Braw for smart phones

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ricardo marty

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Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 12:06 am

If BMD made a special flavor of braw for smartphones it would be a great marketing strategy. Braw could work much better than pro res raw because the files are smaller and better suited for a smartphone and regular computers. Of course, it would make Cupertino furious.

Ricardo Marty
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Travis Hodgkinson

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 2:11 am

Apple won't allow it. Prores is amazing already. BM won't want to lose customers to mobile phones.
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ricardo marty

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 2:49 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:Apple won't allow it. Prores is amazing already. BM won't want to lose customers to mobile phones.


I'm talking about a special version, not the whole braw.

Ricardo Marty
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Travis Hodgkinson

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 am

Yeah I got that. I don't think Apple would as they have Prores.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 10:12 am

Braw should be tailored to sensor, how many sensors in the world of mobile?
It’s just complex to do in cinema cameras world, where you have less sensors and less color science.
Braw is not a codec like others, is tight to sensor’a color science and it’s expansive to develop for so many sensors like mobile worlds
And to be pragmatic, how many people would have a raw file in its mobile device? How many people want to have custom player to read on computer their phones’files?
Told from a guy that use raw in photo from 2004, and in video from first red, but… common people (the mobile market) are not so interest to it.
Think about actual marketing of newer iPhone 13, they point on advertise cinematic mode, not on prores recording be cause most of people when you talk about space of video pro are frightened from size.


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ricardo marty

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostThu Oct 21, 2021 11:24 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:Braw should be tailored to sensor, how many sensors in the world of mobile?
It’s just complex to do in cinema cameras world, where you have less sensors and less color science.
Braw is not a codec like others, is tight to sensor’a color science and it’s expansive to develop for so many sensors like mobile worlds
And to be pragmatic, how many people would have a raw file in its mobile device? How many people want to have custom player to read on computer their phones’files?
Told from a guy that use raw in photo from 2004, and in video from first red, but… common people (the mobile market) are not so interest to it.
Think about actual marketing of newer iPhone 13, they point on advertise cinematic mode, not on prores recording be cause most of people when you talk about space of video pro are frightened from size.


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BMD should work with a company like samsung. Offer cinema quality and free DR. This will put DR in the hands of thousands of phone content producers with a lighter version of braw. A lot easier to bring them into the bmd fold.


Ricardo Marty
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 8:47 am

ricardo marty wrote:
carlomacchiavello wrote:Braw should be tailored to sensor, how many sensors in the world of mobile?
It’s just complex to do in cinema cameras world, where you have less sensors and less color science.
Braw is not a codec like others, is tight to sensor’a color science and it’s expansive to develop for so many sensors like mobile worlds
And to be pragmatic, how many people would have a raw file in its mobile device? How many people want to have custom player to read on computer their phones’files?
Told from a guy that use raw in photo from 2004, and in video from first red, but… common people (the mobile market) are not so interest to it.
Think about actual marketing of newer iPhone 13, they point on advertise cinematic mode, not on prores recording be cause most of people when you talk about space of video pro are frightened from size.


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BMD should work with a company like samsung. Offer cinema quality and free DR. This will put DR in the hands of thousands of phone content producers with a lighter version of braw. A lot easier to bring them into the bmd fold.


Ricardo Marty
I’m agree with you but, how many cost this research to Blackmagic Design or to Samsung?
Invest some time and million $ to single sensor? How many user buy it?

Remember that phone photo video are deep different from cinema shooting. Phone do computation photography to give you a developed videos and photo for taste of most of people, this developing is after debayering process.

Are you sure that there is a market for a phone can shoot raw and picture are deep different from classic shooting?
Remember most of thread here about new users that cannot understand why cinema camera not had denoiser in camera, when they arrive from dslr or camcorder that give them clean picture, and they are aware that they had bought a cinema camera.

I will be happy if I can shoot a clean and raw video from my smartphone, I’m the first to buy new app to shoot raw photo with it, but I think there is not a so big market to develop it for video, especially on android market where you have to deal with thousands of sensor every year
Ask yourself why Apple, that develop prores raw, that create and profile their device, not add prores raw to their phone. They sell with cross accorded with Red to other people like DJI and ATOMOS.

Apple and Blackmagic Design had long time according between hardware and software but at today (I’m writing from an iPhone) they not add braw to iPhone. May be the first step will be a player for IOS, newer cpu /gpu should be enough powerful to manage it.
Cross fingers


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ricardo marty

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 3:17 pm

Apple will never implemement braw. Apple just opened a new market and created a specific iphone for it. Braw has an easier codec and a free top tier nle. It will take money but thats the nature of the beast. If bmd for whatever reason does not implement ppr then it must somehow expand its user base. Samsung would only need to select a phone for this not the whole line. And they can advertise the free nle.

Ricardo Marty
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 7:21 pm

ricardo marty wrote:If BMD made a special flavor of braw for smartphones it would be a great marketing strategy. Braw could work much better than pro res raw because the files are smaller and better suited for a smartphone and regular computers. Of course, it would make Cupertino furious.

Ricardo Marty


Really? I don't see why is will have any benefits. Apple won't use it. Samsung and others will want to make their own codecs.
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Tim Franks

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 6:34 am

Why?
Red tried something similar.
Again why? I think it would be more beneficial if BlackMagic added more support for ProRes and ProRes RAW.


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Darko Djerich

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 7:32 am

Simple fix
BM could just re release Pocket OG and add mobile phone sim card to it to make calls.
Now that would be my go to phone camera providing that battery last bit longer.
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ricardo marty

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 1:17 pm

Darko Djerich wrote:Simple fix
BM could just re release Pocket OG and add mobile phone sim card to it to make calls.
Now that would be my go to phone camera providing that battery last bit longer.


Red stopped the development of the hydrogen phone camera when its CEO and founder proponent retired. Thinking that BMD has not implemented PPraw just cause is very simplistic.

Ricardo Marty
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John Brawley

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 pm

Hey we're confusing ProRes with ProRes RAW.

One of then is a codec recently introduced to an iPhone. One isn't.

One of them will likely NEVER appear on an iPhone because...RED.

There are two ways to encode ProRes. Most of us look at Resolve or FCP and think hey I can make a ProRes file in SOFTWARE.

BUT

When ProRes is in the capture device it's actually encoded IN HARDWARE. Dedicated processors.

This often causes most of the confusion as to why more cameras don't use ProRes. Like BRAW, Cineform and R3D, these all require a hardware solution when working in a capture device like a camera. (and one way that Apple for example control this process so strictly)

Someone has to invest the money into making that hardware. And it's a lot. It's not just some software recycled from somewhere.

And as pointed out earlier, BRAW is tailored to a specific sensor. It requires "tuning" and profiling of that sensor to work properly. You can't just record BRAW in hardware or firmware. BRAW wants' to know what sensor it is that's recording. I think the best example of this was the VERY poor initial BRAW showing of the second generation Sigma FP. BRAW looked terrible on that at launch and as I understand, Sigma just decided to use the same code and they hadn't worked with BMD to update the profile. So it was RAW expecting to work with a gen 1 Sigma sensor but actually being fed a FP G2 sensor.

Kind of like what happens when you use transforms in Resolve and it's for an Alexa, but you've shot on a Sony. You're going to get weird results.

Anyhow, to do BRAW in hardware on a phone, someone has to spend some decent money to do it, because it takes a lot more R&D to make it work.

It is intriguing though because it could be the actual first camera video phone that as a raw-like codec. Someone just has to see the value in doing it.

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Darko Djerich

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostTue Oct 26, 2021 9:40 am

If BMD was actually to create such phone device, which would be amazing and actually revolutionary.
Now that almost everything else is been covered this looks like real next thing.

Here is my US$1499 Pre-order (seriously, BMD, are you listening?)

* 16mm sensor or bigger (Fairchild sensor) 13 stops of DR or more.
* IBIS (if possible)
* 2K or 2.5K BRAW/ProRes recording to micro SD (if this is possible), if not ProRes only.
* single or dual lens 24 mm & 35mm (35mm equivalent) if dual not feasible then single 27mm.(f1.4 - 1.8).
* swappable batteries with min true 60 min recording time.
* 800 + nits screen
* 5G network
* continuous auto focus ( never really asked for this before but it would be handy)
* 3.5mm headphone and mic inputs
* decent audio
* waveforms, audio meters, etc
* simple menu, phone and alarm only.(think Nokia 1610 battery life, we have iPads for internet browsing).
* ability to store and apply/bake LUTs during recording.

Any other clues ??

See if BMD responds.

Order 1 - filled (Darko)
... anyone else ?
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Bromine 18

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostTue Oct 26, 2021 10:12 am

Darko Djerich wrote:Here is my US$1499 Pre-order...


That sounds more like a BMD camera with 5G instead of a smartphone with BRAW – with the only thing missing perhaps is an interchangeable lens mount.

Interesting, but I’d be hesitant because I’d prefer my smartphone to be a phone first, camera second – especially considering it’d be practical to ensure its battery lasts for 24 hours at minimum with moderate–heavy use.

Fascinatingly, it also highlights the fact that contemporary smartphones seem to have become cameras primarily and communication devices secondarily. Not surprising, I guess, because of the manner in which they are marketed and reviewed.

When I’m traveling or engaged in work that puts me wandering for an extended period of time, my phone battery increasingly takes a hit the moment I start using it primarily as a camera.

If the nature of batteries changes fundamentally in a way where their size, capacity, and power draw become agnostic of the device, and they need only be charged once every few days, then I’d be happy if my smartphone doubles as a miniaturized supercomputer with outstanding recording capabilities that make it indistinguishable from a mid-end cinema camera.

Until then of course, we can continue hoping.
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ricardo marty

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostTue Oct 26, 2021 5:01 pm

ake a look at the next sony Xperia pro-1 you might be surprised.

Ricardo Marty
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Darko Djerich

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Re: Braw for smart phones

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 2:33 am

I will never ever buy Sony Xperia phone again.
In fact 3 Sony Xperia phones i owned in the past made me switch to apple.
They used ro overheat, shut down out of the blue, buggy and really unreliable.
No matter how much they improve or if they did.
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