DJI entering the ground cine market!

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John Paines

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 12:26 pm

JonPais wrote:
WahWay wrote:I was thinking of Sam Mendes's "1917" imagine how much a Ronin 4D could have added or reduce production costs if it was around when it was filmed?
Absolutely!

https://www.dji.com/ronin-4d/master


They would never have used it. The mechanized gimbal movement would have been no good for that movie. And given a budget of about $100 million, the difference wouldn't have amounted to lunch.
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John Brawley

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 12:52 pm

WahWay wrote:I was thinking of Sam Mendes's "1917" imagine how much a Ronin 4D could have added or reduce production costs if it was around when it was filmed?



It wouldn’t have been used.

It wouldn’t have been used because you can’t use the same lenses you’re using on your A camera.

It’s unlikely you’d choose to use this camera in this scenario. A Steadicam with a trinity is what this is trying to mimic but let’s not pretend it’s little more than a smaller version of that. It might be useful in certain situations but there’s some very big limitations to using this compared to other options.

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Kim Janson

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:50 pm

It is also, one should not think when it is on gimbal no need to worry about image shakes, and that the DJI Z-axis would do wonders.

A small camera on small gimbal is much more prone for unwanted shakes than a big one with heavy camera. It is just physics.

How gimbal works, it corrects the errors, there must be first an angular error for it to be able to correct it. Big an heavy camera has a lot of inertia and filters the fast shakes, making it easier for gimbal to do the job. This is hugely simplified, but the principle how it is.

This does not mean that big gimbal + camera would automatically be better, in fact there is many problems to be solved, but anyway a big and small system are different. Small system of-course fits tight places and is agile to move.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 1:51 pm

John Brawley wrote:
WahWay wrote:I was thinking of Sam Mendes's "1917" imagine how much a Ronin 4D could have added or reduce production costs if it was around when it was filmed?



It wouldn’t have been used.

It wouldn’t have been used because you can’t use the same lenses you’re using on your A camera.

It’s unlikely you’d choose to use this camera in this scenario. A Steadicam with a trinity is what this is trying to mimic but let’s not pretend it’s little more than a smaller version of that. It might be useful in certain situations but there’s some very big limitations to using this compared to other options.

JB

Not on big budget production in Hollywood like "1917". This is a poor man's solution to big budget gears like the Steadicam with a trinity and the likes of it. Indie projects could fine use for it however there's just too many cameras and options in the market these days. What I am finding is that the technology is not the barrier of entry anymore for new films; it is how much funding and interest you can get for your next film [story].
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 2:28 pm

John Brawley wrote:
WahWay wrote:I was thinking of Sam Mendes's "1917" imagine how much a Ronin 4D could have added or reduce production costs if it was around when it was filmed?



It wouldn’t have been used.

It wouldn’t have been used because you can’t use the same lenses you’re using on your A camera.

It’s unlikely you’d choose to use this camera in this scenario. A Steadicam with a trinity is what this is trying to mimic but let’s not pretend it’s little more than a smaller version of that. It might be useful in certain situations but there’s some very big limitations to using this compared to other options.

JB


Probably not as A cam replacement. There is a lot of explosions involved and I feel they could risk several Ronin 4Ds that they would not with an Alexa Mini.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 2:29 pm

Bromine 18 wrote:
WahWay wrote:I was thinking of Sam Mendes's "1917" imagine how much a Ronin 4D could have added or reduce production costs if it was around when it was filmed?


If only the production costs for Hollywood studio films were significantly influenced by just the type of equipment.

Production of studio films, whether they are large or small, is sharply moulded by longstanding relationships and closed-loop networking forged over decades. This applies not just to Hollywood, but also to other major film industries around the world.

By extension, this also applies to the rest of the cast and crew – social circles come first.

That’s one of the main reasons Arri, and to an extent, Panavision, have been able to sustain dominance for so long – they either have enduring and direct association with major cinematographers or with the rental companies that filmmakers prefer.

It’s not just about the ease of use, affordability, and dependability of camera equipment, but also about trustworthy connections with camera people on whom productions depend on for functioning like a well-oiled machine.

Problem with a few of the working cameras? Here’s our guy from Arri Rental to fix it on the go.

Want a custom lens set designed to your own specifications? Here’s our VP from optical engineering ready to start building them right away.

Gear can’t be fixed? There’s a rental outlet just a few miles away ready to transport replacement equipment within a few hours.

That’s why other camera manufacturers either struggle to make inroads in Hollywood or cannot achieve primacy – why would anyone obliterate established relationships just because new technology is appealing?

I’m fairly certain that even if the Ronin 4D was available back then and 1917’s productions costs could’ve been slashed by half, Roger Deakins – who has an incredibly a close working relationship with Arri – Sam Mendes, and their producing partners wouldn’t have budged about using the Mini LF prototype and other Arri gear.


You are correct. But keep in mind we are the cinematographers of tomorrow. The same relationships and gear our predecessors forged and used before us, we are doing the same now. The difference is there is more innovation and tools to choose from. I believe more of us are open minded to using new tech in this day and age than the people that came before us.

So hypothetically if 1917 was shot in 2025, we may very well see a ronin 4d on set. Or the new blackmagic camera “thingamagig” The industry is changing. Just like it transitioned from film to digital. One thing is constant, they want to maximize profit by cutting production costs. If a tool sometime in the near future is reliable enough and cuts costs, they wont hesitate to use it. It will start with one brave soul. If it works, then rest of the industry will soon follow.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 3:54 pm

Donnell Henry wrote:The same relationships and gear our predecessors forged and used before us, we are doing the same now.


Seems like DJI are aware of it, and that’s why Rachel Morrison, Erik Messerschmidt, and Claudio Miranda have cropped up in their marketing.

How successful they are at forging working relationships in the coming decades remains to be seen.

Red appear to have achieved some ascendance with respect to establishing connections with directors and cinematographers in Hollywood, and are on the heels of Arri and Panavision.

Sony, Canon, and Panasonic have tried it as well in the past, but with limited success.

Though I have to say of late, Sony’s fortunes seem to be turning – their close affiliation with James Cameron is legendary and going strong, and it looks as if the sports world and cinematographers, DITs, and colourists working in TV and streaming are increasingly embracing the Venice, especially the Rialto Extension System.

Donnell Henry wrote:One thing is constant, they want to maximize profit by cutting production costs. If a tool sometime in the near future is reliable enough and cuts costs, they wont hesitate to use it.


That’s only partially true – here again, familiarity with people and equipment gets precedence over cutting production costs and adopting a new tool. Else, they’d all be filming on camcorders.

Plus, there’s always significant drive to maintain the status quo as opposed to breaking it entirely, no matter how cutting-edge some tech might be.

Also the same reason why the industry decided to cut down the costs of using photochemical film, but ironically decided that using digital cameras, made by their preferred camera maker, going for hundreds of thousands of dollars in buying or renting was perfectly fine.

Donnell Henry wrote:It will start with one brave soul. If it works, then rest of the industry will soon follow.

Nice sentiment and I applaud you for it, but it’s too idealistic for our world. Hope you’re right in the long term.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 4:06 pm

Donnell Henry wrote:You are correct. But keep in mind we are the cinematographers of tomorrow. The same relationships and gear our predecessors forged and used before us, we are doing the same now. The difference is there is more innovation and tools to choose from. I believe more of us are open minded to using new tech in this day and age than the people that came before us.

Arri and Panavision will continue to innovate as well for the cinematographers of tomorrow. If there is a budget, you go with what's tried and true. In Hollywood, it's not about savings in [gear] cost, it is about making production operate in a consistent and well established manner. Keep in mind that the A-Lister and well known directors salaries alone, when combined cost the production so much more than all the equipment and crew there is on set.

Donnell Henry wrote: So hypothetically if 1917 was shot in 2025, we may very well see a ronin 4d on set. Or the new blackmagic camera “thingamagig” The industry is changing. Just like it transitioned from film to digital. One thing is constant, they want to maximize profit by cutting production costs. If a tool sometime in the near future is reliable enough and cuts costs, they wont hesitate to use it. It will start with one brave soul. If it works, then rest of the industry will soon follow.

Yes, as a C-cam or crash cam. No one wants to loose their job for a measly gear that is cheap to save the cost which they would spend on a day's catered lunch. ;)
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John Brawley

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm

It’s total marketing.

If they had *really* been developing these tools with these DPs then they would have used them. These examples of them using this tool are all for show. They are paid for by DJI. There’s no content that they are using it on. Like 1917 used the trinity. Where is the big move thats used this tool while it’s been developed over the past three years ?

I know Erik and his B camera operator from his last movie is my current operator. They would have used it. But they used a Ronin with a Komodo for the kinds of shots you would use. I bet there isn’t a single use of it in the Fincher film hes shooting in Paris right now.

I know Rachel. She just directed an episode of The Morning Show. She doesn’t even take DP jobs and hasn’t for a couple of years now.

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Donnell Henry

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 10:55 pm

John and Ellory. I agree with you both. John you know better than anyone here where this industry is headed. Now especially with additional Covid cost. Production Insurance is rising to cover delayed production. As well as labor disputes, most recently IATSE. We’re seeing a lot of companies going after smaller budgeted productions. But i will hold true to the my basic sentiment on where the industry is headed. They will take more chances to cut costs in the near future. And in those chances you will see new tech being used that would not otherwise had gotten a chance to be used on set. John as for DJI yes, it’s clearly paid marketing. But the idea behind this camera is still worth taking a look. I’m a cinematographer. If this makes my job easier and it’s proven reliable in the field I’m going to use it. ⚠️ Warning Shameless plug upcoming.. So i was the cinematographer on a little Doc called Content is King. You can read a little about here on Deadline. https://deadline.com/2020/12/taryn-mann ... 234656673/
I could’ve had Arri or Red for the production. I talked them into using a different camera. Guess what i shot 60% of the Doc on? A pocket 4k. 40% Ursa G2. They never even considered blackmagic. It helped to bring the cost down. Now they’re asking for it on their next production. ;)
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 22, 2021 11:11 pm

So which DP is not paid or not got freebies to advertise for a particular brand? :lol:
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 3:42 am

I only see this being used for Walk & talk for television.
Saw some tests from cineD with the Ronin 4D mounted on shoulder and it worked really good.

Lidar and stuff are okay for this.

Corporate and television will use it for this with TV presenter doing face cams etc, that's fore sure.

For the rest (actual movie / comercial sets etc) the limited lens choice, limited Dynamic Range, limited Codec (prores raw = no Resolve) won't be much interesting I think
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 3:54 am

Nathan_H wrote:I only see this being used for Walk & talk for television.
Saw some tests from cineD with the Ronin 4D mounted on shoulder and it worked really good.

Lidar and stuff are okay for this.

Corporate and television will use it for this with TV presenter doing face cams etc, that's fore sure.

For the rest (actual movie / comercial sets etc) the limited lens choice, limited Dynamic Range, limited Codec (prores raw = no Resolve) won't be much interesting I think
Let's get this straight: you're claiming the D4 is going to be picked up primarily for broadcast television?

And you're seriously saying 13-14 stops of dynamic range is limiting?

The D4 has swappable lens mounts and is able to swing just about every lens in my collection, from the 20mm f/1.8 G to the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN Art - the so called 'narrative' focal lengths - barring the 135mm f/1.8 GM.

More compatible lenses and lens mounts are certainly in the future.

As for your contention that the D4 has limited codecs, it so happens that ProRes RAW is supported by Avid's Media Composer - according to data that is admittedly dated, among the most-used NLEs on prime-time TV productions.

ProRes RAW is also compatible with two of the three NLEs mentioned by Netflix/Dolby, including Baselight.

The number of cameras that are able to record PRR is expected to climb to 43 by December 2022 and it's estimated that there will be 2,683 monthly activations by the first quarter of 2023.

I'm not employed in broadcast television, so correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, they have little use for RAW and BRAW would be out of the question. Everyone cool their jets if I'm mistaken, as I don't work in broadcast television!

The D4 also records ProRes, which happens to be among the most popular intermediate codecs in the industry, as well as plain old h.264. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound too restrictive to my way of thinking.
Last edited by JonPais on Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 4:18 am

It’s total marketing.

If they had *really* been developing these tools with these DPs then they would have used them. These examples of them using this tool are all for show. They are paid for by DJI. There’s no content that they are using it on. Like 1917 used the trinity. Where is the big move thats used this tool while it’s been developed over the past three years?


Some might argue that it's the exact same thing with yourself and Blackmagic...

Not having a go at you at all mate, I wish I was in your successful position, but I mean BM seem to name drop you a fair bit no?

I don't see the URSA 12K being used all that much compared to the other big hitters. Not that I lose sleep over that fact, just merely pointing it out.

Again please don't take this as an attack or anything silly. Merely drawing lines of similarity.

The BM marketing material is notorious for creating the perfect situations. Have you seen their over photoshopped set images that market their gear??
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 4:20 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:
It’s total marketing.

If they had *really* been developing these tools with these DPs then they would have used them. These examples of them using this tool are all for show. They are paid for by DJI. There’s no content that they are using it on. Like 1917 used the trinity. Where is the big move thats used this tool while it’s been developed over the past three years?


Some might argue that it's the exact same thing with yourself and Blackmagic...

Not having a go at you at all mate, I wish I was in your successful position, but I mean BM seem to name drop you a fair bit no?

I don't see the URSA 12K being used all that much compared to the other big hitters. Not that I lose sleep over that fact, just merely pointing it out.

Again please don't take this as an attack or anything silly. Merely drawing lines of similarity.

The BM marketing material is notorious for creating the perfect situations. Have you seen their over photoshopped set images that market their gear??
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Travis Hodgkinson

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 4:34 am

I think the RD4 is a wicked camera system hybrid. I believe you could make money with it, I'd definitely wait for the price to drop though as stated before.
I hope it causes massive industry disruption! I want companies like BM and DJI to challenge the big wigs out there. Means "more" for us creatives :)
I've always dreamt of working on a massive set with 30 crew members etc, I don't think I'll actually ever get there, and well that's ok for me. I can still have just as much fun doing my own thing or with a very small crew. Still get chills when a director or myself yells action! haha.
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John Brawley

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 5:11 am

Travis Hodgkinson wrote:
It’s total marketing.

If they had *really* been developing these tools with these DPs then they would have used them. These examples of them using this tool are all for show. They are paid for by DJI. There’s no content that they are using it on. Like 1917 used the trinity. Where is the big move thats used this tool while it’s been developed over the past three years?


Some might argue that it's the exact same thing with yourself and Blackmagic...

Not having a go at you at all mate, I wish I was in your successful position, but I mean BM seem to name drop you a fair bit no?

I don't see the URSA 12K being used all that much compared to the other big hitters. Not that I lose sleep over that fact, just merely pointing it out.

Again please don't take this as an attack or anything silly. Merely drawing lines of similarity.

The BM marketing material is notorious for creating the perfect situations. Have you seen their over photoshopped set images that market their gear??


I don’t have anything to do with the marketing images that they create. I’m not exactly profiled or showing up in marketing images or adverts.

I’m not an Oscar winner or Oscar nominee. I’m not an opinion leader. I have a modest following on IG.

I don’t get paid by BMD. I have tested early versions of cameras. Sometimes that footage gets released as demonstration footage. They don’t pay me for this though I do pay a crew and models of course. I also have long standing personal friendships with many at BMD from before it was BMD or they worked there.

I organise and produce all of that content. There’s no brief that I’m following. It’s not directed, produced or conceived for any kind of marketing bullet points. It’s essentially product testing. I’ve don’t this quite a few times with content that never sees the light of day for BMD. They cover the cost of making that content and that’s all. I am not paid for the actual time I invest in it.

Or the time I spend here. Helping people like you. Remember? That was free. I spent my time here writing posts like this for free.

I do this for other companies products as well. At most I might get to keep prototype cameras or lenses.

I am a working DP. I actually use these products. By choice. I have a long history of doing so with this brand of camera.

I’m also camera agnostic.

Currently shooting Alexa Mini LF with 12k and micros.

Previous movie was Alexa Mini with 12k.

Last show was DXL2 with Komodo and 12k

Show before that was 12k and DJI Mavic

Show before that was Alexa SXT and G2 with phantom.

I dont get paid to make content and sprout superlatives shot by a DJI produced BTS crew which is what DJI did here.

If they really had done what they have said they had done then there would have already been films or shows shot with this. There aren’t. But they did hire some “personalities” to shoot with this new product and say nice things. Has Rachel or Erik used these on real jobs? I’m 99% sure they haven’t.

I have been offered money by brands to be an ambassador and I’ve always turned it down, because I like to be able to speak my mind.

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Kim Janson

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 5:18 am

About the Ronin 4D, if that would be without any gimbal, would you be interested? Maybe they should have made the gimbal optional or at least a version that does not have the gimbal?
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 6:03 am

I must admit I would not know who John Brawley is if it was not for his association with Blackmagic and its probably the same for most of us pros, amateurs. hobbyists, geeks, etc, and being noticed usually enhances your chance in finding work in this industry. You might not be paid directly but getting your name out there is just as if not more important than monetary value.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 8:10 am

John Brawley wrote:
Travis Hodgkinson wrote:
It’s total marketing.

If they had *really* been developing these tools with these DPs then they would have used them. These examples of them using this tool are all for show. They are paid for by DJI. There’s no content that they are using it on. Like 1917 used the trinity. Where is the big move thats used this tool while it’s been developed over the past three years?


Some might argue that it's the exact same thing with yourself and Blackmagic...

Not having a go at you at all mate, I wish I was in your successful position, but I mean BM seem to name drop you a fair bit no?

I don't see the URSA 12K being used all that much compared to the other big hitters. Not that I lose sleep over that fact, just merely pointing it out.

Again please don't take this as an attack or anything silly. Merely drawing lines of similarity.

The BM marketing material is notorious for creating the perfect situations. Have you seen their over photoshopped set images that market their gear??


I don’t have anything to do with the marketing images that they create. I’m not exactly profiled or showing up in marketing images or adverts.

I’m not an Oscar winner or Oscar nominee. I’m not an opinion leader. I have a modest following on IG.

I don’t get paid by BMD. I have tested early versions of cameras. Sometimes that footage gets released as demonstration footage. They don’t pay me for this though I do pay a crew and models of course. I also have long standing personal friendships with many at BMD from before it was BMD or they worked there.

I organise and produce all of that content. There’s no brief that I’m following. It’s not directed, produced or conceived for any kind of marketing bullet points. It’s essentially product testing. I’ve don’t this quite a few times with content that never sees the light of day for BMD. They cover the cost of making that content and that’s all. I am not paid for the actual time I invest in it.

Or the time I spend here. Helping people like you. Remember? That was free. I spent my time here writing posts like this for free.

I do this for other companies products as well. At most I might get to keep prototype cameras or lenses.

I am a working DP. I actually use these products. By choice. I have a long history of doing so with this brand of camera.

I’m also camera agnostic.

Currently shooting Alexa Mini LF with 12k and micros.

Previous movie was Alexa Mini with 12k.

Last show was DXL2 with Komodo and 12k

Show before that was 12k and DJI Mavic

Show before that was Alexa SXT and G2 with phantom.

I dont get paid to make content and sprout superlatives shot by a DJI produced BTS crew which is what DJI did here.

If they really had done what they have said they had done then there would have already been films or shows shot with this. There aren’t. But they did hire some “personalities” to shoot with this new product and say nice things. Has Rachel or Erik used these on real jobs? I’m 99% sure they haven’t.

I have been offered money by brands to be an ambassador and I’ve always turned it down, because I like to be able to speak my mind.

JB


Thank you for being so transparent and for the time it took you to mention so many points.

Like many, I too greatly appreciate your input and value your opinions.

Regarding BM, like all businesses, they're in it to make money at the end of the day. So however they go about that is totally up to them. Apropos their marketing imagery, I just find it laughable. Again just my opinion on this matter. Do the images look dope as heck, hell yeah they do! At the end of the day they're designed to sell product, though there is definitely an element of, "look cool with these products" just like most tech companies these days.

Getting this topic back on the road, I hope these new cameras by DJI get a lot of positive feedback and respect, this sort of tech is incredible. Whether they replace dinkum cine gear is a different topic in my mind. At the end of the day, the more tools we have to choose from, the better.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 9:00 am

I'm confused - because IMDb lists Rachel Morrison as cinematographer most recently on VAX LIVE: The Concert to Reunite the World (TV Special) (2021) and Homemade (TV Series) (1 episode) (2020). So it would appear, that unless I am grossly mistaken, that she actually has been behind the camera in the past couple of years - regardless of whatever her title might have been in the list of credits. Is there more than one Rachel Morrison? What if she hasn't been a DP in a couple of years - would that make her opinions any less credible?

Once again, please don't shout at me if I'm being stupid, I'm just looking at IMDb here. However that may be, it seems to me that she's eminently qualified to give her opinion on the 4D, and while my hearing might not be what it used to be, she doesn't say anything outrageous or anything. She likes the ND filters, she likes the stabilization. AFAIK, the DPs in the launch video thought the 4D was an intriguing concept. As I'm sure did many of the millions of viewers on the day of the announcement.

I'm not familiar with the other directors, but I've watched a ton of videos with Erik Messerschmidt as a guest and I don't think he would intentionally deceive anyone; so when he talks about things like color, detail, banding, dynamic range, highlight roll off and color response in low light, among other things, I believe he is sharing his honest opinion. He's also extremely specific when describing where he notices these things in the video he shot, and includes extra information about the viewing conditions (Dolby Vision PQ), - which someone who was not being 100% straightforward would be unlikely to do.

I'm a little bewildered here, because I don't recall DJI claiming that the cinematographers who participated in the launch video had been working with the 4D for years on various paid jobs using all the different prototypes of the 4D and giving feedback. What my weary eyes read was that starting from launch day, DJI would be working closely with the select group of talented cinematographers featured in the video on upcoming works. DJI does not say that the leading cinematographers who've been testing prototype after prototype and giving constant feedback, and working with DJI on the development of the Ronin 4D were the same ones who are featured in the launch video - the language seems fairly clear on that point. Some or all of them very well might have, but it is not explicitly stated anywhere that I could see. In my world, it's also possible to test equipment and give feedback without necessarily using a product on a 200 million dollar film anyhow.

If I'm way off base here, please let me know.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 12:51 pm

Guys let’s stick to the points here. Reading some of the comments here. I believe everyone do have some degree of fact when it comes to DJI and Blackmagic in their posts. John is right in saying that they are shilling the hell out of the camera. Some of the DP’s seen on the promo have yet to use it in a major production. But believe me when I say it will happen very soon. I bet DJI is working on that as I type this. Now this is a Blackmagic forum. And because all of my cameras are Blackmagic, it’s only fitting that I say i want to see Blackmagic grow further, push the tech like they did with the new 12K sensor. Speaking only for myself I would want to see other features added to upcoming BM cameras that would make my job easier. Small Example - Wireless transmission from camera to monitor. If DJI can do it. Better believe Blackmagic can. DJI has a good idea and I can see myself using that product for action/fighting shots. But I would still be using my BM cameras for most things.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 2:23 pm

Let’s stay on topic here, mates.

Attack the argument, but spare the person. A cesspool of vitriol won’t help anyone learn about diverse viewpoints.

JB – a suggestion out of deference to cushion the blows. Completely in favour of assertiveness, but maybe a little bit less of condescension, dogmatism, and infallibility.

Kim Janson wrote:About the Ronin 4D, if that would be without any gimbal, would you be interested? Maybe they should have made the gimbal optional or at least a version that does not have the gimbal?


I was thinking along the same lines. It appears DJI stopped just short of making it fully modular with their own line of gimbals. Probably because of the z-axis arm’s limited payload capacity.

It also seems like they’re starting to take the Arri route – create a relatively exclusive ecosystem including the sensor, lenses, and support gear.

I’m also thinking about whether a side-protruding double arm, like a steadicam’s, instead of a front-protruding arm, may have been better at eliminating unintended x-axis bumps.

The sample footage shows that there still is some limitation with respect to strong vertical and horizontal knocks. Whether that’s due to operator error or choosing the wrong mode is unclear.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 2:41 pm

JonPais wrote:I'm confused - because IMDb lists Rachel Morrison as cinematographer most recently on VAX LIVE: The Concert to Reunite the World (TV Special) (2021) and Homemade (TV Series) (1 episode) (2020). So it would appear, that unless I am grossly mistaken,


This is what often happens with you. You trawl for internet facts and draw your own conclusions to support whatever point you’re trying to make.

Rachel ALSO directed both the titles you listed.

They are both COVID titles. One is literally called homemade. They are all directors shooting their own stuff.

But hey anything to make a point with you right? If it makes you feel better she sometimes operated on the morning show. It’s uncredited. You’ll just have to take my word for it.

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSat Oct 23, 2021 2:47 pm

John Brawley wrote:
JonPais wrote:I'm confused - because IMDb lists Rachel Morrison as cinematographer most recently on VAX LIVE: The Concert to Reunite the World (TV Special) (2021) and Homemade (TV Series) (1 episode) (2020). So it would appear, that unless I am grossly mistaken,


This is what often happens with you. You trawl for internet facts and draw your own conclusions to support whatever point you’re trying to make.

Rachel ALSO directed both the titles you listed.

They are both COVID titles. One is literally called homemade. They are all directors shooting their own stuff.

But hey anything to make a point with you right? If it makes you feel better she sometimes operated on the morning show. It’s uncredited. You’ll just have to take my word for it.

JB
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostSun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am

Completely edited:

DJI has been very exclusive with the drones, now with camera system. It seems it has worked pretty well for them.

The problem I see, in a year or two there is new version of it, better sensor, faster processor, better gimbal... and the whole system needs to be changed. Also something breaks and the hole system is down.

[quote="Bromine 18"...
It also seems like they’re starting to take the Arri route – create a relatively exclusive ecosystem including the sensor, lenses, and support gear.

...

The sample footage shows that there still is some limitation with respect to strong vertical and horizontal knocks. Whether that’s due to operator error or choosing the wrong mode is unclear.[/quote]
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 1:03 pm

Let's get this straight: you're claiming the D4 is going to be picked up primarily for broadcast television?

And you're seriously saying 13-14 stops of dynamic range is limiting?

The D4 has swappable lens mounts and is able to swing just about every lens in my collection, from the 20mm f/1.8 G to the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN Art - the so called 'narrative' focal lengths - barring the 135mm f/1.8 GM.


These are not the lens you see in motion pictures. Using a Cooke S4 or a Leica SUMMICRON-C, PANAVISION GLASS etc with this camera will eliminate the use of the 4D Arm and so limits it's own purpose.

I don't say it's a bad camera, it's just that for me it will be used in television and indie / youtube narrative and sport oriented brand content. No picture that I've seen from this camera has me super impressed, whereas it as Image IQ or in terms of Stabilisation.

Time will tell, it's a new tool, and a V1 for such a production.



As for your contention that the D4 has limited codecs, it so happens that ProRes RAW is supported by Avid's Media Composer - according to data that is admittedly dated, among the most-used NLEs on prime-time TV productions.

ProRes RAW is also compatible with two of the three NLEs mentioned by Netflix/Dolby, including Baselight.

The number of cameras that are able to record PRR is expected to climb to 43 by December 2022 and it's estimated that there will be 2,683 monthly activations by the first quarter of 2023.

I'm not employed in broadcast television, so correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, they have little use for RAW and BRAW would be out of the question. Everyone cool their jets if I'm mistaken, as I don't work in broadcast television!


In France, where I live and work, no television will accept PRORESRAW or 4K as it is.
Most TV Channel don't produce much themself, but rely on production compagny that handle the shooting and post production themself.
4K Prores is the maximum I would see 90% of the production use for television while I think 50% would still shoot 1080P.

Still no intégration of proresraw in Davinci, this is everything for me.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 1:26 pm

Nathan_H wrote:
Let's get this straight: you're claiming the D4 is going to be picked up primarily for broadcast television?

And you're seriously saying 13-14 stops of dynamic range is limiting?

The D4 has swappable lens mounts and is able to swing just about every lens in my collection, from the 20mm f/1.8 G to the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN Art - the so called 'narrative' focal lengths - barring the 135mm f/1.8 GM.


These are not the lens you see in motion pictures. Using a Cooke S4 or a Leica SUMMICRON-C, PANAVISION GLASS etc with this camera will eliminate the use of the 4D Arm and so limits it's own purpose.

I don't say it's a bad camera, it's just that for me it will be used in television and indie / youtube narrative and sport oriented brand content. No picture that I've seen from this camera has me super impressed, whereas it as Image IQ or in terms of Stabilisation.

Time will tell, it's a new tool, and a V1 for such a production.



As for your contention that the D4 has limited codecs, it so happens that ProRes RAW is supported by Avid's Media Composer - according to data that is admittedly dated, among the most-used NLEs on prime-time TV productions.

ProRes RAW is also compatible with two of the three NLEs mentioned by Netflix/Dolby, including Baselight.

The number of cameras that are able to record PRR is expected to climb to 43 by December 2022 and it's estimated that there will be 2,683 monthly activations by the first quarter of 2023.

I'm not employed in broadcast television, so correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, they have little use for RAW and BRAW would be out of the question. Everyone cool their jets if I'm mistaken, as I don't work in broadcast television!


In France, where I live and work, no television will accept PRORESRAW or 4K as it is.
Most TV Channel don't produce much themself, but rely on production compagny that handle the shooting and post production themself.
4K Prores is the maximum I would see 90% of the production use for television while I think 50% would still shoot 1080P.

Still no intégration of proresraw in Davinci, this is everything for me.
You failed to explain why 13-14 stops of dynamic range rules out the 4D for serious use. Would you care to elaborate?

I exclusively shoot ProRes RAW, convert to ProRes 4444 and edit in DaVinci. It plays smoothly and the image quality is gorgeous.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 1:58 pm

Nathan_H wrote:
Let's get this straight: you're claiming the D4 is going to be picked up primarily for broadcast television?

And you're seriously saying 13-14 stops of dynamic range is limiting?

The D4 has swappable lens mounts and is able to swing just about every lens in my collection, from the 20mm f/1.8 G to the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN Art - the so called 'narrative' focal lengths - barring the 135mm f/1.8 GM.


These are not the lens you see in motion pictures. Using a Cooke S4 or a Leica SUMMICRON-C, PANAVISION GLASS etc with this camera will eliminate the use of the 4D Arm and so limits it's own purpose.



Exactly.

It’s laughable to think that larger scale shows would adopt this platform with such a narro range of lenses available.

That’s the problem. Very limited lens options. Look at what can work on this rig and then go find a film or series that shoots those lenses.

Not saying it won’t happen. But that’s the first big hurdle for me when I look at this platform.

And ProRes raw.

No camera existing today can record it. It can only be recorded using external devices. That is not a codec with a future.

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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostWed Oct 27, 2021 2:25 pm

John Brawley wrote:
Nathan_H wrote:
Let's get this straight: you're claiming the D4 is going to be picked up primarily for broadcast television?

And you're seriously saying 13-14 stops of dynamic range is limiting?

The D4 has swappable lens mounts and is able to swing just about every lens in my collection, from the 20mm f/1.8 G to the Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN Art - the so called 'narrative' focal lengths - barring the 135mm f/1.8 GM.


These are not the lens you see in motion pictures. Using a Cooke S4 or a Leica SUMMICRON-C, PANAVISION GLASS etc with this camera will eliminate the use of the 4D Arm and so limits it's own purpose.



Exactly.

It’s laughable to think that larger scale shows would adopt this platform with such a narro range of lenses available.

That’s the problem. Very limited lens options. Look at what can work on this rig and then go find a film or series that shoots those lenses.

Not saying it won’t happen. But that’s the first big hurdle for me when I look at this platform.

And ProRes raw.

No camera existing today can record it. It can only be recorded using external devices. That is not a codec with a future.

JB
I don't recall anyone here forecasting that the 4D would be replacing ARRI or Panavision as the A camera on the sets of Hollywood blockbusters, so I fail to see what is so laughable.

Donovan Davis, Sr. Product Specialist, DJI, says he sees the 4D as a supplementary camera on medium range productions, which does not sound so far-fetched to me.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostThu Oct 28, 2021 7:54 am

We are questionning a new tool and trying to find it's purpose... that's all
It's a new kind of camera, a new tool, that's just normal.

13 stops is good enough for most situation especialy when you are in a controlled enviromment.

Now do an outdoor shooting with a camera with more lattitude, and you'll see that's so much nicer and easier to work with.

And that's exactly my point about the DJI RONIN 4D:

We are in 2021, DJI comes with a FF sensor that shoot raws with a gimbal and autofocus integrated This screams to me : run n gun / exterior shooting
It's coming with a not well integrated codec (davinci) "only" 13 Stops.

This is a bit deceaving, but I will definitly check this new tool if i have to occasion.

To finish on Image Quality:
I don't know if it's the codec, the color grading, the lens,the camera or a bit of everything but most of the footage that I've seen, have some kind of "oversharppening" to it, that neeeds to be adressed. (Just like a default setting Mavic)

Now for workflow, it's great if it works for you but converting Proresraw to Prores 444 is time intensive and cost a lot of space.
In my case and in the production that I work this wouldn't be possible and I would shoot in Prores at first, and if I choose ortherwise my Producer would ask me to do so, to save money and time.

Each one takes on this.
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Re: DJI entering the ground cine market!

PostFri Oct 29, 2021 1:09 am

You'd be mistaken in believing that ProRes RAW has no future. In fact, as has been pointed out earlier, by 2023, as many as 50 cameras will support ProRes RAW - by every single major Japanese camera manufacturer and beyond! From Fuji medium format costing 10 grand to a bunch of full frame 8K cameras to DJI drones. Three million shipments of mirrorless cameras yearly worldwide = BIG opportunity!

Atomos seized that opportunity, which is why they're the fastest selling monitors of the nearly 500 that are listed over at the N. America's largest independent electronics retailer, and ProRes RAW activations have increased by 450% over last year. Hardly a mirrorless camera gets announced before it is affirmed that it will support ProRes RAW! Cinema cameras from the Canon C300 Mark II to the Panasonic EVA1 to Z-Cam to Sony, support ProRes RAW.

Nikon's powerhouse Z9 will shoot not only its own 12-bit RAW internally, but also ProRes RAW HQ - internally! Curiously, no mention anywhere of Blackmagic RAW. I can see people crapping their pants as more & more mirrorless and cinema cameras begin supporting ProRes RAW internal. ProRes RAW edits like butter on the new M1 Max MacBook Pros!

A half dozen or more NLEs already support ProRes RAW and that number will only grow. It is already compatible with two of the three NLEs mentioned by Netflix/Dolby.

Most camera LCDs are crap; most mirrorless cameras lack decent exposure tools; and no camera has the HDR PQ mode found on the Ninja V. Even if you don't have paying clients, people are impressed when they see the cage and monitor - they equate it with professionalism, like it or not.

And contrary to what has been claimed, cinema camera owners do in fact use external monitors. Some cinema cameras even record RAW externally. Whether or not Blackmagic eventually adds ProRes RAW to DaVinci Resolve or whether it ends up being used on high end films, the future of ProRes RAW is sufficiently secure. Come to think of it, I can't recall seeing a single feature film or Netflix Original shot on Blackmagic RAW. Or with a Blackmagic camera either, for that matter! And I'm a binge watcher.

To return to the DJI, footage I've seen shot with ordinary ProRes looked excellent, no over-sharpening at all, either. The footage I downloaded from DJI's website was really organic, with nice color, very film-like and not over-sharpened either. In college, I specialized in non-silver historical printing processes and color separation gravure, and the footage gave me that vibe - def. not digital looking.
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