibilities.

There is DxO One, but I wonder why we have not seen more accessories like that. Maybe because of slow speed USB.

Screenshot 2021-09-27 at 12.40.49.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-27 at 12.40.49.jpg (128.26 KiB) Viewed 1509 times


Here is an other one playing around with similar BMD + B4 setup and true image blur and shallow depth of field. These old B4 lenses have their flaws compared to modern lenses, but their strengths also, build like a tank, par-focal, big zoom range, f1.8, in-build extender etc. and they are pretty inexpensive (SD lenses/used)

Last edited by Kim Janson on Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 am

Exactly. Can someone make such a video on new iPhone?

Kim Janson wrote:But if the iPhone would have fast USB, it would be possible to attache a bare sensor with lens mount to iPhone and that would open interesting possibilities.

But then it's anymore just compact iPhone body.
Whole things is way more problematic to operate etc.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 10:08 am

The fist step could be to provide protocol to use the iPhone as monitor/recorder for any cameras.

and most cameras can be controlled over USB, so iPhone could also control them while acting as monitor and recorder.

The second step could be a camera, or sensor + lens mount that works only with iPhone.

If they would make fast USB available on the back surface, small camera units that would look more or less as MagSafe.

Screenshot 2021-09-27 at 13.16.38.jpg
Screenshot 2021-09-27 at 13.16.38.jpg (295.98 KiB) Viewed 1467 times


And then there could be also more serious optional cameras. This kind of approach would make it a true cinematographer tool. Kind of like RED tried, but they could not make a good phone and dried to make too much of it, a 3D display, bad mistake.

But I guess it is not the direction Apple is interested. They just want to make it good enough for masses and sell millions of them, and have incremental improvements, for the masses to have reason to buy new one. Nothing wrong on that, but kind of sad and missed opportunity for us.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 11:05 am

Kim Janson wrote:But I guess it is not the direction Apple is interested. They just want to make it good enough for masses and sell millions of them, and have incremental improvements, for the masses to have reason to buy new one. Nothing wrong on that, but kind of sad and missed opportunity for us.


Exactly.
Also- whole modular thing would be actually way more complicated than your "optimistic" description.

Missed opportunity, hmm...? It's just something which anyone can do, but it's faaaar from easy, so no one really wants to even try. RED is a good example.

What Apple has done it's all fine and pushes things further. I just have no idea why they trying to sell all of it as something which it's not! No idea why they try so hard (sometimes with ridiculous outcomes) to sell it as PRO/cinematic feature instead of telling it's an amazing ability for an average iPhone user. Absolutely no idea what they are trying to achieve. So far I would say it worked actually against them, but somehow their marketing department with every new version keeps going further into this crap.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:11 pm

Kim Janson wrote:This seems to have many good points, except he is obsessed with 24 fps and Apple did absolutely the right choice with 30 fps as the content will anyway be viewed on 60 Hz monitors mostly.



This makes no sense. It's been like this for years. Computer monitors have always been 60Hz+. Many TV's in 50Hz power environments are as well.

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 pm

The 16" MacBook Pro has adjustable refresh rates.
Screen Shot 2021-09-27 at 8.29.05 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-09-27 at 8.29.05 PM.png (615.02 KiB) Viewed 1372 times
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:33 pm

Is iPhone restricted to fixed 30fps in cinema mode? I though it's up to 30fps, due to processing power limits. If it's 30fps only then it's definitely a PRO feature for famous directors :lol:

Most TVs (or good monitors) are multi refresh rate, so not a problem. Better new TVs are VRR (variable refresh rate) so can dynamically sync to given signal at any rate up to some max limit (eg. 120).
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 1:35 pm

JonPais wrote:The 16" MacBook Pro has adjustable refresh rates.
Screen Shot 2021-09-27 at 8.29.05 PM.png


Including 2x23.976Hz and 2x24Hz which his actually a nice touch.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 2:14 pm

With FiLMiC Pro you can get other frame rates (at least on my SE II).
Don't approach Resolve with your expectations from other NLEs! They are all different.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 4:11 pm

Uli Plank wrote:With FiLMiC Pro you can get other frame rates (at least on my SE II).


My main question is, does Filmic Pro actually record true 24p, or does it do an on-the-fly conversion from 30p?
>>Kays Alatrakchi
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 5:51 pm

It doesn't look like any fast conversion I know.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:43 pm

Here’s some food for thought regarding video on the iPhone 13 published today in an AppleInsider article on a blog with Apple representatives:

"This really speaks to the amount of processing power in the iPhone, and in fact we've got so much processing power now that we're able to take these same computational [still] photography techniques and introduce them in the video world to bring computational videography."

"Really, we are now applying all of the same machine learning magic we learned in stills to video." McCormack says the iPhone now "segments each frame in real-time, and we process the sky and the skin and foliage individually, and this takes our already industry-leading video and makes it even better by giving us better clarity and more detail in different parts of the image.”
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Kim Janson

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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 pm

the iPad pro 120 Hz screen is super nice, it removes the pain of 24 fps on youtube.

Even if the laptop supports 48 Hz who goes to change that to see 24 fps video. On TV it happens automatically, not on computers.

I do hope the next Mac Air has 120 Hz screen and the iPad pro would be gone.

But over all I really do hope people would not post 24 fps videos on YouTube, it does not make them Cinematographers, and it does look really bad for me on 60 Hz monitor, especially if there is a lot of movement and they used short shutter time.

So kudos for Apple for making 30 fps only.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 10:07 pm

Kim Janson wrote:
So kudos for Apple for making 30 fps only.


You don't get it- they made it for pro cinematographers no average iPhone users :lol:
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 10:10 pm

rick.lang wrote:"Really, we are now applying all of the same machine learning magic we learned in stills to video." McCormack says the iPhone now "segments each frame in real-time, and we process the sky and the skin and foliage individually, and this takes our already industry-leading video and makes it even better by giving us better clarity and more detail in different parts of the image.”


Great- we already had that with one of the Chinese brands (if I'm correct) and the moon. You take photo of the moon and it "makes it better" by filling with more details from better photos. Amazing technology :roll:
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New iPhone. Better than a BM Camera?

PostMon Sep 27, 2021 10:13 pm

Kim Janson wrote:the iPad pro 120 Hz screen is super nice, it removes the pain of 24 fps on youtube.

Even if the laptop supports 48 Hz who goes to change that to see 24 fps video. On TV it happens automatically, not on computers.



This is just shows poor state of industry and lack of innovation (even if it's so simple).
If you used good open source players on Windows then you would know that they can do it automatically (been doing it for years). There is also such a support in some pro tools like Flame or Scratch.

If Apple introduced different refresh rates for built-in screens recently (this is new thing as my older 16 inch model doesn't do it) then there must be some use for it.
Are you sure latest QT X doesn't adjust refresh rate (or FCP X)?

update: looks like they ask you to do it manually (very modern way)
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