s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

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Adam Langdon

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s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostThu Oct 07, 2021 1:16 pm

I currently have two s35 sensor-sized cameras, G2/P6kPro.
I'm looking to invest in PL mount lenses, but i'm trying to figure out if getting VV/FF lenses should be the route i need to take vs buying s35 coverage lenses.

What i'm currently looking at:

VV/FF
- Vespid Primes (but i'm not too fond of the Chromatic Aberration)
- Old Zeiss Jena Still lenses m42 (but the angst of dealing with non-cinema-style focus, aperture, rotating fronts, etc)
- Canon FD lenses (same reasons as previous)
- Zeiss CP.2, 21mm and up to cover FF (correct me if i'm wrong)
- SLR Magic APO Microprimes (i love these lenses, had the EF version, but the lack of wide-angle is bothersome)

s35
- Lomo Standard Speeds (funky and rotating fronts, i believe)
- Sony CineAlta Mkii Prime Lenses (i really like how these look, but big and bulky)
- A Pair of Angenieux zooms, or other brands

Any thoughts?
Ursa Mini Pro G2 - Pocket 6K Pro - Vintage Russian Glass - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 - Canon 17-55mm f2.8 - SLR Magic APO Microprimes (w/ Tokina 17mm f3.5 RMC) - Mac Pro 2019, 96GB Ram, Two W5700XT GPU Modules, 24-Core CPU
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostFri Oct 08, 2021 5:37 am

Matthew Duclos says:

"The CP.2 lenses are the exact same optical design as the ZF.2 lenses with the exception of the aperture blades. The aperture in the CP.2 is a more round, cinematic style aperture. They also limited the maximum aperture throughout the CP.2 range in order to keep the lens set constant which meant taking the lowest common denominator, except for the 18mm. The other reason they did this was to make room for their Zeiss CP.2 Super Speeds which do not have a limited diaphragm and will open all the way to T1.5."

MORE LENS OPTIONS THAN EVER

http://matthewduclos.wordpress.com/2012 ... than-ever/

Lenstest_Kamerawerk did a series of comparison tests of the Sony CineAlta PK6 series PL mount primes against other brands in 2014:

"With this lens-test report we would like to provide a comparison between the new Sony SCL-PK6/F CineAlta PL Mount lenses and other state of the art products such as Cooke S4, Zeiss Compact Prime and Arri Ultra Prime lenses.

...Conclusion The tested Sony SCL PL Mount prime lenses have shown great imaging characteristics.

Contrast performance, sharpness and chromatic aberration are equal if not even better compared to its competitor lenses Cooke S4, Arri Ultra Prime or Zeiss Compact Prime.
As illustrated in the figure above, SCL 135mm, 25mm and 20mm actually show best mean MTF characteristics of all lenses!

All together, we have to say, Sony SCL lenses are a fantastic choice, for a low price!"

https://www.kamerawerk.ch/data/images/3 ... rawerk.pdf

Here are some comments from reddit.com/r/cinematography:

robmneilson said:

"I have a set of these and i’ve been extremely pleased with them. Affordable price, sharp wide open, no breathing and a fairly neutral look. Only downside is their weight. [deleted] I've shot with them a few times with the F65. I really like them. Sure, they're heavier than say Cooke minis or CP.2s, but they have a solid feel to them and are smooth."

ImmobileLizard said:

"I used them on a Ursa Mini Pro this last weekend and didn't see any issue."

jonathan_92 said:

"They're not bad. They don't look overly-crisp, but they're still sharp. The flares are an odd green color as I remember.
F2 on the 135mm is quite a sight!"

Sony PWM-F55 with CineAlta lenses McDonald's commercial

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1548124652203412

From Facebook's Sony PXW FS7 User Group Jeremy Rothman said:

"I use these (SCL-P35/50/85) on my FS7 with a Wooden PL adapter. ...I had them looked at Talamas in Boston and they are on the warmer side. It was compared to a 25mm CP2 that I have and they were on par. They are bulkier than the CP2 lenses, but I like their look."

NateWeaver said:

"…The Sony primes, btw, are largely better than the Zeiss CP2s. The CP2s are a big mixed bag image quality wise, just because Zeiss took a bunch of stills designs they had hanging around from the last 15 years and repurposed them. Any Zeiss that started out as a cine design from the last 15 years is much better (Variable Primes, Ultra Primes, Compact Zooms, etc)"

HunterHughes said:

"Definitely the CP.2s... Definitely NOT the sonys. I work with the cp.2s all the time and they are fantastic. Great bokeh, very sharp, very lightweight, lovely image, rent easily. I've also worked with the sonys... They can make a nice image BUT they are unreliable. They don't travel well. The internal focus mechanism gets knocked out of place easily. My local rental house in atlanta had to go thru 3 kits before they were sent one that was acceptable. They are very heavy in comparison so docu work is gonna be a pain. Between the two, go CP.2 without a doubt. I would also check out the canon primes, they looks great in tandum with the sony color science and I've also heard good things about the xenon primes but I'm still waiting on my demo. The cp.2 35mm superspeed is probably my favorite. The 85 is also fantastic, great for interviews. And the 135 is just an awesome lens. The 50 I use the least."

JoshuaRyanPerez said:

"In a side by side comparison on image quality the Sony's and the Ziess CP2's are neck and neck - But the sonys are substantially heavier - I have used them for a while and have never encountered the issues that are stated above but that doesn't mean they are untrue. Based on how they seem to be built i would think they are alot more durable and battle ready in comparison to the CP.2's. The 135mm is a very nice piece of glass for those super slomo beauty shots (Especially in 2k center scan) essentially turning the 135mm into a 300mm - Really the choice i would think here is if your looking to put emphasis on renting them out it may be more difficult to rent the sonys because of brand awareness with lenses. Also if your willing to lug these big guys around for your shoots."

I got a set of the early Sony T2.0 PL mount PK3 primes at a good price. On the 85mm, the focus ring turns to an 11mm protrusion from the flange. On the 50mm, the focus ring turns to a 13mm protrusion from the flange. On the 35mm, the focus ring turns to a 15mm protrusion from the flange. On all 3 of my Sony SCL-P35T20 35mm, SCL-P50T20 and SCL-P85T20 PL mount lenses the flange of the PL mount appears to be around 2.33mm wide at the base, with a taper on the inside edge. It does not fit the Bezamod PL mount adapter for my Blackmagic BMPCC 6K or my @ Pro PL mount adapter for my BMPCC 4K. My other PL mount lenses look like they have a flange thickness of close to 1.66mm, without as much of a taper, just a slight chamfer. The edge of the tapered flange on the Sony lenses look like they are slightly thinner or the same thickness as my other Duclos Cine Mod PL lens. This stainless steel Sony flange is a flat ring that is held in with 8 screws, so it could be removed and replaced easily if the correct flange could be located.

All of the Sony PK3 lenses have a the↓10↑: RoHS symbol, which I thought meant that it has lead-free solder at first, but I heard that a Nikon tech said a "10" in a recycling logo stands for a particular type of plastic, just as any other number does. It means that, when you do recycle it, you need to recycle it with "10" type plastics. I'm not sure if the PK6 lenses have this RoHS symbol.
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Adam Langdon

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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostFri Oct 08, 2021 10:25 am

Thank you for the extensive answer!
Lots to consider.
Ursa Mini Pro G2 - Pocket 6K Pro - Vintage Russian Glass - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 - Canon 17-55mm f2.8 - SLR Magic APO Microprimes (w/ Tokina 17mm f3.5 RMC) - Mac Pro 2019, 96GB Ram, Two W5700XT GPU Modules, 24-Core CPU
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Jamie LeJeune

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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostSat Oct 09, 2021 3:52 am

Adam Langdon wrote: SLR Magic APO Microprimes (i love these lenses, had the EF version, but the lack of wide-angle is bothersome)
I got a full set of PL mount SLR Magic APO Microprimes and added a PL mount Tokina Cinema ATX 11-20mm T2.9 for wide angles. I've been very happy with the combo. But, the Tokina is s35, so if/when you make the jump, it wouldn't be able to go along.
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostSat Oct 09, 2021 12:40 pm

I don’t think the Sony lenses are FF. They were originally designed for the s35 PMW-F3 and discontinued before Sony manufactured a FF sensor Cinema cam. If they cover at all it’s by happenstance not design.

Good Luck
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostSun Oct 10, 2021 11:48 pm

There are several M42 lenses that can be adapted to PL Mount.

"Industar 50-2 50mm (KMZ) – YES
Helios 44-2 58mm (KMZ & Valdai) – YES
Helios 44m-1 58mm (M39 mount) – YES
Carl Zeiss Jena 35mm F2.8 (ALU/silver version) – YES (unconfirmed)
Meyer Görlitz Primotar 180 F3.8 – YES
Pentacon 135mm F2.8 (15 blade version) YES (with improved adapter)
Pentacon 300mm F4.5 – YES (with improved adapter)"

Using M42 lenses on PL cameras | Comparability List

https://www.vintagelensesforvideo.com/u ... l-cameras/

A very inexpensive lens with character that can be adapted to PL mount is the Soviet-era Industar 50-2 F/3.5 50mm. I got one for $58 USD with M42 to PL Mount adapter. At that price it's like dinner and a movie with a blind date. What have you got to lose?

It is a Tessar design that has 4 elements in 3 groups. This design is known for it's 3D presentation. The focus ring rotates 180 degrees, the minimum focusing distance is 1 meter, when focusing, the front lens rotates, and the lens expands by 1 cm of the barrel. The number of blades of the diaphragm is 7 pieces, the diaphragm changes smoothly without fixed values. Although it is a full frame lens, some have reported some vignetting and softness in the corners. Of course, when you use it on a Super 35 camera, you don't see these imperfections since they are cropped out.

Pentaxforums
Sharpness 9.0
Aberrations 8.2
Bokeh 7.9
Handling 7.6
Value 9.6

RedTurian said:

"...It's quite sharp, 38/26 (lpmm) (nothing incredible but very surprising for a lens this small), easy to maintain (you litteraly can grease the focusing helicoid without disassembling the lens), cheap (got mine for 20$)."

jerry7171 said:

"...I found that a lens hood is a must. Otherwise it is prone to flares. It can be tricky to focus. It takes a little playing around with it to get used to it. Unlike many lenses, you have to turn the focus ring in the opposite direction of what you are used to. I found that it is not the easiest lens to use in low light. This is a lens that should be used in normal or bright conditions. I can use it under dim lighting now as I've been using it extensively. This is a lens that can deliver great photos when you learn to work within it's limitations. The bokeh is nothing special but it can create the sought-after bubble bokeh in the right situations. It is always tack-sharp in the center but I have to stop it down to get nearly edge to edge sharpness. The photos I shoot usually need a little post production to really bring out the clarity, sharpness and colors. I'm not a street shooter but this would make a great lens for people that are looking for a pancake for that reason. I can't recommend it for action shots but it is great for still-lifes, landscapes and other similar subjects."

Ana_Digi_Tele said:

"Very interesting little lens, probably a Tessar design? Images are sharp at F8 and good at F3.5 on a crop sensor. Bokeh is limited with this lens and can be somewhat untidy looking with background light. When it comes to value one may add a little bit more money an buy an overall better performing lens like the Helios 44 58mm F2."

photocles said:

"...From a performance standpoint, I'm generally impressed with this lens. It's quite sharp in the center even from wide open and I would call it razor sharp across 3/4 of the frame at f8. However, my copy never achieves great corner sharpness on APS-C even above f5.6 and on film corners show obvious blur. On the other hand, this lens is consistent enough from f5.6 to f/8 to work around it if one is aware of these limitations. Metering between f3.5 and f/8 on my K-30 is also excellent and very consistent. Not so much with K-x. Flare and loss of contrast is a big issue, even with the tiny front element. However, one can easily shield it with one hand since the lens is so small."

Finn said:

"...The only downside is the continuous aperture adjustment. I find that I sometimes turn it along with the (very long throw) focus ring when focusing, which is kind of irritating."

Industar-50 50mm F3.5

https://www.pentaxforums.com/userreview ... -f3-5.html

"I have made some impressions for macro photo & video with extension tubes:"

Macro photography for 25$ (Industar 50/2 F3.5)



LENS: INDUSTAR 50-2 3,5

https://www.lomography.com/lenses/403-i ... 3-5/photos

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Industar 50-2 F/3.5
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Industar 50-2 F/3.5
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industar-50-2-3-5.jpg
Industar 50-2 F/3.5
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Adam Langdon

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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostWed Oct 13, 2021 6:08 pm

i ended up finding a (partial) set of SLR Magic APO Microprimes in PL Mount.
I'll supplement it with a 25mm of the same type and a Tokina RMC 17mm f3.5 that i'm modding for my use.
Ursa Mini Pro G2 - Pocket 6K Pro - Vintage Russian Glass - Tamron 24-70mm f2.8 - Canon 17-55mm f2.8 - SLR Magic APO Microprimes (w/ Tokina 17mm f3.5 RMC) - Mac Pro 2019, 96GB Ram, Two W5700XT GPU Modules, 24-Core CPU
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostWed Oct 13, 2021 9:16 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:Lomo Standard Speeds (funky and rotating fronts, i believe)

If you use a cheap OCT-18 to PL mount adapter, it locks the focus ring and you cannot use an optional follow focus gear and follow focus solution since the front rotates during focusing. The ARRI S mount works the same way and Rafcamera sells adapters like these to remedy this:

OCT-18 lens to Arri PL camera mount adapter SKU 0711332404304 $149 USD

This adapter works correctly with any OCT-18 lenses - it holds inner optical block still, and allows focusing mount of the lens rotate as it should.
Rafcamera also sells Lomo lenses at fair prices.

You may have to modify this adapter to allow it to work with a Wooden Camera PL mount mod for your BMPCC 6K Pro however.

"Antoine B. wrote:

The adapter was too thick
The adapter was too thick to get into the PL mount (wooden camera PL mount for bmpcc6k pro). I had to remove some of the thickness to make it fit."

Re: Pl mount adapters for BM 6k pro

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=140144&p=790953&hilit=+1mm+needs+to+be+milled+#p790953

paulcurtis said:
"...I had a cooke 50 and a Lomo 50 together. They were 99% identical in any of my tests, from bokeh, flare, look and so on. To the point where i was fairly convinced that formula must be very similar. I doubt anyone except someone looking very closely would tell them apart."

Vladimir Cazacu said:

"...The PO3-3M is very similar to the Series 1 Speed Panchro 50mm F2. The flares and overall contrast of the lenses show some subtle differences due to the different coatings used but other than that it's really hard to tell them apart."

50mm Charts: OKS vs Cooke | oks1-50-1 vs Cooke Speed Panchro vs Cooke SP Ser.II

https://www.reduser.net/forum/shooting- ... -sp-ser-ii

LomoOKCPO3-3Mf2_50MphotC.png
Lomo RO3-3M 2/50mm USSR 35 MM Cine Lens
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LomoOKCPO3-3Mf2_50MphotF.png
Lomo RO3-3M 2/50mm USSR 35 MM Cine Lens
LomoOKCPO3-3Mf2_50MphotF.png (925.87 KiB) Viewed 693 times

LomoOKCPO3-3Mf2_50Mphot.png
Lomo RO3-3M 2/50mm USSR 35 MM Cine Lens
LomoOKCPO3-3Mf2_50Mphot.png (730.47 KiB) Viewed 693 times

These Lomo lenses were designed for Konvas cine 35mm film cameras that use a 22mm x 16mm image circle.

Using the Pythagorean Theorem:
The Lomo image circle:
22mm squared + 16mm squared = diagonal squared
484 + 256 = 740 = √740 = 27.2mm

BMPCC 6K's 6K image circle:
23.1mm squared + 12.99mm squared = diagonal squared
533.61 + 300.07 = 833.68 = √833.68 = 28.874mm

BMPCC 6K's 5.7K image circle:
5.7K 5744/6144=.93489583 x23.1= 21.6mm
3024/3456 = .875 x 12.99 = 11.36625
21.6mm squared + 11.37mm squared = diagonal squared
466.56 + 129.2 = 595.75 = √595.75 = 23.99mm

The Konvas camera's 22mm x 16mm image circle that these Lomo lenses were designed for is slightly smaller than the BMPCC 6K 16:9 6K image circle, so their lenses may vignette at the wider focal lengths. The Lomo lenses would not vignette when using the BMPCC 6K's 17:9 5.7K sensor area.
Last edited by dondidnod on Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostWed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:i ended up finding a (partial) set of SLR Magic APO Microprimes in PL Mount.
I'll supplement it with a 25mm of the same type and a Tokina RMC 17mm f3.5 that i'm modding for my use.
I’ve found the 16-28 Tokina PL blends well with the SLR Magic APOs. It does have some CA, but the tint and rendering is nice.

Two versions of them out now, in case you are renting I would look at both of them.


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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostSun Oct 17, 2021 12:36 am

Here's another affordable lens with character.

eBay vendor photosniper said of the LOMO OKC PO61-5 f/2.5 28mm lens:

"Fully cover Sony NEX crop 1.5 and Lumix. No any vignette. ...dark corners on FF 24x36"

When using a camera without the reflective problem caused by OLPF filters (BM cameras), the extra contrast provided by all of the coatings on the rear lens surfaces on modern lenses is not as necessary.

LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28A.png
LOMO OKC PO61-5 f/2.5 28mm
LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28A.png (966.25 KiB) Viewed 262 times

LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28.png
LOMO OKC PO61-5 f/2.5 28mm
LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28.png (815.67 KiB) Viewed 262 times

LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28B.png
LOMO OKC PO61-5 f/2.5 28mm
LOMOOKCPO61-5f2.5_28B.png (658.02 KiB) Viewed 262 times
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Re: s35 vs VV/FF lenses -- Buying to "future proof"?

PostSun Oct 17, 2021 11:57 pm

Adam, all Zeiss CP's are "full frame" and have interchangeable mounts including the 15mm, 18mm and 21mm.

Nikon, EF, E, MFT, PL and now LPL

They are kind of the Toyota of lenses. They are a bit boring, but they sure do cover a lot of ground. Lot's of focal lengths available, very lightweight.

I own every single focal length including the Makro. They are just workhorse lenses.

I'm a fan of small lenses. I like S35 because it typically means the lenses are physically smaller. CP's are a rare exception. They are very lightweight.

JB
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